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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 2:10:01 PM   
GoddessManko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And NONE of that counters what I've told you nor supports what you have claimed.

Read it. NONE of it supports your arguments.


Except for the fact that what I highlight shows that Friedman himself was a proponent of inflation despite his one sentence in a span of decades of his life. He is best known for Keynes vs Friedman as any student of economics is very well aware.
Your quote:
quote:

"Inflation is always a monetary phenomenon" is the central tenet of Friedman's work. You can disagree with him if you like, but it's still his position. And it's why his economic philosophy is called Monetarism.


REALITY:
quote:

During the 1960s, he promoted an alternative macroeconomic policy known as "monetarism". He theorized there existed a "natural" rate of unemployment and argued that governments could increase employment above this rate, e.g., by increasing aggregate demand, only at the risk of causing inflation to accelerate.


Your assertion is as unrealistic as saying Einstein claimed conventional education methods limited the thought process and creativity of an individual, which is one single sentence that is in no way applicable to his entire life and the fact he was a PROFESSOR AT PRINCETON. Also I highlighted what Friedman's economic theory was which is not remotely in the realm of what you asserted so case in point but it was your call to pointlessly argue semantics with someone who knows this stuff fairly well. But it's not my job to translate plain English to you if you choose to remain in utter denial.

quote:

In other words trying to understand this problem is like trying to wrap your head around global warming.


Global warming isn't that hard to understand, increased CO2 in the atmosphere (at its highest rate in 655,000 years, 97% of climatologists agree it is man made so not even worth debating) increases the production of methane at our hydrothermal vents and tectonic plate activity (which also has an effect on the earth's magnetic field but that's another story).
The methane gas released then traps heat in the atmosphere which creates a "greenhouse effect", this heat moves upward to the poles causing a melting of the polar ice caps...causing cold fronts to move southward. The mix of extreme heat (trapped in atmosphere which normally would be released beyond the ionosphere) combined with the cold fronts from the polar ice caps explains the increase in extreme weather.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 2:56:43 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Why are so few people wealthy?

Well first, wealth is pretty common. 2 million more people become millionaires in 2013, and there are nearly 14 million millionaires globally, 4 million of them in the US.

And what is "wealthy"? I think a lot of posters here would feel wealthy without 1 million if they had annual incomes of $100,000 -- and 20% of Americans do. Or even $75,000. And the average US income is $51,000.

But second, it's because people tend to think in terms of dollars per hour, which severely limits their income ceilings, rather than focusing on ideas and service and how to leverage those to create a strong market for their market segment. The Puritan work ethic says "if you didn't sweat, you didn't earn it." So we toil over producing crafts, rather than leverage our talents.

I had someone complain once that his friend wanted to make beautiful hand-carved cutting boards, but he couldn't make a living at it, so doing what you love and earning money was, in his mind, bullshit. I gave this problem to my business class yesterday. After all, how many cutting boards can you make, and at what price? Without turning to mass-production, which wasn't an option in this case, what could he do? What about teaching a class in how to carve these boards? What could he get for that reasonably? I have a friend who collects old barn wood and turns it into high end one of a kind furniture pieces that he sells in Manhattan for thousands each. Could high end art boards sell? For what? How many could he do? How many could he sell -- not many, perhaps, but one a month? And he could still make a few regular boards a week for sale. They came up with a very doable $87,500/year for this guy -- couple boards a week, one high end board a month, a six week once-night-a-week class every two months.

They could have gone further -- record a class and he'd have a DVD he could sell on the Internet -- Say, $30, and with decent marketing -- a Google Ad and a web site, maybe just the videos instead of DVD product -- sold another ... what? 10 a week? 100? 1000? Even ten is an extra $15,000 a year, and he doesn't have to do anything more for it.

He could let his students sell their boards in his store or on his site for a commission -- another income stream, and they don't need to set up separate marketing. He could speak on finding and sharing your life's passion -- another marketing opportunity and income stream. He could write a book about his experiences -- especially good for marketing, and another income stream.

He could partner with other intriguing craftspeople too, for even more opportunities.

But if he does what most people do, he'll live a bitter life, just scraping by, complaining no one appreciates his talents, and that their just aren't good jobs for wood carvers. Or that the economy sucks. Or that government is strangling businesses. Or that big corporations are greedy and unethical. Whine whine whine whine.

That's why.


What you speak of here is entirely correct and more so than ever because market barriers used to be advertising costs when now we have the web in addition to the networking and local leveraging.

