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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 9/2/2014 5:22:19 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity



How does that work.


it's called politics

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 9/2/2014 5:35:23 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity



How does that work.


it's called politics


I see. You are claiming that Obama is just a political hack then.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 9/2/2014 6:52:00 PM   
cloudboy


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Maybe you could spend some time watching the FRONTLINE episode.

FRONTLINE NOMINATED FOR 11 EMMY AWARDS

FRONTLINE has earned 11 News and Documentary Emmy Award nominations this year for nine documentaries — including an experimental digital film — and a promotional campaign.

The National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences (NATAS) announced its 2014 nominations, including 43 total nods for PBS, today.

----

Journalism at it's finest.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 9/2/2014 8:11:33 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Maybe you could spend some time watching the FRONTLINE episode.

FRONTLINE NOMINATED FOR 11 EMMY AWARDS

FRONTLINE has earned 11 News and Documentary Emmy Award nominations this year for nine documentaries — including an experimental digital film — and a promotional campaign.

The National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences (NATAS) announced its 2014 nominations, including 43 total nods for PBS, today.

----

Journalism at it's finest.


Journalism is dead, has been for a long, long time. But you go on, don't mind me. Enjoy your brainwash.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 9/3/2014 5:27:29 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

In a speech at Ft. Bragg, NC on December 14, 2011, President Barack Obama said the United States was “leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people.”


What he wanted to say was that his predecessor was a fucking idiot who left him up to his neck in shit



Quit lying, that wasn't what he wanted to say. That is what you wanted him to say. And in either case it looks like he was wrong.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 12:07:58 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		The NYT on SUNDAY chronicalled the chilling histories of ISIS kidnapping of Westerners and the conditions they were subjected to in captivity.

What was apparent was how ISIS adopted the US techniques of torture and waterboarding used at Abu Ghraib and other black sites around the globe.

Takeaway: As revolted as we are by ISIS -- those members of ISIS and those mad at the USA are revolted by us. Whatever they do to us, we've done to them on an larger scale. Torture, detention, and de-Baathification have simply backfired on the USA. The US "War on Terror" has simply created a group of even more radical terrorists.

The Horror Before the Beheadings

ISIS Hostages Endured Torture and Dashed Hopes, Freed Cellmates Say



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/28/2014 12:09:00 PM >

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 12:30:23 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The NYT on SUNDAY chronicalled the chilling histories of ISIS kidnapping of Westerners and the conditions they were subjected to in captivity.

What was apparent was how ISIS adopted the US techniques of torture and waterboarding used at Abu Ghraib and other black sites around the globe.

Takeaway: As revolted as we are by ISIS -- those members of ISIS and those mad at the USA are revolted by us. Whatever they do to us, we've done to them on an larger scale. Torture, detention, and de-Baathification have simply backfired on the USA. The US "War on Terror" has simply created a group of even more radical terrorists.

The Horror Before the Beheadings

ISIS Hostages Endured Torture and Dashed Hopes, Freed Cellmates Say





We did everything first huh? Gosh I must have missed the video of us beheading someone, why don't you be a dear and provide a link.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 12:46:59 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		Note: The article is entitled "The Horror before the beheadings."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/28/2014 12:49:18 PM >

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 3:45:08 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Note: The article is entitled "The Horror before the beheadings."

And you don't understand that that one step they take it further overrides anything else? You don't understand that we did this to terrorists whereas they do it to innocents and that overrides anything else?

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 6:34:42 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Note: The article is entitled "The Horror before the beheadings."

And you don't understand that that one step they take it further overrides anything else? You don't understand that we did this to terrorists whereas they do it to innocents and that overrides anything else?



That's a rather convenient argument. How do you know that we did this only to terrorists? Could any of them have been innocent? Were any innocents killed in any of our ground actions or aerial bombardments in the Middle East?

Another difference might be that they're in their own country, while our people are considered invaders and outsiders. They live there, and we don't. Some might say that that would override anything else.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 7:56:00 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Note: The article is entitled "The Horror before the beheadings."



I was replying to the "takeaway" part which if I am not mistaken is your opinion.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 8:31:18 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Note: The article is entitled "The Horror before the beheadings."

And you don't understand that that one step they take it further overrides anything else? You don't understand that we did this to terrorists whereas they do it to innocents and that overrides anything else?



That's a rather convenient argument. How do you know that we did this only to terrorists? Could any of them have been innocent? Were any innocents killed in any of our ground actions or aerial bombardments in the Middle East?

Another difference might be that they're in their own country, while our people are considered invaders and outsiders. They live there, and we don't. Some might say that that would override anything else.
And we live here and they don't. Many of those captured and "tortured" by us were captured in our country. As for innocents...how many in the towers were guilty, cloudboy? The Pentagon? The plane that crashed in the field? The Boston Marathon? And on...And on.

