RE: Rioting is the answer

RE: Rioting is the answer (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 5:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy So, you defend (otherwise why bring it up on this thread) emptying one's magazine into an unarmed person? You see a rationale for it? Based on the facts we know -- the officer emptying his magazine (in the case sub justice) is the most damning evidence on the table. There is no defensible rationale for it, PERIOD. END OF STORY. No, I think she was questioning your reading comprehension. And I must say you have just proven her point. So how about taking your head out of the clouds and responding to the things that people say and not the voices in your head. It isn't the clouds his head is stuck up.

PeonForHer -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 5:57:19 PM)
quote: I would have done the same thing, but neither one of us are cops in St Louis so it really doesn't matter what we would have done. True, but the only way into understanding this is to try to put ourselves in the place of the cop and the kid, though.

thishereboi -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 5:58:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas ...has marijuana in his bloodstream which explains his aggressive attack on the store keeper and the cop. ?????????? I don't know about anyone else but in all the years I used marijuana with countless friends and cohorts, the last thing it ever seemed to make any of us was "aggressive". Just sayin'. Possibly if you got between someone and the MnM's but even then I doubt it. Maybe if you were bogarting the smoke.

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:00:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas Yeah, that's important. I suppose it makes no difference either way when he charges you out of the night after being ordered to freeze. Yup. Sorry, my friend. Common sense and truth is prevailing. Damn, right? Myself, I'd just wind up my car window, put the car in gear, and move. Then maybe get out of the car and tell the man to stop screwing with me. But that's just me, my idea of common sense, and the little facts that I wouldn't have a gun, and nor would he, anyway. I would have done the same thing, but neither one of us are cops in St Louis so it really doesn't matter what we would have done. Cops can't back away from a confrontation. If they do every stop becomes a confrontation and there are more incidents like this.

TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:08:19 PM)
FR Well, since I only watched 2 1/2 seasons of Dexter, and have only had CSI inflicted on when watching TV in the homes of others, I think I'm going to defer to the expert from NYC who says he can't be sure what the results say with any certainty yet. Here is a fun question to throw in though - If Michael Brown hadn't been the victim here, would he among those looting and burning?

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:10:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR Well, since I only watched 2 1/2 seasons of Dexter, and have only had CSI inflicted on when watching TV in the homes of others, I think I'm going to defer to the expert from NYC who says he can't be sure what the results say with any certainty yet. Here is a fun question to throw in though - If Michael Brown hadn't been the victim here, would he among those looting and burning? Interesting question but unanswerable

subrosaDom -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:12:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR Well, since I only watched 2 1/2 seasons of Dexter, and have only had CSI inflicted on when watching TV in the homes of others, I think I'm going to defer to the expert from NYC who says he can't be sure what the results say with any certainty yet. Here is a fun question to throw in though - If Michael Brown hadn't been the victim here, would he among those looting and burning? You should have watched 4 seasons of Dexter for the quality. The reason to watch the seasons after that would have been to learn how to kill people in airports and other public places with millions of cameras around and remain undiscovered all without covering up your face. It is certainly not out of the question that had someone else been killed by the police, Brown would have been among the rioters. He seems to possess that je ne sais quoi.

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:26:13 PM)
My point is that shooting six bullets into the unarmed victim is a damning fact. It's a bit like Res ipsa loquitur in a tort case. I lay down my tent pole here. I suspect more is at play implicating the police department, and that less will be available to exonerate the officer in the shooting. If you were this officer's defense attorney --- the six shots into the unarmed, 18 year old victim would be the most difficult fact to explain. I don't see how you can do it.

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:31:53 PM)
The officer's behavior is hard to fathom. Stopping someone for jay walking and then firing six shots into the jay walker after an "altercation." It does not add up.

Kirata -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:35:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy If you were this officer's defense attorney --- the six shots into the unarmed, 18 year old victim would be the most difficult fact to explain. I don't see how you can do it. According to two published accounts, Brown took several rounds and kept coming. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: "It can be because he's giving up, or because he's charging forward at the officer," Baden said. K.

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:46:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The officer's behavior is hard to fathom. Stopping someone for jay walking and then firing six shots into the jay walker after an "altercation." It does not add up. But attacking the officer over jaywalking makes sense to you.

