quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In your opinion, does Israel have the right to protect it's borders and citizens within those borders? Would Israel have invaded Gaza this time if not for the rocket attacks and the kidnapping of those kids? Does Israel have any right to fire back at Hamas?

Yes Israel does have a legitimate right of self defence of its territory and citizens. This right stops at its borders, the internationally recognised (1967) borders. Israel has no right of self defence in the occupied territories under international law. Equally, under international law, the Palestinians, as an occupied people, have a legitimate right of self defence (provided they target military targets).

I agree. What's happening now, though, is in Gaza, where the borders aren't really in question. Unless you are claiming that Hamas is launching attacks from Gaza in response to settlements in the West Bank. Considering Hamas doesn't have governance control over the West Bank, they aren't representatives of the people there. Essentially, Hamas can defend Gaza.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
DS, I am only going to respond to this point because this comment indicates the depth of your lack of awareness of the situation. Please don't interpret that as a personal criticism - it's not. It's a complex situation and the US media is among the worst in the world for its one-sided reporting of situation in Occupied Palestine.
Gaza is surrounded by Israel which has imposed a blockade on it. Israel controls the borders, the air and sea access, entry and exits, water, power etc. This amounts to "occupation" status under international law. So people in Gaza do have a legal right to self defence (provided they target legitimate targets) under international law.
You can remedy the one sided nature of the information you are receiving on the situation by tracking these websites for a few weeks. It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes per day. They list every act of violence carried out as part of the Occupation of Palestine, from crop destruction, blowing up water wells up to murder and killings. It might be best to do after the current slaughter dies down and things in the ME are 'quiet' to get a more balanced picture.
www.mondoweiss.org
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
Another very informative site is that of the Israeli Human Rights Organisation, B'Tselem, which tracks human rights and legal violation by the IDF and other Israeli Govt. agencies: www.btselem.org
This video, made by the peace activist son of an Israeli General and war hero is eye-opening: http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2014/07/20/a-zionist-general-s-son-shatters-the-myt
Happy researching!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
DS, I am only going to respond to this point because this comment indicates the depth of your lack of awareness of the situation. Please don't interpret that as a personal criticism - it's not. It's a complex situation and the US media is among the worst in the world for its one-sided reporting of situation in Occupied Palestine.
Gaza is surrounded by Israel which has imposed a blockade on it. Israel controls the borders, the air and sea access, entry and exits, water, power etc. This amounts to "occupation" status under international law. So people in Gaza do have a legal right to self defence (provided they target legitimate targets) under international law.
You can remedy the one sided nature of the information you are receiving on the situation by tracking these websites for a few weeks. It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes per day. They list every act of violence carried out as part of the Occupation of Palestine, from crop destruction, blowing up water wells up to murder and killings. It might be best to do after the current slaughter dies down and things in the ME are 'quiet' to get a more balanced picture.
www.mondoweiss.org
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
Another very informative site is that of the Israeli Human Rights Organisation, B'Tselem, which tracks human rights and legal violation by the IDF and other Israeli Govt. agencies: www.btselem.org
This video, made by the peace activist son of an Israeli General and war hero is eye-opening: http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2014/07/20/a-zionist-general-s-son-shatters-the-myt
Happy researching!

Mondoweiss.org was unavailable to me.

Informationclearinghouse and thepeoplesvoice are both ridiculously biased.

The btselem.org link looks quite impressive in it's depth and breadth. Thanks for that link. There are many hours ahead for me on that site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

In your opinion, does Israel have the right to protect it's borders and citizens within those borders? Would Israel have invaded Gaza this time if not for the rocket attacks and the kidnapping of those kids? Does Israel have any right to fire back at Hamas?

Yes Israel does have a legitimate right of self defence of its territory and citizens. This right stops at its borders, the internationally recognised (1967) borders. Israel has no right of self defence in the occupied territories under international law. Equally, under international law, the Palestinians, as an occupied people, have a legitimate right of self defence (provided they target military targets).

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Is it possible to be more ignorant about international law.

When acting in self defence your actions have to be proportional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Is it possible to be more ignorant about international law.

