RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (Full Version)

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Sanity -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:16:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


"Electric" locomotives that run in places where there are no over-head electric lines generally run on electricity that is produced by a diesel engine.

Also, most electricity produced in this country is produced using coal. So, in a big way, trains still run on coal (especially the electric ones that run on over-head lines like the Northeast Corridor Line).







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?


Right, its diesel that powers the generators 99.999% of the time




Tkman117 -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:22:42 PM)

That is not always going to be the case. You can't seem to look beyond what is here and now. Yes, at the moment things in general are powered by gasoline. But given a proper transition over time, it won't always be that way, and if you think it will then that's extremely gullible and narrow sighted of you.




Sanity -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:28:53 PM)

Right here, right now, oil can easily provide cheap, abundant energy along with many other important products, and everywhere you look leftists are busting their asses trying to stop the flow

With women, children, the elderly, minorities and the poor (as always with radical leftist policies) being hardest hit







DesideriScuri -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:37:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
And I was only asking you to spoon feed because you clearly know something I don't, and I can't seem to find it.


Perhaps it's where you're looking?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Well, considering big news about replacing coal with renewables isn't filling the headlines...







DesideriScuri -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:40:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The President has little ability to impact the price of gasoline. There's plenty of shit to pile on Obama, but this isn't one of those turds.

Bullshit
Placing oil fields off limits through executive order, putting off the pipeline decision forever, directing his EPA goons and his IRS goons etc to crack down on every aspect of the energy industry, etc, are but a few of the ways Obama has driven fuel prices (and food prices, and electricity prices etc) to a six year high

US oil production is at an all time high at about 11 million bbls. a day. So talk about bullshit. Gas exports to prop up the price are at or near all time highs.
Obama has done none of the above as also reflected by all time high oil production from the gulf and in fact more off shore leasing then at any time. The pres. can't force them to drill and the oil co. doesn't want to yet, it may bring the price of oil down hey ??
Get a grip man.

Unless something drastic has happened in the last 3 months, we aren't much over 8.2 million bpd.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m

Ok one link included and the one I read before may have included ALL oil related liquids.
Here
Petroleum production, including crude oil and related liquids, known as condensate, and natural gas liquids (NGLs) such as ethane, was 11.27m barrels per day in April, almost equalling the peak of 11.3m b/d reached as an average for 1970. Recent growth rates suggest that it has now exceeded that figure.


Your self-correction has been noted. "Oil production" and "petroleum production" are not the same.




HunterS -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:44:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Right, its diesel that powers the generators 99.999% of the time


Do you really believe that the U.S. does not have any nuclear or hydro power?




HunterS -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:45:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

With women, children, the elderly, minorities and the poor (as always with radical leftist policies) being hardest hit



Why do you care?




HunterS -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 1:49:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Also, most electricity produced in this country is produced using coal. So, in a big way, trains still run on coal (especially the electric ones that run on over-head lines like the Northeast Corridor Line).



Were you aware that the amount of fuel needed to run a power plant to run an electric train is less than if the train burned the fuel, by several orders of magnitude. So it would appear that all you have proved is that you are not being truthful.




Tkman117 -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 2:05:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Right here, right now, oil can easily provide cheap, abundant energy along with many other important products, and everywhere you look leftists are busting their asses trying to stop the flow

With women, children, the elderly, minorities and the poor (as always with radical leftist policies) being hardest hit






And the proof is where? I haven't heard so much BS in my entire life. I agree, oil can provide abundant energy, although haven't you noticed gas prices rising? Not so cheap. And why wouldn't we want stop the flow? That crap is quite literally that, crap. There are other methods for generating electricity, and a slow transition over time into those types of electricity generating technologies wouldn't result in anything less than a hiccup. How is that in any way radical?




Tkman117 -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 2:06:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
And I was only asking you to spoon feed because you clearly know something I don't, and I can't seem to find it.


Perhaps it's where you're looking?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Well, considering big news about replacing coal with renewables isn't filling the headlines...






