RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/17/2014 4:49:39 PM)

Ken, are you seriously suggesting that a man who has been at the top of Israeli politics for over 20 years, and is currently serving his third term as Prime Minister, has no pull ?

One has to wonder that if he is, in your words "extreme", why he keeps getting elected ?




tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/17/2014 11:49:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Netanyahu is not Israel. He happens to at present lead one political party and he is a fairly extreme member of that party at that. Please take your hatred elsewhere.

The dim witted one is you, DK. You have been the person constantly parroting Israeli claims that Israel was interested in peace, that Israel was offering generous terms to the Palestinians, that the Palestinians have been the obstacle to peace ....etc etc.

Now these claims have been exploded into smithereens by the no less than the person who leads and speaks for Israel - the Prime Minister Netanyahooooo. Netanyahoooooo tells us that he has no intention of ever accepting a sovereign Palestinian State in the West Bank which makes your constant assertion that Israel is committed to the Two State Solution look like the partisan propaganda with zero truth value I have always said it is.

Nor can it be said that Netanyahoooooo's views are "extreme" within his Likud party. Most people would say that Netanyahooooo's view are towards the centre of Likud policy, not at the extremes. Check out Knesset Deputy leader and winner of 25% of the vote in the Likud primary Moshe ("I'm a proud homophobe") Feiglin to get a feel for the range of views in Likud.

It is revealing that you chose not to dispute any of implications of Natanyahoooooo's public trashing of the Two State Solution (that I listed in post #879). Instead you chose to advance another lie - that Netanyahoooooo is an extremist - and then resorted to the hate card a sure sign that you had no factual points to make.

Face it DK, Natanyahooooo had made more of a fool of you than even your posts do. He has made everyone who advanced the claim that Israel is a victim, the wounded party who only wants peace and to be left alone, look like idiots. He has confirmed all the claims I have been making on these boards about Israel's belligerent aggressive land stealing policies, about Israel's preference for war and land over peace.

People like you have a choice DK. You can carry on with your blind support for everything Isreal does or you can re-discover your commitment to human rights and justice and reject Netanyahooooooo's intransigence and war mongering. Netanyahooooo's emphatic rejection of peace makes that choice a simple and start one even for dimwits.




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 3:02:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ken, are you seriously suggesting that a man who has been at the top of Israeli politics for over 20 years, and is currently serving his third term as Prime Minister, has no pull ?

One has to wonder that if he is, in your words "extreme", why he keeps getting elected ?

Maybe it has to do with knowing the real situation on the ground.

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
The violence against Israel did not stop but Palestinians got what they claimed to want. No matter how much Israel gave up the hatred and rhetoric from the other side never ramped down and the violence continued. When Israel finally just sealed their borders with the territories, which seriously hurt the territories economies as it denied many Palestinians the ability to enter Israel to work, Hamas and the rest simply increased the number of rockets and mortars they fired across the border. It seems clear that some Palestinians will do anything to try and kill Jews. That sort of hatred does stir up memories. They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.




MrRodgers -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 3:24:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ken, are you seriously suggesting that a man who has been at the top of Israeli politics for over 20 years, and is currently serving his third term as Prime Minister, has no pull ?

One has to wonder that if he is, in your words "extreme", why he keeps getting elected ?

Maybe it has to do with knowing the real situation on the ground.

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
The violence against Israel did not stop but Palestinians got what they claimed to want. No matter how much Israel gave up the hatred and rhetoric from the other side never ramped down and the violence continued. When Israel finally just sealed their borders with the territories, which seriously hurt the territories economies as it denied many Palestinians the ability to enter Israel to work, Hamas and the rest simply increased the number of rockets and mortars they fired across the border. It seems clear that some Palestinians will do anything to try and kill Jews. That sort of hatred does stir up memories. They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.

In 2000 the Oslo peace process broke down following the failure of the Camp David summit and the outbreak of the second intifada. Why? Israelis claim that the Palestinians made a strategic choice to return to violence and consequently there was no Palestinian partner for peace. As I see it, Palestinian violence was a contributory factor, but not the main cause. The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal.

Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors.

Particularly destructive of the peace project was the policy of expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. These settlements are illegal under international law and constitute a huge obstacle to peace. Building civilian settlements beyond the Green Line does not violate the letter of the Oslo accords but it most decidedly violates its spirit. As a result of settlement expansion the area available for a Palestinian state has been steadily shrinking to the point where a two-state solution is barely conceivable.

The so-called security barrier that Israel has been building on the West Bank since 2002 further encroaches on Palestinian land. Land-grabbing and peace-making do not go together: it is one or the other. Oslo is essentially a land-for-peace deal. By expanding settlements all Israeli governments, Labour as well as Likud, contributed massively to its breakdown.

The rate of settlement growth in the West Bank and Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem is staggering. At the end of 1993 there were 115,700 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. Their number doubled during the following decade.

Today the number of Israeli settlers on the West Bank exceeds 350,000. There are an additional 300,000 Jews living in settlements across the pre-1967 border in East Jerusalem. Thousands more settlement homes are planned or under construction. Despite his best efforts, John Kerry, the US secretary of state, failed to get the Netanyahu government to accept a settlement freeze as a precondition for renewing the peace talks suspended in 2010. As long as Netanyahu remains in power, it is a safe bet that no breakthrough will be achieved in the new round of talks. He is the procrastinator par excellence, the double-faced prime minister who pretends to negotiate the partition of the pizza while continuing to gobble it up.




thishereboi -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 5:30:08 AM)

Yea, yea, yea. Everyone is just parroting the Israili claims when they should be doing like you and parroting the Palestinian claims. When will those idiots realize how stupid they are.

In the mean time your inability to type out Netanyahu without adding extra o's makes you look like a troll much like those who can't type Obama without putting their own little twist on it.

Is that really what you are going for?




Lucylastic -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 5:49:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
<snip>

In the mean time your inability to type out Netanyahu without adding extra o's makes you look like a troll much like those who can't type Obama without putting their own little twist on it.

Is that really what you are going for?


[8|]
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Why did your side decide to dump shrillary?


quote:



ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I said if Shrillary ran the left would suddenly switch from the right is all racist to the right is all misogynists, but I honestly didn't think it would happen this soon.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

As long as it isn't Shrillary we should be ok.




thishereboi -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 6:00:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
<snip>

In the mean time your inability to type out Netanyahu without adding extra o's makes you look like a troll much like those who can't type Obama without putting their own little twist on it.

Is that really what you are going for?


[8|]
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Why did your side decide to dump shrillary?


quote:



ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I said if Shrillary ran the left would suddenly switch from the right is all racist to the right is all misogynists, but I honestly didn't think it would happen this soon.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

As long as it isn't Shrillary we should be ok.




Yup you got me. such a clever little ass you are. I have no respect for the shrill little bitch. But she isn't the president of anything yet is she?




Lucylastic -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 6:11:56 AM)


narrowing the goal posts to excuse yourself, gets you



[image]http://www.ipprospective.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/troll-web.jpg[/image]




thishereboi -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 6:20:18 AM)

Aww, shucks thanks. but just knowing I have cleared that up for you is really enough.




PeonForHer -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 6:46:48 AM)

quote:

Yea, yea, yea. Everyone is just parroting the Israili claims when they should be doing like you and parroting the Palestinian claims. When will those idiots realize how stupid they are.


I must admit, I've been impressed to date by Tweakabelle's apparent diligence in researching before arriving at what appear to be her own views on the subject, THB.

Which parts of your own research conflict, exactly?




tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 7:05:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
[...]
They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.

Lies.

Netanyahooooo explicitly claims credit for destroying the Oslo Accords. There's even a video of him explaining to his followers how he did it. Here's an English transcript:
"Woman: The Oslo Accords are a disaster.
Netanyahu: Yes. You know that and I knew that…The people [nation] has to know…
What were the Oslo Accords? The Oslo Accords, which the Knesset signed, I was asked, before the elections: “Will you act according to them?” and I answered: “yes, subject to mutuality and limiting the retreats.” “But how do you intend to limit the retreats?” “I’ll give such interpretation to the Accords that will make it possible for me to stop this galloping to the ’67 [armistice] lines. How did we do it?