When acting in self defence your actions have to be proportional.

Nope. No where in the UN charter or the relevant Geneva Conventions is there such a requirement. If a nation is attacked it can unleash its full fury on the attacker.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Is it possible to be more ignorant about international law.

When acting in self defence your actions have to be proportional.

Nope. No where in the UN charter or the relevant Geneva Conventions is there such a requirement. If a nation is attacked it can unleash its full fury on the attacker.

It is an absolutely established legal principle that self defence must be proportional. You're wrong on this. This is international law, created by precedent between the USA and the British (see the Caroline case)

If it is not proportional, it ceases to be self-defence and becomes "offence".

quote:

Further since the force that fired that rocket does not wear uniforms it is legally not a state military and the Geneva Conventions on dealing with state military forces do not apply. Israel can summarily execute any prisoners they take as if they were spies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Further since the force that fired that rocket does not wear uniforms it is legally not a state military and the Geneva Conventions on dealing with state military forces do not apply. Israel can summarily execute any prisoners they take as if they were spies.

I think you are mistaken, Ken . . . .

An unlawful combatant who is not a national of a neutral state, and who is not a national of a co-belligerent state, retains rights and privileges under the Fourth Geneva Convention so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial".[3]

Furthermore from the same source:

The UN has, after the resolution was passed, permitted Palestine to title its representative office to the UN as "The Permanent Observer Mission of the State of Palestine to the United Nations",[10] seen by many as a reflexion of the UN's de facto position of recognising the State of Palestine's sovereignty under international law,[5]

Sorry, different source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_the_West_Bank_and_Gaza_Strip

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Further since the force that fired that rocket does not wear uniforms it is legally not a state military and the Geneva Conventions on dealing with state military forces do not apply. Israel can summarily execute any prisoners they take as if they were spies.

I think you are mistaken, Ken . . . .

An unlawful combatant who is not a national of a neutral state, and who is not a national of a co-belligerent state, retains rights and privileges under the Fourth Geneva Convention so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial".[3]

Furthermore from the same source:

The UN has, after the resolution was passed, permitted Palestine to title its representative office to the UN as "The Permanent Observer Mission of the State of Palestine to the United Nations",[10] seen by many as a reflexion of the UN's de facto position of recognising the State of Palestine's sovereignty under international law,[5]

Sorry, different source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_the_West_Bank_and_Gaza_Strip

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
....If the PA is a sovereign state then its military must wear uniforms that identify it as such, directly from the 3rd GC, failing to do so strips them of all protections...

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution#Exceptions_to_prisoners_of_war_status

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
....If the PA is a sovereign state then its military must wear uniforms that identify it as such, directly from the 3rd GC, failing to do so strips them of all protections...

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution#Exceptions_to_prisoners_of_war_status

Actually, it says no such thing.
What it does say is... "According to Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, irregular forces are entitled to prisoner of war status provided that they are commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly..." - so a uniform is NOT necessary as long as there is a distinctive sign.
It does mention that it needs to be recognizable "at a distance" - but how far is that to qualify?? 10 yards? half a mile? Viewable from Hubble?
I would classify the Hamas rebels as an irregular force under the 3rd GC.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
DS, I am only going to respond to this point because this comment indicates the depth of your lack of awareness of the situation. Please don't interpret that as a personal criticism - it's not. It's a complex situation and the US media is among the worst in the world for its one-sided reporting of situation in Occupied Palestine.
Gaza is surrounded by Israel which has imposed a blockade on it. Israel controls the borders, the air and sea access, entry and exits, water, power etc. This amounts to "occupation" status under international law. So people in Gaza do have a legal right to self defence (provided they target legitimate targets) under international law.
You can remedy the one sided nature of the information you are receiving on the situation by tracking these websites for a few weeks. It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes per day. They list every act of violence carried out as part of the Occupation of Palestine, from crop destruction, blowing up water wells up to murder and killings. It might be best to do after the current slaughter dies down and things in the ME are 'quiet' to get a more balanced picture.
www.mondoweiss.org
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
Another very informative site is that of the Israeli Human Rights Organisation, B'Tselem, which tracks human rights and legal violation by the IDF and other Israeli Govt. agencies: www.btselem.org
This video, made by the peace activist son of an Israeli General and war hero is eye-opening: http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2014/07/20/a-zionist-general-s-son-shatters-the-myt
Happy researching!

