quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I suspect that Wilson was shocked that jaywalking turned violent.
He most likely went in expecting to talk to them and that would be the end of it. By the time he needed backup it was too late.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I suspect that Wilson was shocked that jaywalking turned violent.
He most likely went in expecting to talk to them and that would be the end of it. By the time he needed backup it was too late.

I was thinking that after I sent it. That because the incident seemed so minor, he probably didn't think he needed backup. There might have been a point, where things were just starting to get heated and words were being exchanged, that it might have been best to just back off and wait for backup, but again it might have seemed like the suspect was just talking tough and would back down once confronted. Very hard to say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I didn't say to ban all unions. That's the sort of distraction technique I expect from the likes of Ken and co. I said ban POLICE unions. Personally, I'd carry that all the way out to all government unions, but that's another thread, and another discussion. They work for the public.

Assuming the review comes up as a clean shooting (or death caused by any other means) they can take their pro-rated pension and a nice reference, but that is the end of them being a cop.

Go watch the video on Lucy's thread, and tell me it's a good idea for those two to get a month off with pay, and be right back out on patrol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Right, you have sympathy for you own causes, namely pouring anonymous money into electoral races while hiding behind 503(c) fronts, but none for an unarmed 18 year old who could have been handled with pepper spray, better policing skills, or some physical savvy.

Racist profiling by POLICE. Check, that's allowed.

IRS profiling. Sorry, that's unacceptable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I didn't say to ban all unions. That's the sort of distraction technique I expect from the likes of Ken and co. I said ban POLICE unions. Personally, I'd carry that all the way out to all government unions, but that's another thread, and another discussion. They work for the public.

Assuming the review comes up as a clean shooting (or death caused by any other means) they can take their pro-rated pension and a nice reference, but that is the end of them being a cop.

Go watch the video on Lucy's thread, and tell me it's a good idea for those two to get a month off with pay, and be right back out on patrol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You've already refused to believe the facts so I know you won't accept them. If Brown had powder burns on the lethal wound then Wilson might have an argument but there isn't so Wilson shot him at a distance so even if you are arguing that he was in danger he shot him before the danger was imminent. So you are full of shit.

The DA has already refused to prosecute other cops who killed unarmed men several times before. He has publicly said he won't ever do so. The guy's entire family are cops and his father was a cop killed in the line of duty. No one sane thinks he is unbiased.

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Doesn't matter. The Supreme Court has laid out when a LEO can use deadly force and if Brown wasn't attempting to escape then Wilson couldn't shoot. It's called the rule of law.

Ken you said he had nothing to fear because he had called for backup.
Do the math 53 man force 24/7 manning there were maybe 8 patrol officers on duty including Wilson, wouldn't expect backup real soon. I suspect the Supreme Court also allows use of force is the officer is being attacked. That too is called the rule of law.

He knew the backup would arrive within seconds. He'd heard the response and acknowledged it. The guy was on scene less than 3 minutes after he called for backup.

We have the radio traffic.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/

And no SCOTUS does not allow a LEO to use lethal force simply because he is being attacked. The only expansion of the usual person's rights to use deadly force, i.e. in defense of their own or another's life, is to stop a fleeing felon. There is no other exception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

That's why if the prosecutor actually follows the law Wilson has to be charged.

You would think that a great expert on law and close combat would know that in this situation Wilson would think his life was in danger, and that 3 min is forever. In that situation there is only now.

I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort.

Let us assume Brown was 10 feet away and charging at 10mph. That's 1 mile every 6 minutes or 5280 ft/360 seconds or a bit of 14 ft/sec. Now, even if Brown were "charging" at 7mph, that is 10ft/sec. So perhaps you'd like to explain how someone closing in on you at the rate gives you a lot of time and other options. Do you suspend the laws of physics?

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ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Gauge

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired.

Please cite a credible source for this statement.

The independent autopsy report.

That says he had no powder burns. As my previous post explains, and I know Ken that you are more than scientifically literate, the physics explains very easily why he could have been in imminent danger when he fired.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort.

========================================
Ken
Why didn't you tell us you were there and saw the whole thing.
I realize that you don't think anyone, least of all a cop, has the right to defend themselves until they are half dead, but get real if Brown was charging him and he waited till Brown got to him it would be too late.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: ChainedByAnkle

In Georgia, a 17 year old white boy was killed by a white female police officer, on February 14th of this year. That's right, this year.

He was at home, answered the door when someone knocked, and as he opened the door, the policeman opened fire, killing him with one bullet wound to the chest. His siblings watched him die.

Blacks misunderstand the police. They're not picking on blacks. All kinds are victims of police overreaction. I doubt the Ferguson case is an overreaction, but the Eurharlee, Georgia case definitely was one.

The white kid is dead. No riots. What a shame.

Notice a major difference, the investigation was done openly and the case went before the grand jury very quickly. They didn't return an indictment, which is likely what will happen here as well. We're a week and a half in a we still do not have the cop's incident report or any of the official documents from the shooting despite the fact that Missouri law requires they be released.

