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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/7/2014 11:34:19 AM   
Musicmystery


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Related:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/why-members-of-congress-are-sending-their-staffers-home-20140112

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/7/2014 5:36:07 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Begs the question. It's a "wasted vote" because they can't govern once they get there, so there's never going to be the build up of support.


That's a good point. Another thing that comes to mind is that whenever there might come a politician who is truly honest, incorruptible, and ready to take on the political machines to fight the good fight (if such a person ever comes into existence)...will the people support and rally behind that politician when that support is needed?

quote:


And for what it's worth, my circle has been seeing it coming since the 1980 election.


For some reason, the country went into a kind of "stupor" around that time. Not sure why. The 70s were no picnic, but the 80s were like being in la-la land.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/7/2014 6:12:16 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

What baffles me is that most of us know that our government is rife with corruption, but half of us want to increase its size and scope. Why?


Put them in charge of every aspect of our lives...

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to hot4bondage)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/7/2014 8:09:34 PM   
Domnotlooking


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Yeah, PAC's etc. are a mess. I used to do that kind of work. No genius's in PAC-land, that's for sure.

But surely the USA is not on par with say, Thailand or most of Africa where $$$$ subsumes every rule of law.

Corruption to me means exactly that: that there is no real rule of law.

Influence buying is bad, but if someone in government wants your property, they can't just take it -Ayn Rand-level paranoia aside.

The USA needs reform, most of the world needs (and can't get, and won't get) basic rights.

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/8/2014 6:53:25 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domnotlooking

Yeah, PAC's etc. are a mess. I used to do that kind of work. No genius's in PAC-land, that's for sure.

But surely the USA is not on par with say, Thailand or most of Africa where $$$$ subsumes every rule of law.

Corruption to me means exactly that: that there is no real rule of law.

Influence buying is bad, but if someone in government wants your property, they can't just take it -Ayn Rand-level paranoia aside.

The USA needs reform, most of the world needs (and can't get, and won't get) basic rights.


You are correct in both of your last posts but you are talking about street level corruption in the form of bribes to police and govt. bureaucrats for local services.

When congress not only exempts itself from insider trading taking advantage of 401K, Roth and Keogh investors, then 'sells' tax credits, environmental exemptions, passes laws to regulate small business in favor of the big producers via political contributions.

Constantly allow and pay for 10's of billion$ on pentagon cost overruns...every year, fails to allow cheap lending for college loans, passes TARP over the objection of the vast majority of the people then fails to explicitly create a means for redress of fraudulent home loans.

Changes over time rules and qualifications for non-exempt labor laws, allowing the market in fact to eliminate health insurance which in fact is a deliberate cost shift from employer to employee via the ACA.....

That's corruption and only the start and is much costlier over the long run than say...fixing a speeding ticket. I don't have to speed or park illegally but everybody does suffer from, federal govt. corruptions.

(in reply to Domnotlooking)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/8/2014 7:04:49 AM   
hot4bondage


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We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill. Many countries are more corrupt, but that doesn't give us a free pass.

By the way, if someone in the government wants your property, they can indeed just take it.

"Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005)[1] was a case decided by the Supreme Court of the United States involving the use of eminent domain to transfer land from one private owner to another private owner to further economic development. In a 5–4 decision, the Court held that the general benefits a community enjoyed from economic growth qualified private redevelopment plans as a permissible "public use" under the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment."

(in reply to Domnotlooking)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/8/2014 7:25:35 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill.

Only in Reagan's fantasies and speeches.

(in reply to hot4bondage)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/8/2014 9:37:51 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
What baffles me is that most of us know that our government is rife with corruption, but half of us want to increase its size and scope. Why?

Put them in charge of every aspect of our lives...


FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR......

The only concept that gets conservatives into action. Give them something to fear and they'll do what ever you wish without an ounce of question or thought.