I never said our hands are blood-free. I said there's a difference between our conclusion to torture and to their conclusion to torture. And, given your outlook on our country seeing their "innocent" people who come here as "invaders", I am surprised you see their looking at our innocents...news reporters for the most part...as "invaders" as being okay. Or does us...being the big, evil west...make that outlook on their part okay?

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 9:06:24 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		You are 100% missing the point. The waterboarding, the torture, the interrogations, and the treatment of their prisoners looks modeled after US techniques.

When one thinks this is horrible for Western kidnapping victims, one also must remember that same horror was experienced by the victims of US torture and rendition -- conducted on a rather wide scale in and outside of IRAQ. This US practice has helped breedand create ISIS.

Why would you even argue about this point?

Estimates are that 100,000 IRAQIs died after the US invaded and destabilized the country. Why would the people there take kindly to that outcome?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/28/2014 9:08:11 PM >

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 9:18:31 PM   
DaddySatyr


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I wonder if, a decade from now, people will be waxing eloquent about the mistake of getting involved in Syria?







Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/28/2014 9:24:55 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You are 100% missing the point. The waterboarding, the torture, the interrogations, and the treatment of their prisoners looks modeled after US techniques.

When one thinks this is horrible for Western kidnapping victims, one also must remember that same horror was experienced by the victims of US torture and rendition -- conducted on a rather wide scale in and outside of IRAQ. This US practice has helped breedand create ISIS.

Why would you even argue about this point?

Estimates are that 100,000 IRAQIs died after the US invaded and destabilized the country. Why would the people there take kindly to that outcome?
Show me where I stated that we didn't torture them. Show me where I argued that point with you. I'll even give you some leeway in your point that we helped to create ISIS...

No, I am not missing the point. You are stating that our torture led to more radical terrorist than what they already were...therefore, since we created terrorists that now use our methods of torture, we also created the beheaders amongst them since we made them more radical.

I just don't happen to agree with your roundabout, forgive the" radical victims turned more radical" point that we're...in the end...responsible for their decision to go beyond the torture to beheading.


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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/29/2014 6:47:05 AM   
cloudboy


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Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		OK. I don't have a forgiving view of ISIS -- but what struck me about reading the NYT piece --- how that made me feel about them -- they have the same type of reasons to feel upset about us.

Believe me I don't like or condone the snatching and torture of aid workers, journalists, and other Westerns for kidnap, torture, ransom, and murder. Our hands, however, are not clean in this matter.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/29/2014 6:48:01 AM >

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/29/2014 7:30:10 AM   
Zonie63


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Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Note: The article is entitled "The Horror before the beheadings."

And you don't understand that that one step they take it further overrides anything else? You don't understand that we did this to terrorists whereas they do it to innocents and that overrides anything else?



That's a rather convenient argument. How do you know that we did this only to terrorists? Could any of them have been innocent? Were any innocents killed in any of our ground actions or aerial bombardments in the Middle East?

Another difference might be that they're in their own country, while our people are considered invaders and outsiders. They live there, and we don't. Some might say that that would override anything else.
And we live here and they don't. Many of those captured and "tortured" by us were captured in our country. As for innocents...how many in the towers were guilty, cloudboy? The Pentagon? The plane that crashed in the field? The Boston Marathon? And on...And on.


We were talking about Iraq and ISIS, neither of which had anything to do with 9/11 or the Boston Marathon bombings. You're using the same phony arguments that got us embroiled in Iraq in the first place. If what you're saying is true, then these bombings were a matter of domestic security and did not necessitate invading other countries. We can and should protect our own soil here on our own soil. Invading or bombing Iraq did not protect us from any terrorists operating within America.

quote:


I never said our hands are blood-free. I said there's a difference between our conclusion to torture and to their conclusion to torture. And, given your outlook on our country seeing their "innocent" people who come here as "invaders", I am surprised you see their looking at our innocents...news reporters for the most part...as "invaders" as being okay. Or does us...being the big, evil west...make that outlook on their part okay?


No, it doesn't make it "okay." None of this is "okay," and I never said that it was. I'm just saying that there are two sides to every story, and just because I don't look at the West as a paragon of virtue and defenders of freedom and justice around the world, it doesn't mean that I think that we're "evil." I just don't believe in these kinds of illusions.

Your point about 9/11 would indicate that you and many other Americans don't like it when our country is bombed. That being the case, it would stand to reason that people in other countries don't like their countries being bombed either.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/29/2014 7:44:50 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

OK. I don't have a forgiving view of ISIS ---

Really? Because your posts would indicate otherwise...your posts would indicate that whatever ISIS does is ultimately our fault.
quote:

Our hands, however, are not clean in this matter.
No kidding. Something I've noted in my last several responses to you. But the one thing our torturing hands are clean of? Beheading.

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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/29/2014 8:07:00 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

our people are considered invaders


What about the Kuwaitis and the Iraqi Kurds etc


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RE: Frontline: How the US lost IRAQ - 10/29/2014 10:30:15 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Sanity

But you go on, don't mind me.

As if anyone but a right wing asshole would.


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