quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas famously does not wear uniforms when they attack Israel. You will not find any claims otherwise.

Yes, they must have a command structure in the field. That is what that section means. It means the unit on the battlefield must have a command structure so that there is a leader to deal with.

And no Hamas does not openly carry their arms. If they did it would not be so difficult for Israel to end them. Hamas famously attacks from under civilian attire and from inside civilian structures.

If you are arguing that Gaza is a sovereign state then Hamas as the government must separate its military from the civilian population. Launching any attack on another state from inside a civilian area is a war crime. Functionally everything Hamas does militarily is illegal, it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas. It is forbidden to launch attacks from civilian areas. It is forbidden for a military force to shelter in a civilian populace.

So why is it that when these typical Hamas Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade are found, they just happen to usually be wearing black when most of the populace around them are wearing lots of colour?
I'm not saying that all Hamas wear black because it is obvious from the news bulletins they many often don't wear any uniforms and I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

And who says Hamas must separate it's military from the civilians??

quote:

AFAIK, the Hamas rebels are civilians - they do not form a proper 'army' at all - that's why they are an 'irregular' force.
And where does it say that it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas??
Also, where is it stated that a military force is forbidden to shelter in the civilian populace??

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Is it even physically and tactically possible for Hamas to fire its rockets at a distance from civilians? As I understand it, Gaza is mostly urban, anyway; moreover, it's very densely packed.

quote:

If Hamas were to fire them from out in the deserts, they'd be picked up by Israel's state of the art surveillance - possibly even before they'd got to the firing area. If you were a general in Hamas, where would you deploy your rocket-firing teams?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That Hamas would quickly be obliterated if they didn't is immaterial.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas famously does not wear uniforms when they attack Israel. You will not find any claims otherwise.

Yes, they must have a command structure in the field. That is what that section means. It means the unit on the battlefield must have a command structure so that there is a leader to deal with.

And no Hamas does not openly carry their arms. If they did it would not be so difficult for Israel to end them. Hamas famously attacks from under civilian attire and from inside civilian structures.

If you are arguing that Gaza is a sovereign state then Hamas as the government must separate its military from the civilian population. Launching any attack on another state from inside a civilian area is a war crime. Functionally everything Hamas does militarily is illegal, it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas. It is forbidden to launch attacks from civilian areas. It is forbidden for a military force to shelter in a civilian populace.

So why is it that when these typical Hamas Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade are found, they just happen to usually be wearing black when most of the populace around them are wearing lots of colour?
I'm not saying that all Hamas wear black because it is obvious from the news bulletins they many often don't wear any uniforms and I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

And who says Hamas must separate it's military from the civilians??

The 3rd GC says they have to in order to get treated as a military and not as spies and terrorists worthy only to be shot summarily. You saw what it says. They must be clearly identifiable from a distance, carry arms openly and have a command structure in the field. Hamas does none of those.

quote:

AFAIK, the Hamas rebels are civilians - they do not form a proper 'army' at all - that's why they are an 'irregular' force.
And where does it say that it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas??
Also, where is it stated that a military force is forbidden to shelter in the civilian populace??

3rd Geneva Convention which built on the Hague Conference of (IIRC) 1908. If a military force launches attacks and shelters inside a civilian population then when it is attacked it is responsible for those civilian deaths and is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity not the force responding to being attacked, i.e. despite all the whining by the pro Palestinian side as long as Hamas employs the tactics they do, legally Israel is 100% in the right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

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Another way to put that is so they can use the civilians as shields.

Typical dense response I've come to expect from you.
Much like your stance on a confrontation - you always have to win rather than just disarm the opposition and walk away.

Being similarly attired and hiding amongst the populace is far different from using the populace as shields.
Or can't you see the difference??

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
These people are as well informed as the ones who assured you that there is no place in the US that you can drive over 40mph?

What the fuck has this to do with the price of chips???
And, the comment I made in that post was from personal observations in the area that I was living in - not by people telling me.

Irrelevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Did they also tell you how easy they are to tell apart in the middle of a firefight?