The size of government has no bearing on whether its a good or bad government. There are plenty of small governments around the world that are run as 'good' and 'bad' governments. The 'limited' government of Haiti for example is *STILL* recovering from a disastrous earthquake from a few years ago. Yet, our government, can seem to handle a similar kind of event in stride and keep progressing. When disaster of enormous qualities strikes one or several states, what happens? We in the other states send help. This might be individual, an organization, the state, or pushing our law-makers and agencies to direct resources to the area(s) affected.

You want better government, Sanity & hot4bondage? Place as much of your fury onto the conservatives, libertartians, Republicans and Tea Party, as you already do with the President and Democrats. Force them to be as accountable and responsible with power, as you slam the President and Democrats in Congress on an hourly basis. A good and strong government happens when the people of that nation want it to happen. To hold the people they vote into office to a higher standard than those they did not vote, determines the caliber of individuals that make their way into public office.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/8/2014 11:23:30 AM   
Domnotlooking


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The corruption index has the USA firmly in the very clean side of the spectrum, compared to the rest of the world.

Plenty to be mad about, to be sure, but I'm guessing no one on this thread has ever spent much time in a really corrupt place.

Is all influence peddling wrong? What about lobbyists who you agree with? I believe that global warming is for real and that some broad policy change is in order (don't want to argue about GW for 50 pages). People who disagree will cry if things go my way and claim corruption.

And then there is simple pragmatism. Bailing out the banks and no one going to jail was not to my liking. But all of the principled stands to let them fail and punish the miscreants would have us all much poorer today.

Sometimes life is just a shit sandwich.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 7:52:19 AM   
hot4bondage


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Ok, let's go with your example. Haiti obviously has a much smaller government than the US, but it's far more corrupt and authoritarian. It's also the poorest nation in the western hemisphere. The Dominican Republic is on the same island but they are much more stable and successful than Haiti, both before and after the earthquake. I'm not going to oversimplify it--racism, culture, language, and geography are factors, too--but the fact remains that Dominicans have a more limited, less authoritarian, BETTER government than Haitians.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 8:03:19 AM   
hot4bondage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill.

Only in Reagan's fantasies and speeches.


And Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc.

If the term American Exceptionalism has too much baggage for you these days, just call it what it is--leading by example. Nothing wrong with that, right?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 8:28:26 AM   
Mouth4Mistress


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/8/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
What baffles me is that most of us know that our government is rife with corruption, but half of us want to increase its size and scope. Why?

Put them in charge of every aspect of our lives...


It's not baffling at all. Many people are uneducated, unmotivated, or downright lazy. They would rather have someone else take care of them, than fight for their own survival. In addition, they would like someone else to make decisions for them.

In any society, there are producers, and there are leeches. Producers have been taught that they must contribute something of value to society, whether it's becoming a scientist or an astronaut, or just being a good person and a good friend / neighbor. Leeches have been taught that society owes them something, just because they grace us with their presence. Both mindsets are very difficult to change - a producer, when faced with a crisis, would fight rather than give up and go on government assistance, whereas a leech would rather keep receiving welfare checks, even when presented with opportunities.

The problem is, when the percentage of leeches becomes so large that the producers cannot support them, the economy inevitably collapses. In the long run, this is a good thing - when chaos reigns, those with survival skills will outlast the crisis... those who have sat on their ass all their lives will be the first to starve out - and the balance will be restored.

When Mitt Romney said that 47% of Americans don't pay income taxes, he wasn't being all "evil whitey hatin' on the colored man", he was drawing attention to the fact that we're VERY close to that tipping point. What happens when... 50... 60... 70%... of Americans aren't paying taxes? Where is the money going to come from? What radical measures will have to be taken to prevent a complete currency collapse?

Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean we're immune.

Look at Argentina, Cuba, Soviet Union, Uruguay, Angola, etc, etc. Hell, you want a recent example? Look at Venezuela. In every country where leeches elected a government that would subsidize more leeches, or (worse yet) make it impossible for producers to produce, economic collapse has INEVITABLY followed.

