RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault...

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Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/12/2014 4:32:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen 26 hospitals for a population of 1.5 million? I wish Chicago had that many facilities for the population. I wonder how many actually ever saw patients? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183566#.U-nr5Jt0yB8 Come off it Ken...... Do you really think Gaza has hospitals that compare with major western cities, size wise ?

DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/12/2014 6:27:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen 26 hospitals for a population of 1.5 million? I wish Chicago had that many facilities for the population. I wonder how many actually ever saw patients? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183566#.U-nr5Jt0yB8 Come off it Ken...... Do you really think Gaza has hospitals that compare with major western cities, size wise ? Then stop calling them hospitals and call them clinics. Calling clinics hospitals is simply a ploy to make it sound like Israel is bombing trauma centers instead of one room clinics.

Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 2:35:46 AM)
Talk about sticking your head in the sand Ken. [8\|]

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 5:49:18 AM)
While the world's attention was focussed on the horrors in Gaza, Netayahooooooo finally confirmed what most of us have suspected and asserted for years - he is against the Two State Solution (TSS), he is never going to permit a Palestinian State with full sovereignty in the West Bank. Netanyahoooooo is stating a view he has held for years. Veteran reporter Max Hastings writes of Netanyahoooooo advocating the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank as far back as 1977: "One night at a dinner party in Jerusalem in 1977, I heard a young Israeli talking about the Arabs in terms which chilled my blood. "In the next war," he said, "we've got to get the Palestinians out of the West Bank for good." [.....] By a curious quirk, that young Israeli whom I heard enthuse about emptying the West Bank of Arabs was Binyamin Netanyahu, today his country's prime minister." http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/09/israel-middle-east-max-hastings * Lately he has made noises about accepting a TSS but in practice has done all he can to make it impossible. The recent collapse of the US sponsored 'peace process' was due to Israeli intransigence, dictated by Netanyahoooooo. It seems that the aggression in Gaza has offered him the opportunity to put the final nail in the coffin of the TSS. According to David Horowitz, Editor of The Times of Israel and long time Netanyahoo confidante and ally: "The prime minister spoke his mind as rarely, if ever, before. [...] He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. [....] Netanyahu has stressed often in the past that he doesn’t want Israel to become a binational state — implying that he favors some kind of accommodation with and separation from the Palestinians. But on Friday he made explicit that this could not extend to full Palestinian sovereignty." http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz3AH5diQhH (emphasis in original) Netanyahoo has thus confirmed an allegation I have often advanced on these threads - that Israel is not interested in a peace deal with Palestinians, that its goal is keeping the West Bank for itself and that it will "never, ever" countenance any kind of Palestinian State with full sovereignty over its lands. The TSS is dead, its death notice written in Israeli intransigence by Netanyahooooooo. The consequences of this are immense possibly greater than those of Israel's aggression in Gaza. Occupied Palestine will remain occupied forever. I wonder does Netanyahooooo realise he has chosen the 'suicide option' for the Zionist dream. * Hastings article, which tracks how his initial admiration for Israel and its early achievements turned to disenchantment and eventual disillusion with the "tragedy" of Israel today, is well worth reading. I suspect his personal path is shared by millions.

thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 9:48:51 AM)
ORIGINAL: Sanity [image]http://38.media.tumblr.com/53e23cd72058ba225e9ac470a1be7e6b/tumblr_n8nz9uc2M41sctu0go1_1280.jpg[/image] [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/For%20Israel/toonimageenc.jpg[/image] History has shown us that both sides attack non combatants. For you to post this disingenuous drivel shows the level of lies you are willing to spout.

thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 9:50:20 AM)
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom That's incorrect. You advocated majority opinion as the arbiter of truth. I stated that was fascist. That's true. Only in the mind of a moron. Get a phoquing dictionary.

thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 9:58:29 AM)
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom Majority rule in and of itself means the denial of rights to anyone not in the majority. You obviously prefer minority rule. Unless you have a constitutional republic that delimits unalienable rights or the equivalent. But our inalienable rights are limited. You may not shout fire in a crowded theater unless there really is a fire. Why do you feel that a republic is the only form of government that can guarantee inalienable rights? Otherwise, any and all rights are ultimately up for grabs. Only in the mind of a moron. I'm pretty damned certain you've read Orwell. Mr. blairs socialist opinions/books are pretty well known but seldom read by those who reference them. So it would appear that by citing a socilaist as a supporting source for your opinions conflicts with your less than aproving stance on socialism?

thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 10:02:36 AM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD They weren't hitting a school they were hitting a munitions depot. Have you ever considered validating anything that you post? This has been shown to be an unmitigated lie.

thompsonx -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/13/2014 10:07:25 AM)
ORIGINAL: DomKen Then stop calling them hospitals and call them clinics. Calling clinics hospitals is simply a ploy to make it sound like Israel is bombing trauma centers instead of one room clinics. We have to do this because "almighty you" say so???pull the stick out of your ass and get a clue. You have no authority to order anyone on this board to do anything. Calling them one room clinics sorta inspires an image of the school nurse's office which is what you, a zionist appologist, would like us to believe. These are trauma centers you fucking cretin...this is a combat zone for fuck sake. We know you are full of shit and that you often post less than accurate data. This would be just one more lame attempt.

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/15/2014 5:27:40 AM)
It seems that the ceasefire is being largely observed by both sides and these are hopes that the Cairo talks might produce agreement for a lasting ceasefire. Assuming (rather optimistically) that a lasting ceasefire is agreed, what is the way forward from here? Former US President Carter and former Irish President Mary Robinson, both members of the influential 'Elders' group have penned an article in Foreign Policy with their vision of the way forward: "The international community's initial goal should be the full restoration of the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza through Israel, Egypt, and the sea. Concurrently, the United States and EU should recognize that Hamas is not just a military but also a political force. Hamas cannot be wished away, nor will it cooperate in its own demise. Only by recognizing its legitimacy as a political actor -- one that represents a substantial portion of the Palestinian people -- can the West begin to provide the right incentives for Hamas to lay down its weapons. Ever since the internationally monitored 2006 elections that brought Hamas to power in Palestine, the West's approach has manifestly contributed to the opposite result. Ultimately, however, lasting peace depends on the creation of a Palestinian state next to Israel." http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/04/how_to_fix_it_jimmy_carter_mary_robinson_israel_palestine_gaza_hamas Their suggestions call for a radical departure from the failed policy of isolating Hamas and besieging Gaza. It is clear that the option of a military solution isn't viable. Israel has tried it and failed 3 times - in 2007/8 (Cast Lead) 2012 and again recently. It's time for a new policy direction to be adopted and implemented. Is the Two State Solution still a viable option after Netanyahooooo's public declaration that he will "never, ever" agree to it? If not, are there any other initiatives that might succeed?

vincentML -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 7:30:38 AM)
~FR~ The 'myths' of Israel's birth . . . . a counter narrative. . . . . This is the traditional narrative of Israel's birth, part of what Israeli hisitorian Simha Flapan described as the "myths" surrounding Israel in his famous 1987 book The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities. However, this is a distortion of the actual history, which saw Zionism arrive on the soil of a Palestine that was already in the midst of its own modernization, against which what Israeli sociologist Gershon Shafir describes as a "militant [Zionist] nationalist movement" developed, deploying the "conquest of labor" and then the "conquest of land" to increasingly powerful effect once the British conquered Palestine in 1917. After three decades of British rule that was legally committed -- through the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate -- to facilitate the creation of a Jewish "national home" at the expense of fostering Palestinian Arab nationalism, outright civil war became inevitable. When war finally came, the Zionist leadership "accepted" the terms of the 1947 Partition Plan. In reality, they had little intention of actually fulfilling them, and over the next year, through intercommunal conflict and then all-out war, three quarters of a million Palestinians were permanently forced from their homes, and over 500 villages were destroyed. The lengthy article is worth reading, I think. SOURCE More: This is the context to understand why Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. Even the archconservative New York Post admitted that Hamas was elected not because Palestinians supported terrorism but because Palestinians were completely disgusted with the Palestinian Authority (PA), controlled by Yasser Arafat's Fatah party, which was utterly coopted by and dependent upon Israel and the U.S. and had become hugely corrupt and as brutal as Israel in its treatment of dissent. Hamas did not begin firing missiles into Israel until after it had attempted to remove the newly elected leadership by force in a U.S.- and PA-supported coup. No significant rocket fire occurred until two years after Hamas was elected, during which time Israel continued its siege on Gaza and its ever-tightening stranglehold on the West Bank.

DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 8:02:21 AM)
They turned to rockets only because they were barred from entering Israel so they could no longer use bombs strapped to the bodies of their members. You will note that since Israel has closed its borders to both Gaza and the West Bank such attacks have ceased but the rocket attacks have started. It is not that Hamas started attacking Israel but they had to find a new way to do so.

vincentML -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 12:47:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen They turned to rockets only because they were barred from entering Israel so they could no longer use bombs strapped to the bodies of their members. You will note that since Israel has closed its borders to both Gaza and the West Bank such attacks have ceased but the rocket attacks have started. It is not that Hamas started attacking Israel but they had to find a new way to do so. Right [8\|] And of course in your book of fairy tales Hamas was not ousted from their majority seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council. And of course there was no violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah. Furthermore, in your dream land there was no reconciliation agreement this past April in which Abbas would be the leader of the new transitional technocratic government in preparation for new elections. Was the kidnapping of three boys a great excuse for Bibi to disrupt the reconciliation? Ya betcha!

DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 1:05:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen They turned to rockets only because they were barred from entering Israel so they could no longer use bombs strapped to the bodies of their members. You will note that since Israel has closed its borders to both Gaza and the West Bank such attacks have ceased but the rocket attacks have started. It is not that Hamas started attacking Israel but they had to find a new way to do so. Right [8\|] And of course in your book of fairy tales Hamas was not ousted from their majority seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council. And of course there was no violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah. Furthermore, in your dream land there was no reconciliation agreement this past April in which Abbas would be the leader of the new transitional technocratic government in preparation for new elections. Was the kidnapping of three boys a great excuse for Bibi to disrupt the reconciliation? Ya betcha! Are you really denying that Hamas turned to rockets as their primary means of attacking Israel only since Israel sealed their border to end Hamas and the PLO's practice of sending Palestinians with bombs strapped to their bodies into Israel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks And it is untrue that Hamas never fired a rocket till 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

vincentML -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 1:39:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen They turned to rockets only because they were barred from entering Israel so they could no longer use bombs strapped to the bodies of their members. You will note that since Israel has closed its borders to both Gaza and the West Bank such attacks have ceased but the rocket attacks have started. It is not that Hamas started attacking Israel but they had to find a new way to do so. Right [8\|] And of course in your book of fairy tales Hamas was not ousted from their majority seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council. And of course there was no violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah. Furthermore, in your dream land there was no reconciliation agreement this past April in which Abbas would be the leader of the new transitional technocratic government in preparation for new elections. Was the kidnapping of three boys a great excuse for Bibi to disrupt the reconciliation? Ya betcha! Are you really denying that Hamas turned to rockets as their primary means of attacking Israel only since Israel sealed their border to end Hamas and the PLO's practice of sending Palestinians with bombs strapped to their bodies into Israel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks And it is untrue that Hamas never fired a rocket till 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel Gee . . . maybe Israel should reverse the settler invasion and IDF occupation of Palestinian land. How can they expect peace when they are taking land away from the Arabs? They can't of course. Bibi destroyed the chance to negotiate with a unified Palestinian government because he has no intention of agreeing to a 2 state solution. He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.

PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 2:50:03 PM)
quote: Is the Two State Solution still a viable option after Netanyahooooo's public declaration that he will "never, ever" agree to it? If not, are there any other initiatives that might succeed? No. There are not - other than outright obliteration of 'mad subhuman vermin'. Netanyeehah is right: the moment Palestine is recognised as a nation in and of itself, the world will begin to see the situation as one of a powerful, rich nation bullying a poor, weak nation. The old narrative, the one that's been set up and pumped so vigorously to date, of 'ordinary civilised people' being attacked by 'outsiders', will no longer sit well across the world. Humans live in nations - humans just like all the rest of us. Netanhooray can't let Palestine be a nation. Whatever next? People giving a shit about children being blown to shreds in Gaza as they sleep? They are Gazan children. They are not human children. Never, ever do anything that allows the world to think of them in any other way.

Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 5:04:50 PM)
Anyone care to point out that the 65,000 homes destroyed in Gaza are no longer suitable for launching missiles ?

DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/16/2014 7:40:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen They turned to rockets only because they were barred from entering Israel so they could no longer use bombs strapped to the bodies of their members. You will note that since Israel has closed its borders to both Gaza and the West Bank such attacks have ceased but the rocket attacks have started. It is not that Hamas started attacking Israel but they had to find a new way to do so. Right [8\|] And of course in your book of fairy tales Hamas was not ousted from their majority seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council. And of course there was no violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah. Furthermore, in your dream land there was no reconciliation agreement this past April in which Abbas would be the leader of the new transitional technocratic government in preparation for new elections. Was the kidnapping of three boys a great excuse for Bibi to disrupt the reconciliation? Ya betcha! Are you really denying that Hamas turned to rockets as their primary means of attacking Israel only since Israel sealed their border to end Hamas and the PLO's practice of sending Palestinians with bombs strapped to their bodies into Israel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks And it is untrue that Hamas never fired a rocket till 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel Gee . . . maybe Israel should reverse the settler invasion and IDF occupation of Palestinian land. How can they expect peace when they are taking land away from the Arabs? They can't of course. Bibi destroyed the chance to negotiate with a unified Palestinian government because he has no intention of agreeing to a 2 state solution. He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. The attacks I'm talking about predate Netanyahu. Why are you trying to change the subject?

tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/17/2014 3:55:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentM Bibi destroyed the chance to negotiate with a unified Palestinian government because he has no intention of agreeing to a 2 state solution. He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. Now that Netanyahoooooo has made it clear that he is ruling out an independent Palestinian State in perpetuity we should examine some of the implications of this, bearing in mind that this is not a radical departure from Bibi's previous stance but rather an emphatic re-statement of the position he has held for decades. This is simply the first time that Bibi has come clean and stated publicly his long held belief. Among the implications are: * Israeli participation in the US sponsored 'peace process' has been a sham from the beginning. Bibi never had any intention of concluding a fair peace with the Palestinians. All the Israeli complaints about "lacking a peace partner etc." are revealed as hollow rhetoric, just another in the long line of lies to avoid making the meaningful concessions necessary for peace. All along the people lacking a partner for peace have been the Palestinians. Israel has lied to the US to the Palestinians and the world about its real intentions for years * The Israelis haven't and never had any intention of swapping land for peace. Their goal since 1967 has been the total conquest of the West Bank and its annexation into Israel proper. As Israel initiated hostilities in 1967 it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the 1967 war was designed initiated and executed as a war of expansion, not the 'self defence' war Israel has always claimed. * There was never any intention to return the settlements/colonies to their rightful owners. They are and always have been set up and run as semi-military obstacles to peace, strategically designed to further Israeli control and prevent any chance of a Palestinian State. Nothing more than naked colonisalism in an arrogant and total disregard for international law. * The ethnic cleansing of the West Bank is a deliberate policy to drive the Palestinians off their land and hopefully (from an Israeli perspective) into permanent exile along with all the other refugees Israel has created over the decades, a policy implemented at all levels of Govt from the IDF to local planning departments * Bearing in mind the long list of lies the Israelis have uttered publicly over the years, nothing that Israel says can be taken on face value, and ought not be believed unless confirmed by Israeli actions or strong independent evidence in support. * Bibi and the other criminals in the Israeli Govt are quite prepared to ensure further conflict, bloodshed and occupation for decades if that is the price they have to pay to satisfy their lust for land belonging to another people. Israel has effectively ruled out a peaceful resolution of the conflict, which leaves no alternative but decades more war bloodshed conflict and misery for a region with more than its fair share of war and misery These are just a few of the implications. If anyone believed in Israeli good faith and intentions over the years, it is now incontestable that you have been misled by Israeli lies and dissembling. A total reconsideration of the conflict is needed now that Israel's real intentions have been revealed. It is crystal clear that peace is not now, nor never has been on the Israeli agenda. For those who viewed Israel sympathetically, this realisation means that you have been misled into supporting the aggressors.

DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/17/2014 5:35:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: vincentM Bibi destroyed the chance to negotiate with a unified Palestinian government because he has no intention of agreeing to a 2 state solution. He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. Now that Netanyahoooooo has made it clear that he is ruling out an independent Palestinian State in perpetuity we should examine some of the implications of this, bearing in mind that this is not a radical departure from Bibi's previous stance but rather an emphatic re-statement of the position he has held for decades. This is simply the first time that Bibi has come clean and stated publicly his long held belief. Among the implications are: * Israeli participation in the US sponsored 'peace process' has been a sham from the beginning. Bibi never had any intention of concluding a fair peace with the Palestinians. All the Israeli complaints about "lacking a peace partner etc." are revealed as hollow rhetoric, just another in the long line of lies to avoid making the meaningful concessions necessary for peace. All along the people lacking a partner for peace have been the Palestinians. Israel has lied to the US to the Palestinians and the world about its real intentions for years * The Israelis haven't and never had any intention of swapping land for peace. Their goal since 1967 has been the total conquest of the West Bank and its annexation into Israel proper. As Israel initiated hostilities in 1967 it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the 1967 war was designed initiated and executed as a war of expansion, not the 'self defence' war Israel has always claimed. * There was never any intention to return the settlements/colonies to their rightful owners. They are and always have been set up and run as semi-military obstacles to peace, strategically designed to further Israeli control and prevent any chance of a Palestinian State. Nothing more than naked colonisalism in an arrogant and total disregard for international law. * The ethnic cleansing of the West Bank is a deliberate policy to drive the Palestinians off their land and hopefully (from an Israeli perspective) into permanent exile along with all the other refugees Israel has created over the decades, a policy implemented at all levels of Govt from the IDF to local planning departments * Bearing in mind the long list of lies the Israelis have uttered publicly over the years, nothing that Israel says can be taken on face value, and ought not be believed unless confirmed by Israeli actions or strong independent evidence in support. * Bibi and the other criminals in the Israeli Govt are quite prepared to ensure further conflict, bloodshed and occupation for decades if that is the price they have to pay to satisfy their lust for land belonging to another people. Israel has effectively ruled out a peaceful resolution of the conflict, which leaves no alternative but decades more war bloodshed conflict and misery for a region with more than its fair share of war and misery These are just a few of the implications. If anyone believed in Israeli good faith and intentions over the years, it is now incontestable that you have been misled by Israeli lies and dissembling. A total reconsideration of the conflict is needed now that Israel's real intentions have been revealed. It is crystal clear that peace is not now, nor never has been on the Israeli agenda. For those who viewed Israel sympathetically, this realisation means that you have been misled into supporting the aggressors. Dear dimwit, Netanyahu is not Israel. He happens to at present lead one political party and he is a fairly extreme member of that party at that. Please take your hatred elsewhere.

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