The shooting was in Feb they just decided not to charge him. That is 6 months. And you are whining about less than two weeks.
When was the last time white people rioted over something like this?
Being the expert on everything I am sure you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Your link has nothing to do with mine... I've already said blacks should be pulled over more in suspicious situations because they commit MORE CRIME a lot more... But Ferguson black to white pull over rate is lower than the state and the US average.. that is a fact.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
No. He was not. Brown was not in arms reach when he was shot. The lack of gunpowder residue proves that. Wilson fired long before he had to even if Brown was actually attacking him and shouldn't have fired at him at all once he turned back. He should have subued him using non lethal techniques as called for by law.

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The absence of gunpowder on Mr Brown's body indicated that the muzzle of the gun could have been as close as a foot or two away, or up to 30 feet away, he added.

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ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

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ORIGINAL: Gauge

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired.

Please cite a credible source for this statement.

He can't, because it doesn't exist. As I've already pointed out, drop-off for pistol residue is around 3 feet. So Brown could have been as close as 37" and still not gotten any residue around the wound. He keeps saying "the independent autopsy report", but amazingly enough, it says no such thing. As a matter of fact, that very report states that Brown could have been charging head down when he received the fatal wound. But Ken, if I'm wrong, please show us where exactly the report states that the officer was in absolutely no danger. Or are you the one who's full of shit now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. He was not. Brown was not in arms reach when he was shot. The lack of gunpowder residue proves that. Wilson fired long before he had to even if Brown was actually attacking him and shouldn't have fired at him at all once he turned back. He should have subued him using non lethal techniques as called for by law.

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ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Just a couple ideas to toss out for discussion:

Ban police unions.

Any officer who kills someone in the line of duty is done being a police officer. Automatic desk duty until the case is closed, then off the job permanently.

People would have to be pretty stupid to go into a field where if they ever had to do a recognized part of their job, they'd be out of work. Like it or not, sometimes the police have to shot someone. Maybe one day there will be non-lethal solutions that work perfectly every time. If that happens, I'll sure as hell carry one instead of a conventional gun, but such a thing just doesn't exist.

I think that police should always work in tandem, an officer alone is just at too much risk, and should be trained to employ non-lethal means to subdue suspects whenever possible. But I don't think it's fair to automatically penalize an officer if they have to use lethal force.

As far as unions go, I'm torn. I think unions were needed at one point, but now they seem to have way too much power. The problem is, if you do away with them, will things drift too far back the other way? I think they probably would.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I know that time had passed since he called for backup and he was dealing with an unarmed person. He had options besides killing him. He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired. He committed murder. Taking a life should always be the last not the first resort.

========================================
Ken
Why didn't you tell us you were there and saw the whole thing.
I realize that you don't think anyone, least of all a cop, has the right to defend themselves until they are half dead, but get real if Brown was charging him and he waited till Brown got to him it would be too late.

As always you think self defense means you get a little nervous and you can kill someone. That is not what it means. The standard is that you have to have a reasonable fear that your life is in imminent danger and being bull rushed by an unarmed teen ager doesn't qualify, if that is even what happened.

Being in a fistfight never gives you the right to kill the other party.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainedByAnkle

In Georgia, a 17 year old white boy was killed by a white female police officer, on February 14th of this year. That's right, this year.

He was at home, answered the door when someone knocked, and as he opened the door, the policeman opened fire, killing him with one bullet wound to the chest. His siblings watched him die.

Blacks misunderstand the police. They're not picking on blacks. All kinds are victims of police overreaction. I doubt the Ferguson case is an overreaction, but the Eurharlee, Georgia case definitely was one.

The white kid is dead. No riots. What a shame.

Notice a major difference, the investigation was done openly and the case went before the grand jury very quickly. They didn't return an indictment, which is likely what will happen here as well. We're a week and a half in a we still do not have the cop's incident report or any of the official documents from the shooting despite the fact that Missouri law requires they be released.

The shooting was in Feb they just decided not to charge him. That is 6 months. And you are whining about less than two weeks.
When was the last time white people rioted over something like this?
Being the expert on everything I am sure you know.

The incident report was out within days and the entire thing was handled publicly without the stink of a coverup. The officer's name was released quickly etc.

Compare to this.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He shot Brown at such a distance that the fatal wound had no powder residue so he was in imminent danger when he fired.

Please cite a credible source for this statement.

He can't, because it doesn't exist. As I've already pointed out, drop-off for pistol residue is around 3 feet. So Brown could have been as close as 37" and still not gotten any residue around the wound. He keeps saying "the independent autopsy report", but amazingly enough, it says no such thing. As a matter of fact, that very report states that Brown could have been charging head down when he received the fatal wound. But Ken, if I'm wrong, please show us where exactly the report states that the officer was in absolutely no danger. Or are you the one who's full of shit now?

Gunshot residue from a 9 mm can be deposited up to 5 feet away and 3 feet is beyond arms reach so yes that does mean the officer shot before he was in physical danger. Anyway we also have the videos of the scene that show the location of the body and the officers car that show that Brown was quite a distance away from the police vehicle when he was killed. The witnesses all say Wilson got out and simply shot at Brown so the location of the vehicle is a good approximation for his location when he was firing and it is more like 20 feet from Brown.