Mondoweiss.org was unavailable to me.
Informationclearinghouse and thepeoplesvoice are both ridiculously biased.
The btselem.org link looks quite impressive in it's depth and breadth. Thanks for that link. There are many hours ahead for me on that site.

I just found it, it's http://mondoweiss.net/
".net" instead of ".org"

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Israelis dont really deny that theyre not messing around with this situation. The younger Israelis are unable to grasp what happened to their fathers, that is how their fathers could have allowed the Germans to enslave them. Their view is that it wont happen to them and if that means that they have to strike first or reply in kind and then some then so be it. Ive been over there and as with any country there are liberal and conservative elements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
....If the PA is a sovereign state then its military must wear uniforms that identify it as such, directly from the 3rd GC, failing to do so strips them of all protections...

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution#Exceptions_to_prisoners_of_war_status

Actually, it says no such thing.
What it does say is... "According to Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, irregular forces are entitled to prisoner of war status provided that they are commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly..." - so a uniform is NOT necessary as long as there is a distinctive sign.
It does mention that it needs to be recognizable "at a distance" - but how far is that to qualify?? 10 yards? half a mile? Viewable from Hubble?
I would classify the Hamas rebels as an irregular force under the 3rd GC.

What sign do they wear? In the field where are their leaders? When did they start carrying arms openly?

Hamas fails every one of the tests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
....If the PA is a sovereign state then its military must wear uniforms that identify it as such, directly from the 3rd GC, failing to do so strips them of all protections...

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution#Exceptions_to_prisoners_of_war_status

Actually, it says no such thing.
What it does say is... "According to Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, irregular forces are entitled to prisoner of war status provided that they are commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly..." - so a uniform is NOT necessary as long as there is a distinctive sign.
It does mention that it needs to be recognizable "at a distance" - but how far is that to qualify?? 10 yards? half a mile? Viewable from Hubble?
I would classify the Hamas rebels as an irregular force under the 3rd GC.

What sign do they wear? In the field where are their leaders? When did they start carrying arms openly?

Hamas fails every one of the tests.

No it doesn't fail the tests.

It can be construed that their distinctive headgear is their insignia.
However, as reported in LA Times, most of the Hamas troops wear black uniforms... "The gunmen escorting the loader wore black uniforms typical of Hamas' Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade, a group that fires missiles at Israel".
Source: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/26/world/fg-gaza26/2

Their leaders do not have to be "in the field" with them - they just need a person responsible for their actions as a leader (Khaled Meshaal).

And if you watched some unbiased news, pretty much most of the Hamas rebels openly walk in the streets of Gaza carrying arms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
....If the PA is a sovereign state then its military must wear uniforms that identify it as such, directly from the 3rd GC, failing to do so strips them of all protections...

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution#Exceptions_to_prisoners_of_war_status

Actually, it says no such thing.
What it does say is... "According to Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, irregular forces are entitled to prisoner of war status provided that they are commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly..." - so a uniform is NOT necessary as long as there is a distinctive sign.
It does mention that it needs to be recognizable "at a distance" - but how far is that to qualify?? 10 yards? half a mile? Viewable from Hubble?
I would classify the Hamas rebels as an irregular force under the 3rd GC.

What sign do they wear? In the field where are their leaders? When did they start carrying arms openly?

Hamas fails every one of the tests.

No it doesn't fail the tests.

It can be construed that their distinctive headgear is their insignia.
However, as reported in LA Times, most of the Hamas troops wear black uniforms... "The gunmen escorting the loader wore black uniforms typical of Hamas' Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade, a group that fires missiles at Israel".
Source: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/26/world/fg-gaza26/2

Their leaders do not have to be "in the field" with them - they just need a person responsible for their actions as a leader (Khaled Meshaal).

And if you watched some unbiased news, pretty much most of the Hamas rebels openly walk in the streets of Gaza carrying arms.