Narrator: The Oslo Accords stated at the time that Israel would gradually hand over territories to the Palestinians in three different pulses, unless the territories in question had settlements or military sites. This is where Netanyahu found a loophole.

Netanyahu: No one said what defined military sites. Defined military sites, I said, were security zones. As far as I’m concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.
Woman: Right [laughs]…The Beit She’an Valley.
Netanyahu: How can you tell. How can you tell? But then the question came up of just who would define what Defined Military Sites were. I received a letter – to my and to Arafat, at the same time – which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron Agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to my and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron Agreement. Or rather, ratify it, it had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord.

Woman: And despite that, one of our own people, excuse me, who knew it was a swindle, and that we were going to commit suicide with the Oslo Accord, gives them – for example – Hebron…

Netanyahu: Indeed, Hebron hurts. It hurts. It’s the thing that hurts. One of the famous rabbis, whom I very much respect, a rabbi of Eretz Yisrael, he said to me: “What would your father say?” I went to my father. Do you know a little about my father’s position?

…He’s not exactly a lily-white dove, as they say. So my father heard the question and said: “Tell the rabbi that your grandfather, Rabbi Natan Milikowski, was a smart Jew. Tell him it would be better to give two percent than to give a hundred percent. And that’s the choice here. You gave two percent and in that way you stopped the withdrawal. Instead of a hundred percent.” The trick is not to be there and be broken. The trick is to be there and pay a minimal price
.
" (emphasis added)
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2010/07/14/bibi-the-bamboozler-to-settlers-america-wont-get-in-our-way-its-easily-moved/

The video can be seen at link provided above.

Netanyahoooooo set out to deliberately destroy the Oslo Accords and he succeeded. It is simply a lie to assert the Palestinians were responsible. The credit belongs to Netanyahoooooo alone.

Netanyahoooooo and peace are incompatible, mutually exclusive zones. Netanyahoooooo's way of doing things has just been demonstrated in all its gory brutality in Gaza. If Israel elects such a person as its PM it is sending a signal to the world that it doesn't want peace.




GoddessManko -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 8:22:49 AM)

You know, this topic politically is one you are almost sure to lose no matter which bias (and there is bias) that you lean towards. Olmert, unlike Netanyahu was very PRO- bilateral agreement. At the time, our president (Bush) did absolutely zip to curb the violence between the two nations, to work with Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert who were BOTH moderates and it led to a decline in public sentiment in both countries as far as ironing out a peace deal and becoming good neighbors.
In contrast to the US, the children who grew up knowing missiles were coming to hit them in Israel grew up MORE conservative than their parents which led to a VERY right winged, hawkish government in Israel which is what the ministry of Defense wanted anyway. Olmert like Obama, was a lame duck standing pretty much alone in wanting the bilateral agreement and was slandered by talks of "controversy" by right wing factions within his country. The Palestinians moved further left in the meantime to the fringe Hamas party who has been trying to paint Israel as this big bully while they continue to fire missiles into Israel and causing any talks of peace to deteriorate. Both sides have he issue of political pandering with no real solution being met. When I'd criticize Israel, I'd do it to the jewish supporters who would call me a "muslim sympathizer". When I'd criticize Palestine to the muslims I'd be an "Israeli shill", if that alone doesn't show the rift on either side, I don't know what does.
There are too many biased and one sided arguments being thrown around for certain politicians to have their way. Their current primary issue as both countries have abandoned their more moderate governments and stances. Fixing that will be trying, unless of course we have a time machine. :)
Thankfully there is far less violence in that region than ever before, miraculously.




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 3:46:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ken, are you seriously suggesting that a man who has been at the top of Israeli politics for over 20 years, and is currently serving his third term as Prime Minister, has no pull ?

One has to wonder that if he is, in your words "extreme", why he keeps getting elected ?

Maybe it has to do with knowing the real situation on the ground.