So why dont you provide the info if you know where everything is?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 2:11:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
And I was only asking you to spoon feed because you clearly know something I don't, and I can't seem to find it.

Perhaps it's where you're looking?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Well, considering big news about replacing coal with renewables isn't filling the headlines...

So why dont you provide the info if you know where everything is?


Sorry, I lost my spoon. You want answers? Go find them. If you are going to whine that you can't find the answers, and all you do is look at headlines, well, MM is going to spank your ass every time.

ETA: I never said I know where everything is. Apparently, though, everything isn't contained in headlines...




Tkman117 -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 2:12:48 PM)

With what? Unsupported claims? Cmon man, I'm in school for science. If I make claims, I back them up. Otherwise I might as well admit I'm full of shit.

And if you guys can't even do that, then what does that say about your claims?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 3:37:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
With what? Unsupported claims? Cmon man, I'm in school for science. If I make claims, I back them up. Otherwise I might as well admit I'm full of shit.
And if you guys can't even do that, then what does that say about your claims?


Other than using your own posts to show how terrible your searches are, what claims have I made?






MercTech -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 6:09:28 PM)

Electrical generation.... types.

Hydroelectric - cheapest method but huge permanent environmental impact. And, quite geographically limited.

Nuclear - second cheapest and minimal environmental impact if you take into account that the hazards are controlled.. even at the cost of the controls.

Coal and Oil fired plants - most common in the U.S. overall. Huge battle over adding precipitators, cyclone separators, etc. Coal tends to blow all trace elements out the stack that exist in the coal seam... uranium ore, cadmium, lead, mercury. Oil fired uses bunker fuel which is mainly low purity grade diesel. The basic design of most goes back to the 1920s using a burner front to tube and shell boiler to make steam to turn a turbine.

Natural gas... as with coal and oil, burner front to steam. A separate category and not as common outside gas rich areas due to the need for pipelines for transport. Although, some remote installations use tanker ships to bring in LNG for a power plant. Much more clean burning than oil or coal plants.

Gas Turbine Power Plants - good for peak loading but quite expensive and persnickety to operate. Uses massive amounts of jet aircraft grade fuel. These were a fad investment right after the electric power industry was de-regulated in the 1990s.

Wind farms - very useful if you can use a variable power generation system that is geographically limited. A good deal for remote communities to minimize how much power they need to buy from the grid but too variable for base loads or industrial applications.

Solar arrays - a bit geographically limited (never work on the wet side of the Pacific Northwest). Good for relocating small electric load needs. With current technological levels never generate as much energy as it requires to manufacture the panels.

Tidal power - see wind farms. Geographically limited and variable.

Geothermal - pilot plats work!... for a while. The problem with mineral fouling of systems reducing efficiency very quickly has not, to my knowledge, been successfully managed. And you need to locate plants in areas of geothermal activity which are prone to rapid shifts of terrain with little to no warning... yep, earthquakes. <grin>

I keep hearing "we need to change to renewable energy sources" touted. The thing is, what IS that source of renewable energy? The methods we have to work with all have a downside.

If we had to build the infrastructure from scratch; we really don't need the massive continent spanning electrical grid of the Westinghouse model that was adopted in the 1930s. Domestic loads (what they call the power demands of family homes and apartments) can readily be supplied by either individual generation systems or community systems. I'm talking combinations of solar, wind, hydroelectric, and even diesel engine driven generation. But, without the grid, industrial loads would of necessity cluster around high power density generation facilities. Think industrial cities around places like Hoover Dam, Bonneville Dam, and Niagra Falls. The large cities away from the power could not support heavy industry.

From what I see, the only really "renewable" way to generate electric power is actually a diesel engine driven generator. You want green and renewable, get an old John Deere diesel donkey engine and run a belt to a generator. Plant several acres in rape or peanuts, and make your own biodiesel. All the others tend to either be a false gain like solar, geographically limited as to where you can use it, or better suited to huge industrial complexes.