Gauge -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 6:57:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy My point is that shooting six bullets into the unarmed victim is a damning fact. It's a bit like Res ipsa loquitur in a tort case. I lay down my tent pole here. I suspect more is at play implicating the police department, and that less will be available to exonerate the officer in the shooting. If you were this officer's defense attorney --- the six shots into the unarmed, 18 year old victim would be the most difficult fact to explain. I don't see how you can do it. There is a simple problem, you are using a post hoc logical fallacy: because 6 shots were fired then it was homicide. The kid was shot, the cop shot him, it was homicide, is jumping to a conclusion. I can easily explain several ways it could happen. 1. It was, in fact, a homicide and the cop executed this kid. 2. The kid got into a scuffle with the cop, the cop panicked and shot the kid multiple times. Excessive force was used. 3. The kit assaulted the cop, went for his gun, it was fired once, the kid ran away and turned around to surrender and the cop thought there was a weapon in his hand and defended himself. Questionable shooting, but not unreasonable seeing that the kid went for the weapon to begin with. 4. The kid assaulted the cop, the gun went off, the kid ran, and then went for the cop again, the cop felt he was in danger, he fired his weapon multiple times because the kid never stopped charging. 5. The kid was higher than a kite on PCP and thought the cop was Barney the Purple Dinosaur. The kid hated Barney and wanted to kill the cop. If I can just rattle these scenarios off the top of my head and if I spent more time thinking about it I could come up with a few more, why is your explanation the only one that fits? The thing speaks for itself (Res Ipsa Loquitor) is not always the case, especially in a criminal investigation where that doesn't even apply. There is way to much reasonable doubt at this point to say anything either way. If you want to try this guy before the investigation is over, that is your prerogative. I just hope that you are never in a situation where you have killed someone and it really looks like it was homicide, but in reality it was an accident or self-defense, and that everyone around you convicts you before your trial. It is a shitty thing to do to someone that may well be innocent of a crime. Do as you wish, but for my way of thinking, I will wait until the investigation is complete to form an opinion.

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 7:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The officer's behavior is hard to fathom. Stopping someone for jay walking and then firing six shots into the jay walker after an "altercation." It does not add up. See if you can get a ride along in Baltimore or DC it could be life changing.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 7:11:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Yeah. Bullets sometimes pass through, and aren't found in the body. The key bit was that the examiner who did the "autopsy" hadn't even seen the x-rays, Polite. You're not ahead of me, Polite. You're so far behind you are about to get lapped. Not only are you behind me, you cant even read. Baden stated brown had been shot six times. Keep posting bullshit and I will keep pointing it out. The problem is, when you're stating things based on only partial evidence, that's called "guessing". Granted, it's an educated guess in this person's case, but it's still at least partially guess-work. But even if Brown was shot 6 times, so what? Baden also said the the evidence could support that Brown was charging at Wilson when the fatal shot was fired. If he'd been shot 5 times and was still attacking/charging, then a 6th shot was warranted. As far as gun-shot residue and distance, I believe with most pistols the drop off distance for residue is 3', not 6'. So a bullet wound, with no corresponding residue could mean that Brown was as close as 36-38" away. That's certainly close enough to someone that big to still be in danger. Since Baden didn't have Brown's clothes, it's really not possible to say how far apart they were.

TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 8:09:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Yeah. Bullets sometimes pass through, and aren't found in the body. The key bit was that the examiner who did the "autopsy" hadn't even seen the x-rays, Polite. You're not ahead of me, Polite. You're so far behind you are about to get lapped. Not only are you behind me, you cant even read. Baden stated brown had been shot six times. Keep posting bullshit and I will keep pointing it out. Duh, dumbass, but only 3 bullets were recovered in the body - read what you quoted. Bullets sometimes keep going, right out the other side, and are not recovered. Maybe get your information from better sources than the ones who can't tell the difference between earplugs and rubber bullets?