So yeah, let's keep voting for people who will "give us free shit". Let's get "universal free healthcare" (aha, paid for by....?). Let's spend $ billions on a FAILED automaker, who's now recalling their products by the 100,000's. Let's reach that tipping point already, and have a nice little civil war to shake things up.

P.S. I'm not a Republican or Conservative. I'm a former resident of a Socialist country. I've seen this already. Let's go for an encore. I promise it will be fun.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 8:43:16 AM   
Mouth4Mistress


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR......
The only concept that gets conservatives into action. Give them something to fear and they'll do what ever you wish without an ounce of question or thought.

The size of government has no bearing on whether its a good or bad government. There are plenty of small governments around the world that are run as 'good' and 'bad' governments. The 'limited' government of Haiti for example is *STILL* recovering from a disastrous earthquake from a few years ago. Yet, our government, can seem to handle a similar kind of event in stride and keep progressing. When disaster of enormous qualities strikes one or several states, what happens? We in the other states send help. This might be individual, an organization, the state, or pushing our law-makers and agencies to direct resources to the area(s) affected.

You want better government, Sanity & hot4bondage? Place as much of your fury onto the conservatives, libertartians, Republicans and Tea Party, as you already do with the President and Democrats. Force them to be as accountable and responsible with power, as you slam the President and Democrats in Congress on an hourly basis. A good and strong government happens when the people of that nation want it to happen. To hold the people they vote into office to a higher standard than those they did not vote, determines the caliber of individuals that make their way into public office.


Really? And Democrats don't use fear? Obama didn't promise to "put a boot on the neck" of "our enemies"? Those "enemies" being half the nation that may disagree with him.

The Democrat-controlled Senate didn't fan the flames of fear about the ZOMFG Sequester Of 2013? Didn't close national memorials "due to budget cuts", just to make a public spectacle? (While King Barack I and Michelle Antoinette gave $ 540,000 state dinners and flew to Hawaii for a month, aha).

Yeah, OK, Republicans are the only ones who play with people's emotions, and use dirty tricks. Democrats are, like, totally innocent.

Even Rachel Maddow, one of the most hardcore liberals in the mass media, said this:

"I talked at the top of the show tonight with Gail Collins about how one way to motivate your natural base for an election is to make your base afraid of what the other side has to offer. And that is true. That works. That works on both sides. It works for conservatives about liberals and it works for liberals about conservatives." - Rachel Maddow, MSNBC, August 12, 2010

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 10:37:57 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mouth4Mistress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
What baffles me is that most of us know that our government is rife with corruption, but half of us want to increase its size and scope. Why?

Put them in charge of every aspect of our lives...


It's not baffling at all. Many people are uneducated, unmotivated, or downright lazy. They would rather have someone else take care of them, than fight for their own survival. In addition, they would like someone else to make decisions for them.

In any society, there are producers, and there are leeches. Producers have been taught that they must contribute something of value to society, whether it's becoming a scientist or an astronaut, or just being a good person and a good friend / neighbor. Leeches have been taught that society owes them something, just because they grace us with their presence. Both mindsets are very difficult to change - a producer, when faced with a crisis, would fight rather than give up and go on government assistance, whereas a leech would rather keep receiving welfare checks, even when presented with opportunities.

The problem is, when the percentage of leeches becomes so large that the producers cannot support them, the economy inevitably collapses. In the long run, this is a good thing - when chaos reigns, those with survival skills will outlast the crisis... those who have sat on their ass all their lives will be the first to starve out - and the balance will be restored.

When Mitt Romney said that 47% of Americans don't pay income taxes, he wasn't being all "evil whitey hatin' on the colored man", he was drawing attention to the fact that we're VERY close to that tipping point. What happens when... 50... 60... 70%... of Americans aren't paying taxes? Where is the money going to come from? What radical measures will have to be taken to prevent a complete currency collapse?

Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean we're immune.

Look at Argentina, Cuba, Soviet Union, Uruguay, Angola, etc, etc. Hell, you want a recent example? Look at Venezuela. In every country where leeches elected a government that would subsidize more leeches, or (worse yet) make it impossible for producers to produce, economic collapse has INEVITABLY followed.