Nope. Why should they??
I don't follow their religion and I don't live there - so why would I need to know??
As long as the people involved know the difference, that's all that counts.
Apparently, those that know can tell from quite a distance. It's all to do with the colour and design of the headdress and the size/colour of the headband holding it in place.

And before you ask, yes, some of their relatives live out there and are caught up in this mess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Okay. so one vote for blaming Bush... [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Okay. so one vote for blaming Bush... [:D]

He blames Bush for earthquakes.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm with you there.

But too many people still believe killing the opposition is the answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Is it even physically and tactically possible for Hamas to fire its rockets at a distance from civilians? As I understand it, Gaza is mostly urban, anyway; moreover, it's very densely packed. If Hamas were to fire them from out in the deserts, they'd be picked up by Israel's state of the art surveillance - possibly even before they'd got to the firing area. If you were a general in Hamas, where would you deploy your rocket-firing teams?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas famously does not wear uniforms when they attack Israel. You will not find any claims otherwise.

Yes, they must have a command structure in the field. That is what that section means. It means the unit on the battlefield must have a command structure so that there is a leader to deal with.

And no Hamas does not openly carry their arms. If they did it would not be so difficult for Israel to end them. Hamas famously attacks from under civilian attire and from inside civilian structures.

If you are arguing that Gaza is a sovereign state then Hamas as the government must separate its military from the civilian population. Launching any attack on another state from inside a civilian area is a war crime. Functionally everything Hamas does militarily is illegal, it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas. It is forbidden to launch attacks from civilian areas. It is forbidden for a military force to shelter in a civilian populace.

So why is it that when these typical Hamas Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade are found, they just happen to usually be wearing black when most of the populace around them are wearing lots of colour?
I'm not saying that all Hamas wear black because it is obvious from the news bulletins they many often don't wear any uniforms and I suspect that is purely for camouflage reasons (mixing with the people).

And who says Hamas must separate it's military from the civilians??

The 3rd GC says they have to in order to get treated as a military and not as spies and terrorists worthy only to be shot summarily. You saw what it says. They must be clearly identifiable from a distance, carry arms openly and have a command structure in the field. Hamas does none of those.

quote:

AFAIK, the Hamas rebels are civilians - they do not form a proper 'army' at all - that's why they are an 'irregular' force.
And where does it say that it is forbidden to store and build weapons in civilian areas??
Also, where is it stated that a military force is forbidden to shelter in the civilian populace??

3rd Geneva Convention which built on the Hague Conference of (IIRC) 1908. If a military force launches attacks and shelters inside a civilian population then when it is attacked it is responsible for those civilian deaths and is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity not the force responding to being attacked, i.e. despite all the whining by the pro Palestinian side as long as Hamas employs the tactics they do, legally Israel is 100% in the right.

Yes, I read it.
Nowhere did I see it state "have a command structure in the field".
It only states "commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates" and it doesn't say WHERE that commanding person has to be.
This is typical personal spin and misinterpretation that you play on words.
It does NOT say what you are saying it says! [:D]

Under the Laws of War, it says "Parties are bound by the laws of war to the extent that such compliance does not interfere with achieving legitimate military goals. For example, they are obliged to make every effort to avoid damaging people and property not involved in combat, but they are not guilty of a war crime if a bomb mistakenly hits a residential area".
In the case of the Israeli attacks, they are deliberately attacking civilian targets - including schools, hospitals and densely populated areas.

It goes on to state (under Remedies) "Unlawful combatants who have been captured may lose the status and protections that would otherwise be afforded to them as prisoners of war, but only after a "competent tribunal" has determined that they are not eligible for POW status (See, e.g., GC III Art 5.)".
So... the Israeli's cannot summarily execute Hamas without due process of a competent tribunal.


And interestingly, Israel have consistently been accused (since 2001) by various bodies (Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, UN Human Rights Council) of using Palestinians as human shields which are only now being investigated.

It is also interesting that many people point fingers at Hamas when it appears that Israel are doing pretty much the same thing and worse.