quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You posted total bullshit and expected not to be called on it. Don't whine about it now that you were. You're claiming the cop had a major injury when we have video of him walking around receiving no first aid of any kind for several minutes after the shooting and taking no action to indicate he is in any discomfort at all.
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No I didn't
You posted total bullshit and expected not to be called on it. Don't whine about it now that you were. You're claiming the cop had a major injury when we have video of him walking around receiving no first aid of any kind for several minutes after the shooting and taking no action to indicate he is in any discomfort at all.

Ken this is what I said

There is a unverified report that Wilson's eye socket had an "orbital blowout fracture" . If this turns out to be accurate likely was seeing double. This would explain the pattern of the hits, all were way off center. It would also mean that he might very well have only been able to tell Brown was turning on him. As I said this is not yet verified.

If you can read you will see that not once but twice I stated that it was not yet verified. In case you are having your usual problem with English that means that I am stating that I don't know whether it is accurate or not.
I am not whining about being called on BS I am pointing out to you that as always you don't know what you are talking about. Read the above paragraph, which is a copy of my original statement, slowly and maybe the truth will sink in, I doubt it, but maybe.

quote:

Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.
563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Being hit doesn't give the cop the right to shoot. That you think it does is troubling.

No, just being hit wouldn't. Since I never said any such thing, I find it troubling that you think I did.

Now if Brown had hit him hard enough to cause real damage, and tried to take his weapon, and was coming back at the officer when the fatal shot was fired (all of which has been alleged but not proven), that's a very different story. So, as I've said already, if the facts come out supporting Brown, I'll be happy to see Ofc. Wilson put away. I'll even admit that I was wrong, as I've done before. I think it was even to you, Ken. But if the facts exonerate Wilson, are you willing to do the same?

Even if what Wilson claims happened is what happened he was not justified in shooting.

A LEO is only allowed to use deadly force in 3 circumstances.
1) to protect his life.
2) to protect the life of another
3) to stop a dangerous felon from fleeing

If Brown was charging him 2 and 3 do not apply so he has to be claiming 1. But Brown was unarmed and Wilson is a trained LEO with nonlethal weapons at his disposal and he knows backup is on the way, since he called for it and has heard the radio response that it is arriving very soon (less than 2 minutes after the call was made), so his life was not actually threatened. So 1 does not apply either.

So the use of lethal force was not justified. It was murder. I do not expect you to believe that or the pro cop DA to prosecute it but those are the facts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Missouri's Revised Statute detailing LEO use of deadly force. Just for the sake of the discussion

I guess it might come down to whether or not Brown had committed a felony. Not sure where assaulting a police officer falls or strong arm robbery IF Wilson knew at the time Brown was a suspect is considered a felony versus misdemeanor. Since I've heard conflicting reports on the issue of the robbery, it might just be based on the assault.

quote:

Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.
563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Being hit doesn't give the cop the right to shoot. That you think it does is troubling.

No, just being hit wouldn't. Since I never said any such thing, I find it troubling that you think I did.

Now if Brown had hit him hard enough to cause real damage, and tried to take his weapon, and was coming back at the officer when the fatal shot was fired (all of which has been alleged but not proven), that's a very different story. So, as I've said already, if the facts come out supporting Brown, I'll be happy to see Ofc. Wilson put away. I'll even admit that I was wrong, as I've done before. I think it was even to you, Ken. But if the facts exonerate Wilson, are you willing to do the same?

Even if what Wilson claims happened is what happened he was not justified in shooting.

A LEO is only allowed to use deadly force in 3 circumstances.
1) to protect his life.
2) to protect the life of another
3) to stop a dangerous felon from fleeing

If Brown was charging him 2 and 3 do not apply so he has to be claiming 1. But Brown was unarmed and Wilson is a trained LEO with nonlethal weapons at his disposal and he knows backup is on the way, since he called for it and has heard the radio response that it is arriving very soon (less than 2 minutes after the call was made), so his life was not actually threatened. So 1 does not apply either.

So the use of lethal force was not justified. It was murder. I do not expect you to believe that or the pro cop DA to prosecute it but those are the facts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted


I understand the difference between a relatively minor crime and something more serious. What you don't seem to understand is, this wasn't about "jaywalking". It may have started with something relatively minor, but then it escalated. Even ignoring everything else, Brown's buddy admitted that Brown pushed the officer as he tried to exit his vehicle. That's assault. Do Italian police ignore people assaulting them?

You keep saying "jaywalking" which implies someone crossing a street where they shouldn't. That's not really the same thing as someone who's not trying to cross, but is just walking down the center of the street. That may be something else you don't get, maybe people don't do that in Italy, but for some reason it's not all that uncommon here. Groups (usually older kids 16-18ish) just walk down the middle of the street as if they have every right to be there, then get belligerent if you honk at them to stop blocking traffic. Gauge commented on this same thing a few pages back.