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 8:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge There is a simple problem, you are using a post hoc logical fallacy: because 6 shots were fired then it was homicide. The kid was shot, the cop shot him, it was homicide, is jumping to a conclusion. I can easily explain several ways it could happen. 1. It was, in fact, a homicide and the cop executed this kid. 2. The kid got into a scuffle with the cop, the cop panicked and shot the kid multiple times. Excessive force was used. 3. The kit assaulted the cop, went for his gun, it was fired once, the kid ran away and turned around to surrender and the cop thought there was a weapon in his hand and defended himself. Questionable shooting, but not unreasonable seeing that the kid went for the weapon to begin with. 4. The kid assaulted the cop, the gun went off, the kid ran, and then went for the cop again, the cop felt he was in danger, he fired his weapon multiple times because the kid never stopped charging. 5. The kid was higher than a kite on PCP and thought the cop was Barney the Purple Dinosaur. The kid hated Barney and wanted to kill the cop. If I can just rattle these scenarios off the top of my head and if I spent more time thinking about it I could come up with a few more, why is your explanation the only one that fits? The thing speaks for itself (Res Ipsa Loquitor) is not always the case, especially in a criminal investigation where that doesn't even apply. There is way to much reasonable doubt at this point to say anything either way. If you want to try this guy before the investigation is over, that is your prerogative. I just hope that you are never in a situation where you have killed someone and it really looks like it was homicide, but in reality it was an accident or self-defense, and that everyone around you convicts you before your trial. It is a shitty thing to do to someone that may well be innocent of a crime. Do as you wish, but for my way of thinking, I will wait until the investigation is complete to form an opinion. (1) I don't know the policeman's state of mind. There is little to go on regarding mens rea. (2) It's hard to see the shooting as self defense. The policeman panics, he fires a a shot that hits brown. The policeman is holding the gun. Logic says the victim either tries to escape or surrender. Illogic says he then charges the officer. (3) The officer made a mistake. Would this lead to an excessive force conviction? Hard to see how you can argue he made a reasonable mistake. (4) This would conflict with three eye witness accounts from Johnson, Tiffany Mitchell, and Piaget Crenshaw. (5) See above. This would assume brown charging the officer, I take it. What remains to be seen is if Wilson will have any corroborating witnesses, and what the forensics reports will indicate. ----

TheHeretic -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 8:20:07 PM)
This one is just too fucking funny not to share. The HuffnPoo reporter who got hassled at the McDonalds found spent "rubber bullets" in the street. [image]local://upfiles/409734/32D9FBB642AB435D91B710526C0EA6EB.jpg[/image]

cloudboy -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 8:24:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko It's amazing how color struck some people are in this country, especially considering the diversity here. To be honest, it's bewildering for people who are foreign. YEARS before Obama was elected president (wow, so amazing?), Ireland had a Nigerian mayor. At the end of the day, you are all Americans, this is how the entire world sees you.You're not Irish American or Italian American or African American unless you were actally born in those countries and not here. Trying to paint oneself as better than a counterpart because of dark skin or blue eyes is sort of pointless and the occurrences of race related crimes doesn't pan out to being politically and judicially mature. Sorry if my comments are rude, I just didn't know if you guys were aware of how you LOOK to the rest of the world when things like this make you this riled. They kind of smile and nod and nudge each other while refraining to laugh. I think there should be some introspection in how these issues are handled perhaps. I was struck by this today: >>There we have the familiar narrative: another unarmed black man unjustly killed. Brown thus joins a long, sad list — Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner, etc. — that seems to have no end. This story line is unassailable. Anyone who thinks race is not a factor in these fatal encounters should have to cite examples of unarmed, young, white men being killed by trigger-happy police or self-appointed vigilantes. Names and dates, please.<<

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 8:29:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic This one is just too fucking funny not to share. The HuffnPoo reporter who got hassled at the McDonalds found spent "rubber bullets" in the street. Damn, and here all this time I've been sticking those in my ears!

BamaD -> RE: Rioting is the answer (8/18/2014 8:33:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko It's amazing how color struck some people are in this country, especially considering the diversity here. To be honest, it's bewildering for people who are foreign. YEARS before Obama was elected president (wow, so amazing?), Ireland had a Nigerian mayor. At the end of the day, you are all Americans, this is how the entire world sees you.You're not Irish American or Italian American or African American unless you were actally born in those countries and not here. Trying to paint oneself as better than a counterpart because of dark skin or blue eyes is sort of pointless and the occurrences of race related crimes doesn't pan out to being politically and judicially mature. Sorry if my comments are rude, I just didn't know if you guys were aware of how you LOOK to the rest of the world when things like this make you this riled. They kind of smile and nod and nudge each other while refraining to laugh. I think there should be some introspection in how these issues are handled perhaps. I was struck by this today: >>There we have the familiar narrative: another unarmed black man unjustly killed. Brown thus joins a long, sad list — Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner, etc. — that seems to have no end. This story line is unassailable. Anyone who thinks race is not a factor in these fatal encounters should have to cite examples of unarmed, young, white men being killed by trigger-happy police or self-appointed vigilantes. Names and dates, please.<< Familiar narrative no matter what the facts say it is always about race.

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