So yeah, let's keep voting for people who will "give us free shit". Let's get "universal free healthcare" (aha, paid for by....?). Let's spend $ billions on a FAILED automaker, who's now recalling their products by the 100,000's. Let's reach that tipping point already, and have a nice little civil war to shake things up.

P.S. I'm not a Republican or Conservative. I'm a former resident of a Socialist country. I've seen this already. Let's go for an encore. I promise it will be fun.


I would say that the bigger flaw is in political philosophers who believe in ideology over common sense. That was the main problem with the Soviet Union, and it seems to be the main problem with the United States these days. While we've always had capitalism and the free market, it wasn't really until the Reagan era that people started to become so rigidly ideological about it.

We've had people from all levels of society leeching and gaming the system. This has led to an overall culture of cynicism and mistrust of government in society that leads people to think they should do the same and get their share as well. There are still those who try to play by the rules, thinking that a sense of honor and hard work will get them somewhere. The actual producers are the ones in the middle, and they get the leeches from both ends.

(in reply to Mouth4Mistress)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 11:22:51 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill.

Only in Reagan's fantasies and speeches.


And Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc.

If the term American Exceptionalism has too much baggage for you these days, just call it what it is--leading by example. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Reagan called it a shining city on a hill.

Tell me . . . what did Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc. call it?

(in reply to hot4bondage)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 11:24:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mouth4Mistress

Really? And Democrats don't use fear? Obama didn't promise to "put a boot on the neck" of "our enemies"?

Those "enemies" being half the nation that may disagree with him.

Oh FFS.

You went back for thirds on the Kool-Aid, didn't ya.

(in reply to Mouth4Mistress)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 11:38:31 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

P.S. I'm not a Republican or Conservative. I'm a former resident of a Socialist country. I've seen this already. Let's go for an encore. I promise it will be fun.


Randian, by any small chance?

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Mouth4Mistress)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/9/2014 2:47:42 PM   
sloguy02246


Posts: 534
Joined: 11/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill.

Only in Reagan's fantasies and speeches.


And Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc.

If the term American Exceptionalism has too much baggage for you these days, just call it what it is--leading by example. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Reagan called it a shining city on a hill.

Tell me . . . what did Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc. call it?


Yes, please tell us what all those famous NFL wide receivers call it.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/10/2014 8:01:52 AM   
hot4bondage


Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill.

Only in Reagan's fantasies and speeches.


And Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc.

If the term American Exceptionalism has too much baggage for you these days, just call it what it is--leading by example. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Reagan called it a shining city on a hill.

Tell me . . . what did Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc. call it?

Not sure what you're getting at. Reagan had flaws, so America is just another country? Rather than digging up more dead white guy quotes, here's one from an Iranian in 2006.

"America is the last haven of hope where humanity can flourish. The world owes a great deal to America for inspiration and practical accomplishment. A true American is generous. Americans have helped every other nation in the world. America's enemies decry her greatness, yet they want to be in America, and to be American.

A Pakistani newspaper allegedly offered of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American. So, an Australian dentist wrote the following: "Let everyone know what an American is so he'll know when he's found one. An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek or Persian."

An American is forever a Comanche, a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or any of the people known as Native Americans. An American might also be a Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or a Muslim who has learned to put his religion in its proper place.

So try to kill an American. Hitler tried. So did General Tojo, Stalin, and Mao Tse—Tung. Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, anywhere, is an "American." Americans have defined freedom."--Amil Imani

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Who do we think we are II ? - 7/10/2014 8:04:20 AM   
hot4bondage


Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

We're supposed to be the beacon on the hill.

Only in Reagan's fantasies and speeches.


And Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc.

If the term American Exceptionalism has too much baggage for you these days, just call it what it is--leading by example. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Reagan called it a shining city on a hill.

Tell me . . . what did Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Franklin, etc. call it?


Yes, please tell us what all those famous NFL wide receivers call it.

Statue of Liberty? lol

(in reply to sloguy02246)
Profile   Post #: 40
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