RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires

RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 6:04:40 PM)
I think you are looking at the wrong picture....[8\|]

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 6:24:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether When I've asked gun owners why they have a firearm, the response is: To protect myself. Ok...from what? "Someone that might try to hurt me." Ok, who is that person? "I don't know, someone..." Are they tall? Are they short? Are they athletic built? Are they fat? Are they skinny? Are they skilled as CQB? Do they have one or more weapons? Do they have training (military, law enforcement, criminal backgrounds)? Do they have friends? Do those friends have weapons? Are they all attacking from the same direction? Or flanking on both sides? Or hitting on two sides at once? Does the person attacking and/or his/her friends have a vehicle useful in breaching (i.e. construction equipment, armor, or 'ramming vehicle')? And its usually 'No' across the board. To which I ask....If that is all true, how do you know if that gun will do you any good? I ask them if they have a fully stocked medical kit on par with an 'EMT's bag'? Most of them say 'no'. Even though the sort of things one could get in trouble with, with be helped more by such a bag than without it. The point is this: We can all argue on fantasy and 'what if' situations from all sides. And there is more than one or two sides to this issue. A firearm is only helpful in 0.01% of possible emergencies. In some emergencies it can bring about even more problems. So we can either deal in 'fantasyland' with all of our pet peeves on the topic of firearms in America; or look at the primary topic of the thread. My opinion of Bloomberg's ad? Not very well thought out,. I can see the point he's trying to make, in that allowing abusers to obtain firearms is wrong. Yet, the other hand, having a firearm the possible victim's hands in that moment...might...change the final outcome of events. And I say 'might' from a tactical point of view. Its one think to shoot at paper targets, in an A/C conditioned room, with plenty of time to pick up the gun, load it, and aim down range before firing. Quite a different thing, when picking up the gun, aiming, and firing at a target while your body is in the middle of 'fight or flight' response. That's were the blood drains from your hands and feet towards your chest; firing guns accurately is sharply impaired. The attacker(s) have had time to steady their nerves/rage towards the victim(s) and generally have surprise on their side. The defender(s) are STILL reacting to in the initial onslaught. What percentage of people actually train for this sort of thing? How their body, mind and emotions react? On the spur of the moment? To handle things like one or more attacker(s) initiating hostiles on the spur of the moment and without possible warning? Outside of Military and Law Enforcement? less than 1% is my guess. Having a loaded gun is one thing. Having the will to use it, is quite another. You can train all you want on those paper targets, and it'll mean shit when the real thing happens. Firearm owners are not all psychotic. They will and do try to end the confrontation peacefully while keeping the attackers from hurting them or others further. An therein lies the problem. If they call your bluff, and you do not act, that gun is as meaningless or more than if one didn't have a firearm. Your final line has two really big ifs. In every confrontation I have been in the intended attacker was wise enough not to call my bluff so they lived (and ran and screamed). Your first questions while they sound smart are stupid. For example I don't know which druggy might try to give me problems. Good chance he is taller than me, most likely not as fat (even though I have dropped about 25 lbs in the last 3 months), assuredly younger, and I would think in better shape. But to tell you exactly what they would look like is impossible unless I am being stalked and threatened by one particular person, and I don't know anyone that stupid.

