RE: Rioting is the answer (Full Version)

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thishereboi -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 5:34:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Please respond to the actual question about how the Police handled the crime scene afterward. That has nothing to do with the victim's state of mind.

Why (the question is why!) would a 22 year old with no criminal record go for a police officer's gun (in the middle of the Street) after stealing a box of cigars?



Why would a 22 yr old with no criminal record steal the cigars in the first place? He was on his way to college and had to know if he got caught he would ruin his chances. So why take a chance for a $5 box of smokes. You are expecting rational choices from someone who had already proved he couldn't make them.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 5:46:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Allowing the officer to leave the scene was prudent because keeping him at the scene could have been a serious problem. This was a potential crime scene, all sorts of things must be accounted for and documented. Would you rather have had them come in, pick the body up right away, spray the blood away and remove all traces it ever happened? That little blurb makes a big deal out of investigation the incident. It is terrible that people had to see it, but come on man, what are you supposed to do? If they cleaned up the area quickly they would be accused of not caring, they take their time to investigate and get the same accusation. You cannot win in that situation.

Not a potential crime scene. It was a crime scene and by letting the perpetrator leave the scene before evidence was collected the scene was hopelessly contaminated.

However the victim should have been transported to the hospital. That is standard procedure. He might have been saved.

Since it is your diagnosis, it is clearly correct, but how did you know he was alive. After all since that no good racist cop fired every round he had in to the poor little child's body he had to be dead. Oh, I know since everyone who works for the city is a racist thug (you having interviewed all of them) they were of course making sure he died.
The other possibility is they knew he was already dead. I realize that even if he was dead that there is zero possibility that any rational person would do things any different than you think they should.

Because dimwit even if the EMT's found no pulse and no breathing when they arrived on scene it was only a few minutes after the shooting so if they began life saving measures immediately and transported to a trauma center there may have been a chance to revive. No one on scene could have known for sure one way or another.

If you check with police or EMT's you will find that that is SOP for gunshot victims in that circumstance. That Brown was left lying on the ground for hours is very unusual.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 6:06:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

1: Once it became an officer involved shooting, it was no longer in the hands of the original officer or his squad. At this point a detective would have taken over, usually Internal Affairs. It's not at all uncommon for the officer involved to be removed from the scene to be interviewed, to seek medical attention, to contact a lawyer, etc.

Letting him leave the scene without collecting evidence and in his vehicle destroyed chain of custody.

quote:

2: Brown was shot in the head. He had a hole in his head big enough for a witness (Mr Stone I believe it was) to see. Maybe I'm not up on my first aid, but CPR is pretty useless if there's a bullet in the brain.
3: If he was dead, perhaps they were holding him for the coroner?

I can find no such report. And even if grey matter was on the ground SOP is still to transport to the hospital.
quote:

4: Because they wanted to have all the facts before they released it?

The incident report is written the day of the incident. It is a public document covered by Missouri's Sunshine law.

quote:

5: Wasn't the coroner's report released at the same time as the other official reports? Seems reasonable to release it all at once, rather then piece-meal.
The coroner's report is a public document covered by Missouri's Sunshine law. Are you noticing a trend?

quote:

6: No clue why they didn't notify the chief sooner.
A small department has an officer involved shooting that ends with a death and the chief isn't immediately notified? I've got a very good idea why. The supervisor was letting the killer get his story worked out before the bosses got involved.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 6:15:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
And that claim was quickly dropped because the claim was so ludicrous. Just look at the guy in question and try and imagine him reaching in a car window and getting a gun out of a safety holster and somehow firing it.


Hmmm, but the story by Brown's accomplice, that the cop reached out of the car and was strangling him makes so much more sense? You were in the military Ken, can you honestly tell me you think it's possible for someone wearing a vest and weapons belt to lean far enough out of a sedan window to strangle someone? Especially someone as big as Brown?

It wasn't a sedan. It was a SUV. So yes I can easily imagine it.  Especially someone as big as Brown.




Zonie63 -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 7:56:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted
If one officer was trying to control a nearly 300 pound suspect, by himself, that's not easy. Perhaps he was trying to get him into the car to hold him there till back-up arrived? Once the doors are closed, they only open from the outside.


I remember a situation many years ago where a suspect was shot by a female police officer who was too small to subdue him physically, so she shot him (he was burglarizing the offices of an ice company). I wonder if this was a similar situation, if the officer was small trying to subdue a much larger man.

Maybe he should have waited until he got back up before even trying anything at all. Or he could have just let him go, since (as far as the cop knew at that time), Brown's only "crime" was walking down the street instead of the sidewalk. Just letting it go would have been the wise move, but I know that so many cops get "badge ego" and think "I can't let him get away with disrespecting the cops, no matter how small the violation. I must teach him a lesson." I've heard cops say this and have seen this in practice, where cops say that they have to come down hard on any kind of "disrespect" for law enforcement.