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
The violence against Israel did not stop but Palestinians got what they claimed to want. No matter how much Israel gave up the hatred and rhetoric from the other side never ramped down and the violence continued. When Israel finally just sealed their borders with the territories, which seriously hurt the territories economies as it denied many Palestinians the ability to enter Israel to work, Hamas and the rest simply increased the number of rockets and mortars they fired across the border. It seems clear that some Palestinians will do anything to try and kill Jews. That sort of hatred does stir up memories. They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.

In 2000 the Oslo peace process broke down following the failure of the Camp David summit and the outbreak of the second intifada. Why? Israelis claim that the Palestinians made a strategic choice to return to violence and consequently there was no Palestinian partner for peace. As I see it, Palestinian violence was a contributory factor, but not the main cause. The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal.

Try this simple exercise.
Find one thing required by Oslo that the PA actually did. Then tell me how you can argue that it was Israel that reneged on the deal.




DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 3:55:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
[...]
They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.

Lies.

Netanyahooooo explicitly claims credit for destroying the Oslo Accords. There's even a video of him explaining to his followers how he did it. Here's an English transcript:

Just because a politician makes a claim many years after an event doesn't make the claim true dimwit.

The actual facts on the ground are that Israel did allow the creation of the PA. did allow elections. did pull out of all of Gaza and most of the West Bank and for that they got nothing. Not one of the things promised them by the PLO was ever done and the attacks on the Israeli people continue even after they sealed the borders.




thishereboi -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/18/2014 6:06:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Yea, yea, yea. Everyone is just parroting the Israili claims when they should be doing like you and parroting the Palestinian claims. When will those idiots realize how stupid they are.


I must admit, I've been impressed to date by Tweakabelle's apparent diligence in researching before arriving at what appear to be her own views on the subject, THB.

Which parts of your own research conflict, exactly?



And yet she seems to ignore 1/2 of the story. Apparently any violence coming from that side is justified.




tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/19/2014 1:29:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
[...]
They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.

Lies.

Netanyahooooo explicitly claims credit for destroying the Oslo Accords. There's even a video of him explaining to his followers how he did it. Here's an English transcript:

Just because a politician makes a claim many years after an event doesn't make the claim true dimwit.


What makes Netanyahoooo's boast credible is that the facts support his claim. The Oslo Accords were wrecked by Netanyahooooo who has opposed every concession the Israeli side has made to the Palestinians ever. That includes the withdrawal from Gaza, which was done primarily for demographic reasons and Gaza had become ungovernable because of the successes of the resistance. That includes the recent negotiations organised by US Sec of State Kerry, during which the Israeli side didn't make a single concession or gesture to make an agreement possible, as 'neutral' US negotiators (which featured lifelong Zionist Martin Indyk in a leading role) have confirmed.

During those negotiations, and despite repeated Palestinian and US demands, the Israelis refused to produce a map outlining their ideas of future borders with a Palestinian State. Why were they unable to comply with this straightforward request? Because they have no concept of a Palestinian State, and certainly no plans for any such State to come into being. Therefore no maps.

It is as clear as daylight that Israel has abandoned any pretence towards making the Two State Solution possible. Netanyahooooooo has said so in as many words. Why do dimwitted Zionist fanatics still try to maintain the charade that Israel is interested in reaching a peace deal when their Israeli masters have made it crystal clear that Israel has no such goal? What should we believe, DK's confected self serving version of events or our own eyes and ears? Do we accept DK's fictional yarns or do we accept the words of the Israeli PM, when those words are confirmed by all the available evidence?

DK, do you think that, on this issue, we are all as stupid and gullible as you so obviously are?




Kirata -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/19/2014 1:34:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel.

That absurdly fanatical notion has been at the bottom of this mess from the beginning.

K.








DomKen -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/19/2014 5:04:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel complied with Oslo.
The PLO and Hamas did not.
[...]
They tried peace and it didn't work. Now they are taking a hard line the other way for a while. Any rational person can understand it.

Lies.

Netanyahooooo explicitly claims credit for destroying the Oslo Accords. There's even a video of him explaining to his followers how he did it. Here's an English transcript:

Just because a politician makes a claim many years after an event doesn't make the claim true dimwit.