Lucylastic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 6:28:59 PM)
By the way.....its great[X(][:'(] that the gun rights people missed the whole point of the ad...which is intended to show the dangers of guns in the hands of domestic abusers,. I posted about the move to decrease the rights of abusers to have guns it in another thread last week, which was poo poo'd by the gun fans http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4711768 The man charged with slaughtering six of his ex-wife's relatives in their Texas home Wednesday had a turbulent relationship with her and had been arrested for domestic-related charges in 2008, police records show. Ron Lee Haskell, 33, was looking for his ex-wife, Melannie Haskell, when he forced his way into her relatives’ home in the Houston suburb of Spring, police said. Haskell allegedly tied up five children — two boys, 4 and 13, and three girls, 7, 9 and 15 — as well as two adults, identified as husband-and-wife Stephen Stay, 39, and Katie Stay, 33. Each of them were shot execution-style in the back of the head, according to court documents. The 15-year-old girl survived and called 911, later identifying the shooter as her ex-uncle, the documents said. Police tracked down Ron Lee Haskell and arrested him after a more than three-hour standoff just after 10 p.m. local time. A domestic dispute apparently drove Haskell to track down his ex-wife in Texas, although she wasn’t at the home at the time of the slayings. Their marriage was suffering from problems as early as 2008, when the couple was living in Cache County, Utah. That year, Haskell was arrested on suspicion of domestic violence, simple assault and committing an act of violence in front of children. Melannie Haskell told police her husband dragged her out of their bedroom by her hair and hit her in the side of the head. Haskell said he had only pushed his wife, and that he was stressed from his job. The couple's children were ages 3 and 5 at the time. Haskell pleaded guilty to an assault charge. In 2009, Haskell told police that his wife had left and he believed she was going to harm herself. He followed up, and said he found his wife and was taking her to the hospital, records show. Then, a year ago, Melannie Haskell filed for an order of protection against him. A judge granted the order, and she filed for divorce the following month. The divorce was an anguishing time for Haskell. His brother in California contacted police, records show, and asked them to perform a welfare check because he was worried he might hurt himself. The brother later called back and told police he spoke with him and that they didn't need to investigate. In October, the protective order was dismissed when the Haskells agreed to a mutual restraining order in the divorce and custody arrangements involving their children. The judge also said Ron Lee Haskell’s visits would be supervised by a psychologist. “Mr. Haskell’s parent time will be supervised until such time that his physical therapist can report that the respondent is no longer a threat to the children,” the judge wrote. A relative told NBC News he had been living quietly with his parents in California since his divorce. “It’s very devastating for the whole family,” the relative said. “They just don’t know how this happened.” Haskell is charged with multiple counts of capital murder. According to Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Ron Hickman, he arrived at the Spring home “in the guise of a FedEx driver wearing a FedEx shirt.” Federal Express said in a statement that Haskell had “formerly provided service” for the company, but has not done so since January. Only the 15-year-old girl was home at the time, and when Haskell realized his ex-wife wasn’t there, he kicked in the door to gain entrance, she later told police. He tied the girl up, and then also tied up the other victims when they later arrived home. Hickman said that after Haskell left the home the injured teenage girl contacted authorities telling them the shooter was en route to shoot other family members. Law enforcement personnel located Haskell’s car and a low-speed chase ensued, ending in a cul-de-sac, Hickman said. A standoff then lasted more than three hours before Haskell exited the car, sank to his knees and surrendered. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/texas-family-killings/texas-slaying-suspect-was-once-arrested-domestic-violence-n152696 shame he didnt have the balls to top himself, instead of five kids n two adults

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 6:39:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether When I've asked gun owners why they have a firearm, the response is: To protect myself. Ok...from what? "Someone that might try to hurt me." Ok, who is that person? "I don't know, someone..." Are they tall? Are they short? Are they athletic built? Are they fat? Are they skinny? Are they skilled as CQB? Do they have one or more weapons? Do they have training (military, law enforcement, criminal backgrounds)? Do they have friends? Do those friends have weapons? Are they all attacking from the same direction? Or flanking on both sides? Or hitting on two sides at once? Does the person attacking and/or his/her friends have a vehicle useful in breaching (i.e. construction equipment, armor, or 'ramming vehicle')? And its usually 'No' across the board. To which I ask....If that is all true, how do you know if that gun will do you any good? I ask them if they have a fully stocked medical kit on par with an 'EMT's bag'? Most of them say 'no'. Even though the sort of things one could get in trouble with, with be helped more by such a bag than without it. The point is this: We can all argue on fantasy and 'what if' situations from all sides. And there is more than one or two sides to this issue. A firearm is only helpful in 0.01% of possible emergencies. In some emergencies it can bring about even more problems. So we can either deal in 'fantasyland' with all of our pet peeves on the topic of firearms in America; or look at the primary topic of the thread. My opinion of Bloomberg's ad? Not very well thought out,. I can see the point he's trying to make, in that allowing abusers to obtain firearms is wrong. Yet, the other hand, having a firearm the possible victim's hands in that moment...might...change the final outcome of events. And I say 'might' from a tactical point of view. Its one think to shoot at paper targets, in an A/C conditioned room, with plenty of time to pick up the gun, load it, and aim down range before firing. Quite a different thing, when picking up the gun, aiming, and firing at a target while your body is in the middle of 'fight or flight' response. That's were the blood drains from your hands and feet towards your chest; firing guns accurately is sharply impaired. The attacker(s) have had time to steady their nerves/rage towards the victim(s) and generally have surprise on their side. The defender(s) are STILL reacting to in the initial onslaught. What percentage of people actually train for this sort of thing? How their body, mind and emotions react? On the spur of the moment? To handle things like one or more attacker(s) initiating hostiles on the spur of the moment and without possible warning? Outside of Military and Law Enforcement? less than 1% is my guess. Having a loaded gun is one thing. Having the will to use it, is quite another. You can train all you want on those paper targets, and it'll mean shit when the real thing happens. Firearm owners are not all psychotic. They will and do try to end the confrontation peacefully while keeping the attackers from hurting them or others further. An therein lies the problem. If they call your bluff, and you do not act, that gun is as meaningless or more than if one didn't have a firearm. You mean after years of gun a phobics telling us how easy it is to kill with a gun now you say it isn't?