Could this have been at work in this case? Were officers in this department told that they must respond to every act of defiance against the police, no matter how small?







BitYakin -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 10:30:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted
If one officer was trying to control a nearly 300 pound suspect, by himself, that's not easy. Perhaps he was trying to get him into the car to hold him there till back-up arrived? Once the doors are closed, they only open from the outside.


I remember a situation many years ago where a suspect was shot by a female police officer who was too small to subdue him physically, so she shot him (he was burglarizing the offices of an ice company). I wonder if this was a similar situation, if the officer was small trying to subdue a much larger man.

Maybe he should have waited until he got back up before even trying anything at all. Or he could have just let him go, since (as far as the cop knew at that time), Brown's only "crime" was walking down the street instead of the sidewalk. Just letting it go would have been the wise move, but I know that so many cops get "badge ego" and think "I can't let him get away with disrespecting the cops, no matter how small the violation. I must teach him a lesson." I've heard cops say this and have seen this in practice, where cops say that they have to come down hard on any kind of "disrespect" for law enforcement.

Could this have been at work in this case? Were officers in this department told that they must respond to every act of defiance against the police, no matter how small?






or MAYBE his offense was PHYSICALLY ASSUALTING a police officer? lil more serious than JAYWALKING...




BitYakin -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 10:48:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

1: Once it became an officer involved shooting, it was no longer in the hands of the original officer or his squad. At this point a detective would have taken over, usually Internal Affairs. It's not at all uncommon for the officer involved to be removed from the scene to be interviewed, to seek medical attention, to contact a lawyer, etc.

Letting him leave the scene without collecting evidence and in his vehicle destroyed chain of custody.

quote:

2: Brown was shot in the head. He had a hole in his head big enough for a witness (Mr Stone I believe it was) to see. Maybe I'm not up on my first aid, but CPR is pretty useless if there's a bullet in the brain.
3: If he was dead, perhaps they were holding him for the coroner?

I can find no such report. And even if grey matter was on the ground SOP is still to transport to the hospital.
quote:

4: Because they wanted to have all the facts before they released it?

The incident report is written the day of the incident. It is a public document covered by Missouri's Sunshine law.

quote:

5: Wasn't the coroner's report released at the same time as the other official reports? Seems reasonable to release it all at once, rather then piece-meal.
The coroner's report is a public document covered by Missouri's Sunshine law. Are you noticing a trend?

quote:

6: No clue why they didn't notify the chief sooner.
A small department has an officer involved shooting that ends with a death and the chief isn't immediately notified? I've got a very good idea why. The supervisor was letting the killer get his story worked out before the bosses got involved.


apparently an ambulance WAS THERE

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/


Saturday Aug. 9

11:48 a.m. to noon – An officer responds to a call of a sick person.

11:51 a.m. – Another call comes in about a robbery at a convenience store. The dispatcher gives a description of the robber and says the suspect is walking toward the Quick Trip convenience store.

12:01 p.m. – The officer encounters Michael Brown and a friend as they walk down a street. Brown is shot to death as a result of the encounter.

12:04 p.m. – A second officer arrives on the scene followed by a supervisor one minute later. An ambulance responding to the earlier sick person call drives by and responds to assess Brown.

OPPPPSSSSS

or is this another RIGHT WING RACIST LIE?



I am sure you realize that for the "sunshine law" to have any bearing a written request must be made (as opposed to an angery mob yelling "we want answers) and they have three business days to comply right? ALSO there are extenuating circumstances where they can basicly take as much time as they need to provide said documents


Section 610.023.3, RSMo, requires that each request be responded to as soon as possible, but no later than the end of the third business day following the custodian of records' receipt of the request. If access is not granted immediately, the custodian of records is required to explain the reason for the delay and the earliest date and time that the records will be available. Therefore, public governmental bodies are allowed to exceed the three days for production, but they are required to notify you of the delay and explain when they anticipate the records will be ready.

ALSO


Sections 610.100.3 and 610.100.4, RSMo, state that the agency has the authority to withhold the disclosure of records that may otherwise be subject to disclosure under two circumstances. First, if the agency has an articulable concern over the safety of a victim, witness, or other person if the record is revealed. Second, disclosure is not necessary if the criminal investigation is likely to be jeopardized. However, the agency may need court approval for withholding this information.

ya might wanna try LOOKING some of this stuff up




cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 10:49:34 AM)

Eye Witness Account:

>>About 10 minutes before his death, surveillance video shows, Brown walked into Ferguson Market & Liquor, a small convenience store half a mile from the spot where he was killed.

In the images, the young man whose family described him as gentle reaches over the counter and roughly yanks out a box of Swisher Sweets cigars.