Then again, you can do like some with more time than sense (a certain actor's house in Jackson Hole is what I have in mind) and have no AC power in your house but spend six hours a day on a stationary bicycle attached to a generator each day to keep the battery bank charged. (I wonder if he knows how to do the routine maintenance on a battery bank? Hmm, may be a kaboom and electrical fireball there some day.)




HunterS -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 6:29:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Electrical generation.... types.

Hydroelectric - cheapest method but huge permanent environmental impact. And, quite geographically limited.

Nuclear - second cheapest and minimal environmental impact if you take into account that the hazards are controlled.. even at the cost of the controls.

Coal and Oil fired plants - most common in the U.S. overall. Huge battle over adding precipitators, cyclone separators, etc. Coal tends to blow all trace elements out the stack that exist in the coal seam... uranium ore, cadmium, lead, mercury. Oil fired uses bunker fuel which is mainly low purity grade diesel. The basic design of most goes back to the 1920s using a burner front to tube and shell boiler to make steam to turn a turbine.

Natural gas... as with coal and oil, burner front to steam. A separate category and not as common outside gas rich areas due to the need for pipelines for transport. Although, some remote installations use tanker ships to bring in LNG for a power plant. Much more clean burning than oil or coal plants.

Gas Turbine Power Plants - good for peak loading but quite expensive and persnickety to operate. Uses massive amounts of jet aircraft grade fuel. These were a fad investment right after the electric power industry was de-regulated in the 1990s.

Wind farms - very useful if you can use a variable power generation system that is geographically limited. A good deal for remote communities to minimize how much power they need to buy from the grid but too variable for base loads or industrial applications.

Solar arrays - a bit geographically limited (never work on the wet side of the Pacific Northwest). Good for relocating small electric load needs. With current technological levels never generate as much energy as it requires to manufacture the panels.

Tidal power - see wind farms. Geographically limited and variable.

Geothermal - pilot plats work!... for a while. The problem with mineral fouling of systems reducing efficiency very quickly has not, to my knowledge, been successfully managed. And you need to locate plants in areas of geothermal activity which are prone to rapid shifts of terrain with little to no warning... yep, earthquakes. <grin>


I keep hearing "we need to change to renewable energy sources" touted. The thing is, what IS that source of renewable energy? The methods we have to work with all have a downside.



The biggest downside I see comes from self appointed experts spouting half truths and platitudes and of course flat out lies.
To say that hydro is limited by geography shows a phenominal grasp of the obvious. To claim that nuclear has a minimal environmental impact is a fucking lie.
Denigrating CNG for lack of pipeline infrastructure is another lie.
The expensive high grade jet fuel you reference is nothing more than diesel fuel.
To claim that solar cells cost more to make than they generate is ignorant beyond belief. Cost of manufacture is down to .56 cents a watt. To notice that tidal power is limited to tidal areas is again one of those "no shit" moments. Consider for a moment most of civilization exist on water ways...kinda convenient to have ones customers so close to the production facility.




HunterS -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 6:50:54 PM)

quote:

But, without the grid, industrial loads would of necessity cluster around high power density generation facilities. Think industrial cities around places like Hoover Dam, Bonneville Dam, and Niagra Falls. The large cities away from the power could not support heavy industry.



But we do have the grid and the power from those dams go to it. So no clusters of industry around the dams.




HunterS -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 6:56:26 PM)

quote:

From what I see, the only really "renewable" way to generate electric power is actually a diesel engine driven generator. You want green and renewable, get an old John Deere diesel donkey engine and run a belt to a generator. Plant several acres in rape or peanuts, and make your own biodiesel.