Sanity -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 6:45:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic By the way.....its great[X(][:'(] that the gun rights people missed the whole point of the ad...which is intended to show the dangers of guns in the hands of domestic abusers,. No, its you who misses the point Again, a man typically doesn't need a gun to do serious harm to a woman, whereas women could often use some help defending themselves while under assault If leftists are successful in their war on women, womens best method of defense will be taken away from them

Lucylastic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:11:41 PM)
no, that is the conservative idiot spin on it... Giving abusive dicks the ability legally to use guns against women is the issue look it up at the everytown site. go to the source, not your regurgitated crap

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic By the way.....its great[X(][:'(] that the gun rights people missed the whole point of the ad...which is intended to show the dangers of guns in the hands of domestic abusers,. No, its you who misses the point Again, a man typically doesn't need a gun to do serious harm to a woman, whereas women could often use some help defending themselves while under assault If leftists are successful in their war on women, womens best method of defense will be taken away from them The woman in the ad had no chance with a gun she would have had some chance.

Lucylastic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:15:05 PM)
FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (AP) — An angry husband sprayed his father-in-law's house with bullets from two 30-round magazines, killing two people, after his wife ran to the home during an argument Wednesday. The man later exchanged gunfire with authorities and died of a gunshot wound after hitting several deputies and a state trooper, Cumberland County Sheriff Earl "Moose" Butler said. "He just went wild," Butler said of the shooter. "I mean, shooting at random. He just turned it loose, that automatic. He unloaded it every time I think he pulled up there" in front of the victims' house. The violence began before 7 a.m., when 41-year-old Valerie Michaelis called 911 for help, authorities said. Michaelis and her husband, Andrew, were arguing and she said he was holding her at gunpoint. Investigators said Valerie Michaelis got the gun from her husband, who then pursued her with a knife. She fled to her father's house. Seven people were in the house when authorities say Andrew Michaelis drove by in his truck and discharged a 30-round magazine from what authorities described as an assault rifle. He killed two people: his wife's father, 61-year-old Gary Simpson, and Simpson's 10-year-old grandson, Trekwan Covington. Among those in the house was Ryan Michaelis, 13, who was there "because of problems in the home," Butler said. His father knew Ryan was in the Simpson home, the sheriff said. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/north-carolina-mobile-home-shooting_n_5634510.html?utm_hp_ref=crime

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:18:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic By the way.....its great[X(][:'(] that the gun rights people missed the whole point of the ad...which is intended to show the dangers of guns in the hands of domestic abusers,. No, its you who misses the point Again, a man typically doesn't need a gun to do serious harm to a woman, whereas women could often use some help defending themselves while under assault If leftists are successful in their war on women, womens best method of defense will be taken away from them You are right a woman has a better chance if both are armed than if neither is.

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:29:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic By the way.....its great[X(][:'(] that the gun rights people missed the whole point of the ad...which is intended to show the dangers of guns in the hands of domestic abusers,. No, its you who misses the point Again, a man typically doesn't need a gun to do serious harm to a woman, whereas women could often use some help defending themselves while under assault If leftists are successful in their war on women, womens best method of defense will be taken away from them Since when does disagreeing with something mean you don't understand it......When a liberal says it.