He is accompanied by his friend, Johnson, a slight 120 pounds and four years older, who has emerged as a key witness. In the footage, Brown fills the screen, thickly built and in long khaki shorts, a white T-shirt and sandals.

Boxes of cigars scatter as Brown appears to argue with a clerk. While Brown scoops the cigar boxes from the floor, the clerk comes out from behind the counter, seemingly trying to block his path and close the door.

Brown shoves the much smaller clerk into a snack display. When the clerk comes back at him, Brown puffs his chest and steps toward the clerk in a show of intimidation. The clerk retreats and Brown leaves, carrying cigars worth $48.99.

Johnson, who has not been charged, has told FBI investigators that he thought his friend was doing “a prank,” Bosley, his attorney, said in an interview with The Washington Post on Saturday.

From there, it was only short hop down West Florissant Avenue, a route that took them past faded strip-mall storefronts, a nail salon, a barbershop, a check-cashing business, a burger joint.

As they turned onto Canfield Drive, they were only blocks from Johnson’s home and the apartment of Brown’s grandmother. They walked in the middle of the street, rather than the sidewalk, hugging the center line.

Wilson drove past them in his patrol car.

He told them, “Get on the f------ sidewalk,” Bosley said Johnson has told him. Johnson protested to Wilson that they were almost home.

The officer put his cruiser in reverse, Bosley said, and pulled up so close that when he opened the door, it bumped Johnson and Brown. “Through the window of his cruiser, he grabs Big Mike by the throat,” Bosley said. “Big Mike tries to move away. The officer grabs his shirt.”

Johnson, who was a student at Lincoln University, saw the officer pull out a gun. “He shoots Big Mike somewhere in the chest or arm,” Bosley said. “Dorian sees blood coming from the chest.”

Johnson took off running and hid behind the first car he saw, Bosley said. “Big Mike runs by him. He says to Dorian, ‘Keep running,’ ” Bosley said. “The officer chases Big Mike. He fires a shot and hits Big Mike in the back. Big Mike turns around. [Brown] puts his hands up. The officer shoots him five or six more times.”

After Brown was shot and on the ground, Bosley said, Wilson did not report the shooting immediately or call for emergency medical help.

There was confusion at the emergency call center in the minutes after the shooting.<<




altoonamaster -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 10:58:15 AM)

all of this is being told by johnson the same person who says stealing the cigars was a joke/this is their witness




BitYakin -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 11:28:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Eye Witness Account:

>>About 10 minutes before his death, surveillance video shows, Brown walked into Ferguson Market & Liquor, a small convenience store half a mile from the spot where he was killed.

In the images, the young man whose family described him as gentle reaches over the counter and roughly yanks out a box of Swisher Sweets cigars.

He is accompanied by his friend, Johnson, a slight 120 pounds and four years older, who has emerged as a key witness. In the footage, Brown fills the screen, thickly built and in long khaki shorts, a white T-shirt and sandals.

Boxes of cigars scatter as Brown appears to argue with a clerk. While Brown scoops the cigar boxes from the floor, the clerk comes out from behind the counter, seemingly trying to block his path and close the door.

Brown shoves the much smaller clerk into a snack display. When the clerk comes back at him, Brown puffs his chest and steps toward the clerk in a show of intimidation. The clerk retreats and Brown leaves, carrying cigars worth $48.99.

Johnson, who has not been charged, has told FBI investigators that he thought his friend was doing “a prank,” Bosley, his attorney, said in an interview with The Washington Post on Saturday.

From there, it was only short hop down West Florissant Avenue, a route that took them past faded strip-mall storefronts, a nail salon, a barbershop, a check-cashing business, a burger joint.

As they turned onto Canfield Drive, they were only blocks from Johnson’s home and the apartment of Brown’s grandmother. They walked in the middle of the street, rather than the sidewalk, hugging the center line.

Wilson drove past them in his patrol car.

He told them, “Get on the f------ sidewalk,” Bosley said Johnson has told him. Johnson protested to Wilson that they were almost home.

The officer put his cruiser in reverse, Bosley said, and pulled up so close that when he opened the door, it bumped Johnson and Brown. “Through the window of his cruiser, he grabs Big Mike by the throat,” Bosley said. “Big Mike tries to move away. The officer grabs his shirt.”

Johnson, who was a student at Lincoln University, saw the officer pull out a gun. “He shoots Big Mike somewhere in the chest or arm,” Bosley said. “Dorian sees blood coming from the chest.”

Johnson took off running and hid behind the first car he saw, Bosley said. “Big Mike runs by him. He says to Dorian, ‘Keep running,’ ” Bosley said. “The officer chases Big Mike. He fires a shot and hits Big Mike in the back. Big Mike turns around. [Brown] puts his hands up. The officer shoots him five or six more times.”