As far as people getting violent over stupid things, ask any police officer if it's ever happened to them. I used to work retail, and have been threatened over things that would seem moronic to anyone else. I once had a customer call me a "faggot" and threaten to beat my ass over a $30 game that he wanted to return with no receipt and no box. I eventually had to call the police and have him removed from the store. So I have no problem believing that someone would start a fight over a minor ticket. Especially not if he also had a box of stolen cigars in his pocket at the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And the plot thickens.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft

And why not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maA1FUJqhew (he paid for them, *NB :36


Looks like an epic PR fail somewhere, anyone got an idea?

Nobody seems to be picking up on this. Also I read this today:

"A lawyer for Mr. Johnson said that his client was interviewed by the F.B.I. and the St. Louis County Police last week for nearly four hours. In that interview, Mr. Johnson admitted that he and Mr. Brown had stolen cigarillos from the store, said the lawyer, Freeman R. Bosley Jr."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us/shooting-accounts-differ-as-holder-schedules-visit.html?ref=us&_r=0

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Total bull. There is video of him walking around after killing Brown. he never even touches his face and the other officer who arrives doesn't either. If he had that serious an injury to his face he'd at least touch it or cover his eye.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

meaning that a kid fighting a cop is strange and unbelivable.

eulero

here it is not at all uncommon.
And I said that there is no reasonable correlation between your fathers case and this one.
As for your 3 witnesses one is his accomplice and read my first post in this thread.

I know there was no reasonable correlation I answered to a specific question on a different subject, I'm not relationg the two, I was asked if an italian cop would have given up in front of someone breaking the law and provided an example I'm aware of where it happened over a jaywalking offence.

your first post here is about something happened in a place called selma, in a different time, so I really don't understand what you mean.
About the witnesses... can you discredit the two girls with something different from "they are black"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

There are some people in this world who just don't like to be told what to do, even if they're told by a police officer. Go figure.

In the real world, that's called tough shit.

A lot of things in the real world amount to "tough shit." What's your point?

How about this Zonie. You get home from work tonight to find a large man living in your home. When you confront him, he knocks you around and tells you to fuck off. You call the police. They interview the man, and tell you that he really likes it here and doesn't like to be told what to do. So rather then remove him, they're going to avoid pressuring him or causing any sort of social tension and just let him stay. Would you be OK with this? Or should the police maybe not give a shit if he doesn't like being told what to do, do their jobs, and get him out of your house?

This is not an analogous situation.

I see, so then it's ok if people are told what to do, whether they like it or not, in some situations?

Maybe we can come up with a list of situations where it's ok for someone to be told to do/not do something if it's in the best interests of society. Hmmm, but then we should probably hire people to make sure that list is obeyed. Just off the cuff here, how about we call the list "laws" and the people who's job it is to make sure they're obeyed "police"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Or, maybe we can just train cops not to be assholes on a power trip. Maybe we can remind them that they are public servants and not feudal lords to be obeyed no matter what. Maybe we could change the homespun wisdom of law enforcement which you and others apparently subscribe to. It's not as if any of their bullshit methods actually work to keep society safe, so who's kidding whom here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

meaning that a kid fighting a cop is strange and unbelivable.

eulero

here it is not at all uncommon.
And I said that there is no reasonable correlation between your fathers case and this one.
As for your 3 witnesses one is his accomplice and read my first post in this thread.

I know there was no reasonable correlation I answered to a specific question on a different subject, I'm not relationg the two, I was asked if an italian cop would have given up in front of someone breaking the law and provided an example I'm aware of where it happened over a jaywalking offence.

your first post here is about something happened in a place called selma, in a different time, so I really don't understand what you mean.
About the witnesses... can you discredit the two girls with something different from "they are black"?

Where did he discredit the two girls because they were black?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Or, maybe we can just train cops not to be assholes on a power trip. Maybe we can remind them that they are public servants and not feudal lords to be obeyed no matter what. Maybe we could change the homespun wisdom of law enforcement which you and others apparently subscribe to. It's not as if any of their bullshit methods actually work to keep society safe, so who's kidding whom here?

The majority of them already know all that. It's the ones who don't who make the rest look bad. And because the media primarily focuses on the assholes, those are the only ones you usually hear about. I think it was GoddessManko who posted a link to a story about a cop doing good things but no one wants to talk about those cases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

I do see your point. If there was medical treatment after the fact though, no one except Wilson himself or someone he gives permission to discuss can reveal it though based on HIPPA law. Until that happens, I'm not sure folks can say one way or the other with any degree of certainty if he was or wasn't injured during the struggle.