subrosaDom -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:35:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (AP) — An angry husband sprayed his father-in-law's house with bullets from two 30-round magazines, killing two people, after his wife ran to the home during an argument Wednesday. The man later exchanged gunfire with authorities and died of a gunshot wound after hitting several deputies and a state trooper, Cumberland County Sheriff Earl "Moose" Butler said. "He just went wild," Butler said of the shooter. "I mean, shooting at random. He just turned it loose, that automatic. He unloaded it every time I think he pulled up there" in front of the victims' house. The violence began before 7 a.m., when 41-year-old Valerie Michaelis called 911 for help, authorities said. Michaelis and her husband, Andrew, were arguing and she said he was holding her at gunpoint. Investigators said Valerie Michaelis got the gun from her husband, who then pursued her with a knife. She fled to her father's house. Seven people were in the house when authorities say Andrew Michaelis drove by in his truck and discharged a 30-round magazine from what authorities described as an assault rifle. He killed two people: his wife's father, 61-year-old Gary Simpson, and Simpson's 10-year-old grandson, Trekwan Covington. Among those in the house was Ryan Michaelis, 13, who was there "because of problems in the home," Butler said. His father knew Ryan was in the Simpson home, the sheriff said. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/north-carolina-mobile-home-shooting_n_5634510.html?utm_hp_ref=crime All we have to do is outlaw guns in the hands of domestic abusers. Just like we have outlawed guns in the hands of felons. Because it will work just as well. Leftists have trouble understanding that criminals do not obey the law any more than Kim Jong-un follows international norms for human rights.

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 7:39:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (AP) — An angry husband sprayed his father-in-law's house with bullets from two 30-round magazines, killing two people, after his wife ran to the home during an argument Wednesday. The man later exchanged gunfire with authorities and died of a gunshot wound after hitting several deputies and a state trooper, Cumberland County Sheriff Earl "Moose" Butler said. "He just went wild," Butler said of the shooter. "I mean, shooting at random. He just turned it loose, that automatic. He unloaded it every time I think he pulled up there" in front of the victims' house. The violence began before 7 a.m., when 41-year-old Valerie Michaelis called 911 for help, authorities said. Michaelis and her husband, Andrew, were arguing and she said he was holding her at gunpoint. Investigators said Valerie Michaelis got the gun from her husband, who then pursued her with a knife. She fled to her father's house. Seven people were in the house when authorities say Andrew Michaelis drove by in his truck and discharged a 30-round magazine from what authorities described as an assault rifle. He killed two people: his wife's father, 61-year-old Gary Simpson, and Simpson's 10-year-old grandson, Trekwan Covington. Among those in the house was Ryan Michaelis, 13, who was there "because of problems in the home," Butler said. His father knew Ryan was in the Simpson home, the sheriff said. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/north-carolina-mobile-home-shooting_n_5634510.html?utm_hp_ref=crime All we have to do is outlaw guns in the hands of domestic abusers. Just like we have outlawed guns in the hands of felons. Because it will work just as well. Leftists have trouble understanding that criminals do not obey the law any more than Kim Jong-un follows international norms for human rights. It would clearly be a much better world if he had not had a gun and had come back in the middle of the night burning the place down while everyone was asleep.

TheHeretic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 8:03:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 gundiot Don't try to co-opt my word, bitch. "Gundiots" are the ignorant motherfuckers who know nothing more about guns than that they are baa-aaad. That would be you. Moving on, I'm guessing you know as much about the reality of domestic violence as you do about guns. Arms over the head is exactly the posture of the defenseless, trying to protect themselve. Google up, "defensive wounds" and learn something.

TheHeretic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 8:06:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-roundup-family-of-5-including-children-found-dead-in-maine-apartment/2014/07/27/f46b22ea-15d3-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html MAINE Gun in apartment killed family of five A family of five, including three children, were found shot to death Sunday inside a southern Maine apartment, authorities said. Investigators said a gun was found near one of the bodies, and it appeared that no one outside the family was responsible for the shootings. State police Sgt. Chris Harriman said murder-suicide is one of the scenarios being investigated but that a determination will be made by the state medical examiner’s office. Authorities did not release the names of the family but said the parents were in their 30s and the children were ages 4, 7 and 12. The gun didn't kill that family, Lucy. The father did. It's called family annihilation. Horrible thing. In the UK, the leading methods are stabbings and carbon monoxide poisoning. A well known Canadian who did it to his family strangled them.

Sanity -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 8:10:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The gun didn't kill that family, Lucy. The father did. It's called family annihilation. Horrible thing. In the UK, the leading methods are stabbings and carbon monoxide poisoning. A well known Canadian who did it to his family strangled them. Women seem to like using cars and large bodies of water, poisons and bathtubs for the deed

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 8:14:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The gun didn't kill that family, Lucy. The father did. It's called family annihilation. Horrible thing. In the UK, the leading methods are stabbings and carbon monoxide poisoning. A well known Canadian who did it to his family strangled them. Women seem to like using cars and large bodies of water, poisons and bathtubs for the deed But when Archie Bunker asked "Would you be happier if they had been shoved out of windows little girl" she would have answered with a resounding YES!