After Brown was shot and on the ground, Bosley said, Wilson did not report the shooting immediately or call for emergency medical help.

There was confusion at the emergency call center in the minutes after the shooting.<<


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/


Saturday Aug. 9

11:48 a.m. to noon – An officer responds to a call of a sick person.

11:51 a.m. – Another call comes in about a robbery at a convenience store. The dispatcher gives a description of the robber and says the suspect is walking toward the Quick Trip convenience store.

12:01 p.m. – The officer encounters Michael Brown and a friend as they walk down a street. Brown is shot to death as a result of the encounter.

12:04 p.m. – A second officer arrives on the scene followed by a supervisor one minute later. An ambulance responding to the earlier sick person call drives by and responds to assess Brown.




TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 11:39:34 AM)

FR

What remains to be seen of course, is how well the eyewitness account of the criminal accomplice will match up to the physical evidence. I understand the FBI is very good at putting the pieces together from crime scenes.




Marini -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 11:47:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

What remains to be seen of course, is how well the eyewitness account of the criminal accomplice will match up to the physical evidence. I understand the FBI is very good at putting the pieces together from crime scenes.


Do you think the FBI is as good as our resident "experts" on here?
[;)]




TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 11:52:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Do you think the FBI is as good as our resident "experts" on here?
[;)]


What never ceases to amaze me is how some of the locals manage to stay so ignorant, given the amount of free time they have on their hands.




thompsonx -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 11:58:34 AM)

Fr:

The o.j. trial showed the fbi could not find their ass with both hands if they had map.




kdsub -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 12:05:40 PM)

Just curious... what do you think the odds that the Justice Department will return a non-political investigation? I would say there is a very good chance that after all the evidence is gathered it will come down to the officers version against Brown's friend. I think all the rest of the so called witnesses will be found to not be reliable.

What will they do when they have no choice but to not bring charges? Will they decide to withhold evidence so they can use a Grand Jury as a scapegoat?

They took a big chance in jumping in to take over the investigation and now it may very well backfire... because it will make no difference how innocent this officer is to the Blacks of Ferguson. The only thing that will please them is to have him dragged to the City Square and hanged till dead.

If the Justice Department tries to railroad him the Republican party, that could not care less the African American reaction, will crucify Obama and cement votes in the next election...and if they don't African Americans will continue with riots and looting....again costing Democratic votes among whites in search of law and order.

Butch





DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 12:11:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

all of this is being told by johnson the same person who says stealing the cigars was a joke/this is their witness

It does match up to the radio calls and 911 calls as far as that goes.




DomKen -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 12:20:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just curious... what do you think the odds that the Justice Department will return a non-political investigation? I would say there is a very good chance that after all the evidence is gathered it will come down to the officers version against Brown's friend. I think all the rest of the so called witnesses will be found to not be reliable.

If Brown has bullet wounds in both his front and his back and the lethal wound shows he was kneeling when it hit him, it will be very hard to argue this as a justifiable shooting. That is just the physical evidence independent of the witness testimony that Brown had his hands up.

Keep in mind LEO's are allowed to use deadly force under very limited circumstances. To protect their own lives, to protect the lives of others and to stop a fleeing felon basically. If Brown had surrendered when the fatal shot was fired then no matter what else transpired before it is a bad shooting and Wilson is in a lot of trouble.




BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 12:27:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

What remains to be seen of course, is how well the eyewitness account of the criminal accomplice will match up to the physical evidence. I understand the FBI is very good at putting the pieces together from crime scenes.


Do you think the FBI is as good as our resident "experts" on here?
[;)]

Only if they decide that Wilson is a mad dog racist killer otherwise they are part of the conspiracy.




TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 12:28:09 PM)

First off, Butch, let's get rid of this Repub/Dem aspect you are trying to push. The entity most interested in this going away and maintaining the status quo is the police union, and public sector unions are not the Repub point of view. Where I see Republicans weighing in on this is how this case has spotlighted the militarization of our police forces.

I certainly hope the FBI will approach this from a neutral perspective. Unless walking in the middle of the street and blocking traffic without a parade permit is a civil right I'm not familiar with, I don't see where they are in a position to pursue charges. If there is physical evidence that Brown assaulted Wilson, the FBI lab is probably the best place in the world for it to be found, and they can provide that the St. Louis County DA, or the MO Attorney General so those decision can be made.




kdsub -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/17/2014 12:28:19 PM)

That is if your proposed version is right... what if it is not... what if the physical evidence backs up the offers story... or if the evidence could go either way... what do you say then? Do you really think any innocent declaration of this officer will be believed? Be truthful DomKen... I really would like an honest answer.

What if there is not enough evidence to bring charges because it is ones word against another? In normal circumstances charges would not be leveled in that case. What happens then?


Butch




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