What makes Netanyahoooo's boast credible is that the facts support his claim. The Oslo Accords were wrecked by Netanyahooooo who has opposed every concession the Israeli side has made to the Palestinians ever. That includes the withdrawal from Gaza, which was done primarily for demographic reasons and Gaza had become ungovernable because of the successes of the resistance. That includes the recent negotiations organised by US Sec of State Kerry, during which the Israeli side didn't make a single concession or gesture to make an agreement possible, as 'neutral' US negotiators (which featured lifelong Zionist Martin Indyk in a leading role) have confirmed.

During those negotiations, and despite repeated Palestinian and US demands, the Israelis refused to produce a map outlining their ideas of future borders with a Palestinian State. Why were they unable to comply with this straightforward request? Because they have no concept of a Palestinian State, and certainly no plans for any such State to come into being. Therefore no maps.

It is as clear as daylight that Israel has abandoned any pretence towards making the Two State Solution possible. Netanyahooooooo has said so in as many words. Why do dimwitted Zionist fanatics still try to maintain the charade that Israel is interested in reaching a peace deal when their Israeli masters have made it crystal clear that Israel has no such goal? What should we believe, DK's confected self serving version of events or our own eyes and ears? Do we accept DK's fictional yarns or do we accept the words of the Israeli PM, when those words are confirmed by all the available evidence?

DK, do you think that, on this issue, we are all as stupid and gullible as you so obviously are?

As usual you ignore every fact.
Can you name anything required by Oslo that the PLO has ever done? Anything at all? You can't because they never fulfilled any requirement they had. Israel did meet many of their obligations. What do you do when the other side of an agreement never does any of the things the agreement requires? You stop fulfilling your side of it too.

Before Netanyahu, after him. It didn't matter the PLO never did anything they were required to do. Why should any one negotiate with an organization that not only doesn't fulfill its obligations but its leader announces in speeches before hand that he has no intention of doing so?
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=711&fld_id=723&doc_id=486




tweakabelle -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/21/2014 1:04:09 AM)

DK for as long as I have been posting here, you and the ever dwindling band of apologists for Israel, have been claiming that Israel desires a peace deal, that it is in favour of and committed to the Two State Solution, that Israel entered into negotiations in good faith, that the 'settlements' are a mere distraction, .... blah blah blah. You have insisted that the reason why a peace deal wasn't reached was solely the fault of the Palestinians, that Israel has no 'partner for peace".

Now no less a person than the Prime Minister of Israel has come clean and admitted that Israel will "never ever" agree to a Palestinian State in the West Bank. Ntanyahooooooo has pulled the carpet from under your feet. He has confirmed all the claims I have been advancing here for years - that Israel was uninterested in peace, that its real goal was the annexation of the West Bank, that the settlements and ethnic cleansing were designed to this end, that the Palestinians lacked a "partner for peace". You have denounced my claims consistently, often abusively and offensively. Now it turns out that my claims have all been confirmed by the Israeli PM.

When are you going to face the facts and accept that Israel has been duplicitous all along, that it has made people like you who defended it look like suckers? What greater authority can there be than the Prime Minister of Israel? If Netanyahooooo's admission of Israeli bad faith intransigence and lust for Palestinian land isn't sufficient to persuade you that you were wrong, what will? Are you so blinded by your fanatical zeal that your eyes are closed to all reality?




thishereboi -> RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... (8/21/2014 5:29:21 AM)




tweak for as long as I have been posting here, you and the ever dwindling band of apologists for Palestine, have been claiming that Palestine desires a peace deal, that it is in favor of and committed to the Two State Solution, that Palestine entered into negotiations in good faith, that the 'settlements' are a mere distraction, .... blah blah blah. You have insisted that the reason why a peace deal wasn't reached was solely the fault of the Israel, that Palestine has no 'partner for peace". And yet you bitch and whine when you think people are doing the same exact thing for the other side. And then you wonder why people don't take you seriously when you go on another rant against Israel. [8|]




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