TheHeretic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 8:20:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether When I've asked gun owners why they have a firearm, the response is: To protect myself. And your gundiot's response is to leap to all sorts of assumptions about what that means. You really are a useless fuck, Joether. How many times have you not answered the question about automatically assuming that means another human being? More times than you have actually asked your question of a person in realtime I'd bet. My family and home are far better protected against crime by location and a couple big dogs than they are by the shotgun, but it doesn't mean I don't keep that excellent tool for the job in a place where we can get to it in a hurry, should the need arise. Just FYI, old TV sets, and plastic bottles full of water, are a hell of a lot more fun to plink at than paper targets.

BamaD -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (7/31/2014 11:20:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: joether When I've asked gun owners why they have a firearm, the response is: To protect myself. And your gundiot's response is to leap to all sorts of assumptions about what that means. You really are a useless fuck, Joether. How many times have you not answered the question about automatically assuming that means another human being? More times than you have actually asked your question of a person in realtime I'd bet. My family and home are far better protected against crime by location and a couple big dogs than they are by the shotgun, but it doesn't mean I don't keep that excellent tool for the job in a place where we can get to it in a hurry, should the need arise. Just FYI, old TV sets, and plastic bottles full of water, are a hell of a lot more fun to plink at than paper targets. On the other hand I live not only in town but in the worst part of town, our animals are the two legged kind, but he still makes no accurate assumptions.

Lucylastic -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (8/1/2014 6:41:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (AP) — An angry husband sprayed his father-in-law's house with bullets from two 30-round magazines, killing two people, after his wife ran to the home during an argument Wednesday. The man later exchanged gunfire with authorities and died of a gunshot wound after hitting several deputies and a state trooper, Cumberland County Sheriff Earl "Moose" Butler said. "He just went wild," Butler said of the shooter. "I mean, shooting at random. He just turned it loose, that automatic. He unloaded it every time I think he pulled up there" in front of the victims' house. The violence began before 7 a.m., when 41-year-old Valerie Michaelis called 911 for help, authorities said. Michaelis and her husband, Andrew, were arguing and she said he was holding her at gunpoint. Investigators said Valerie Michaelis got the gun from her husband, who then pursued her with a knife. She fled to her father's house. Seven people were in the house when authorities say Andrew Michaelis drove by in his truck and discharged a 30-round magazine from what authorities described as an assault rifle. He killed two people: his wife's father, 61-year-old Gary Simpson, and Simpson's 10-year-old grandson, Trekwan Covington. Among those in the house was Ryan Michaelis, 13, who was there "because of problems in the home," Butler said. His father knew Ryan was in the Simpson home, the sheriff said. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/north-carolina-mobile-home-shooting_n_5634510.html?utm_hp_ref=crime All we have to do is outlaw guns in the hands of domestic abusers. Just like we have outlawed guns in the hands of felons. Because it will work just as well. Leftists have trouble understanding that criminals do not obey the law any more than Kim Jong-un follows international norms for human rights. Another mess of bullshit ...what a shock!!!

thishereboi -> RE: Bloomberg anti-gun ad backfires (8/1/2014 8:07:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic By the way.....its great[X(][:'(] that the gun rights people missed the whole point of the ad...which is intended to show the dangers of guns in the hands of domestic abusers,. No, its you who misses the point Again, a man typically doesn't need a gun to do serious harm to a woman, whereas women could often use some help defending themselves while under assault If leftists are successful in their war on women, womens best method of defense will be taken away from them The woman in the ad had no chance with a gun she would have had some chance. Yea, she could have shot him after he kicked the door down and ended it right there. But the point about domestic abusers is valid. They shouldn't have guns. Unfortunately people don't always follow the law so some people who shouldn't have guns still carry them. Not sure what Lucy's point was with the drive by. I don't think anyone suggested having a gun would protect you from that kind of shit. It sure as fuck couldn't have helped the 8 year old who was shot while he was home sleeping in bed the other night. Although if someone had had one when the 2 year old was killed, then a fuckwad walked up to her and shot her in the head might have been the one killed that night. But they didn't so we will never know. And amazingly enough, while I have talked to all kinds of people of these incidents, none of them brought up gun control as a possible answer. They are too busy trying to find out why people in the area are so angry that they feel the only solution is to go out and kill someone. They don't seem to be blaming the guns at all. Just the assholes who are running around using them.

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