I can buy diesel for $4 a gal. retail I can sell peanut oil for $7 a gal.[8|]




DomKen -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 8:32:46 PM)

FR
A reasonable model for power generation with almost complete reliance on renewables involves solar panels on all viable roofs and vertical axis wind turbines placed where the panels could not go and the sound won't be an issue. Every structure would then have a battery bank to store excess power for use at night and when the weather is bad. NG power plants could be used to cover the remaining load needs and fill in when the distributed generation fails. Hydro, geothermal and the other less common renewable power sources could be used where appropriate.




MrRodgers -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/20/2014 8:49:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The President has little ability to impact the price of gasoline. There's plenty of shit to pile on Obama, but this isn't one of those turds.

Bullshit
Placing oil fields off limits through executive order, putting off the pipeline decision forever, directing his EPA goons and his IRS goons etc to crack down on every aspect of the energy industry, etc, are but a few of the ways Obama has driven fuel prices (and food prices, and electricity prices etc) to a six year high

US oil production is at an all time high at about 11 million bbls. a day. So talk about bullshit. Gas exports to prop up the price are at or near all time highs.
Obama has done none of the above as also reflected by all time high oil production from the gulf and in fact more off shore leasing then at any time. The pres. can't force them to drill and the oil co. doesn't want to yet, it may bring the price of oil down hey ??
Get a grip man.

Unless something drastic has happened in the last 3 months, we aren't much over 8.2 million bpd.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m

Ok one link included and the one I read before may have included ALL oil related liquids.
Here
Petroleum production, including crude oil and related liquids, known as condensate, and natural gas liquids (NGLs) such as ethane, was 11.27m barrels per day in April, almost equalling the peak of 11.3m b/d reached as an average for 1970. Recent growth rates suggest that it has now exceeded that figure.


Your self-correction has been noted. "Oil production" and "petroleum production" are not the same.


Furthermore, while I can't find the link, it is no great loss, it had that US peak was 10 mill. a year in the 70's, so I am thinking the real numbers are subject to vagaries of the choices made by production engineers...up one quarter, down the next, up one year...down the next.

We are on a new path though with the addition of new fields both US and Canada, so I am thinking that pricing will be subject to downward pressures, despite the volatility of the middle east and as far as we know, Iraq is still producing more...he said prospectively.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Canada OKs oil pipeline to the Pacific Coast... (6/21/2014 7:25:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The President has little ability to impact the price of gasoline. There's plenty of shit to pile on Obama, but this isn't one of those turds.

Bullshit
Placing oil fields off limits through executive order, putting off the pipeline decision forever, directing his EPA goons and his IRS goons etc to crack down on every aspect of the energy industry, etc, are but a few of the ways Obama has driven fuel prices (and food prices, and electricity prices etc) to a six year high

US oil production is at an all time high at about 11 million bbls. a day. So talk about bullshit. Gas exports to prop up the price are at or near all time highs.
Obama has done none of the above as also reflected by all time high oil production from the gulf and in fact more off shore leasing then at any time. The pres. can't force them to drill and the oil co. doesn't want to yet, it may bring the price of oil down hey ??
Get a grip man.

Unless something drastic has happened in the last 3 months, we aren't much over 8.2 million bpd.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m

Ok one link included and the one I read before may have included ALL oil related liquids.
Here
Petroleum production, including crude oil and related liquids, known as condensate, and natural gas liquids (NGLs) such as ethane, was 11.27m barrels per day in April, almost equalling the peak of 11.3m b/d reached as an average for 1970. Recent growth rates suggest that it has now exceeded that figure.

Your self-correction has been noted. "Oil production" and "petroleum production" are not the same.

Furthermore, while I can't find the link, it is no great loss, it had that US peak was 10 mill. a year in the 70's, so I am thinking the real numbers are subject to vagaries of the choices made by production engineers...up one quarter, down the next, up one year...down the next.
We are on a new path though with the addition of new fields both US and Canada, so I am thinking that pricing will be subject to downward pressures, despite the volatility of the middle east and as far as we know, Iraq is still producing more...he said prospectively.


We peaked just over 10M barrels per day crude oil production, Oct/Nov 1970. At least according to the EIA in my link.




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