People too often though, think of it all as happening in a few days or weeks when a friend of mine created pool (8 ball) leagues (TAP) The Association of Pool. once organized provided him enough income to help his wife support them. His competition was APA (Budweiser) BCA (Billiard Congress of America) which doesn't market nearly enough and I think he saw that and the need and exploited how pool had overtaken bowling as family pastime and recreation.

Well now it is almost world-wide, (franchised) is grossing millions per year and he has often said to people...it took him 8 years just to get it off the ground.

Most things take time, effort, patience and getting out there and spreading the word and of course...advertising.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 2:57:19 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

If you are making $100,000 USD a year, you are among the poor.


Depends upon where you are earning that figure and what the housing costs are. After taxes, 100,000.00 gets chopped down quite bit by taxes and retirement contributions. Let's say you are left with $65,000.00. That's $5,416.00 a month.

In my area you can expect to pay:

$2,000.00 a month on garden variety housing (this means nothing fancy.)
$400.00 a month car loan (and we are not talking a luxury car)
$250.00 Phone/Internet/Wireless
$300.00 Gas and Electric
$110.00 Car insurance
$400.00 Groceries & eating lunch out at work
$120.00 Gasoline
$400.00 Misc. (house-car repairs, unforeseen expenses)

No kids are added to the equation. No spouse, either.

Sub Total: $4,080.00

Rich Guy's Discretionary income: $1,336.00
(In this scenario, too: he mows his own lawn, cleans his own house.)

My definition of "rich" person would be someone making $250,000.00 a year in a secure job.

This person can live in a more expensive house, drive a luxury car, support children, and then still have discretionary income, along with money to either pay for private schools, University Education, and a maid.

After all that, even -- he looks more upper-middle class than he does "rich."




< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/29/2014 3:00:35 PM >

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 3:04:24 PM   
cloudboy


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Contrast the above income scenarios with a worker making 2x the US minimum wage: his salary is $30,160.00 or $2,513.33 a month.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 3:12:58 PM   
cloudboy


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One reason there a fewer wealthy people is the shortage of people making a living wage -- who are therefore unable to buy goods and services to keep economic demand up.

MIT has created a living wage calculator. All the figures are well above the FED minimum wage.

Check it out to review the figures for where you live:

http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/24510

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 3:46:17 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Quite simply, however you want to measure it, "wealthy" means to be much better off than those around you.
It is a subjective and relative term and not measured by absolutes.
By definition, being "wealthy" will always be in the minority.


If you are earning $100 an hour and everyone else is only earning $12 an hour, you'd be considered 'wealthy'.
But, if most around you are earning $100 an hour, you aren't much different than most of those around you. Thus, you wouldn't be considered 'wealthy'.

You can't put an absolute figure on it because it is always relative to your surroundings.


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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 5:58:19 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Contrast the above income scenarios with a worker making 2x the US minimum wage: his salary is $30,160.00 or $2,513.33 a month.

Actually I know for a fact that with 1 exemption, in the No. Va. area (top 3 in cost-of-living) where I spent all but that last 24 months of my adult life, if you made $100,000/yr you took home $60,000 or $5,000/mo. If single guy can't do what he wants on that...he's fucked up.

A very close relative and her husband took a combined $12,000/mo home and had two houses, two daughters and 3 vehicles. They lived quite nicely and now the daughters are out on their own.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 8:11:15 PM   
BenevolentM


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How global warming relates to wealth and poverty

Why? Because everything is interconnected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

Global warming isn't that hard to understand, increased CO2 in the atmosphere (at its highest rate in 655,000 years, 97% of climatologists agree it is man made so not even worth debating) increases the production of methane at our hydrothermal vents and tectonic plate activity (which also has an effect on the earth's magnetic field but that's another story).
The methane gas released then traps heat in the atmosphere which creates a "greenhouse effect", this heat moves upward to the poles causing a melting of the polar ice caps...causing cold fronts to move southward. The mix of extreme heat (trapped in atmosphere which normally would be released beyond the ionosphere) combined with the cold fronts from the polar ice caps explains the increase in extreme weather.


Admittedly your understanding of the problem is superior with respect to the many childish explanations I have encountered, but it is apparent that you have not looked at the problem critically. If you are predisposed to doubt, you would find a thorny bush. No one, for example, has proposed a satisfactory climate model that enables anyone to test the theory. It is a theory that is not capable of making predictions which is something the theory needs to be able to do in order to test it. The theory is qualitative, not quantative, which isn't all that scientific. We encounter the same sort of problems in economics. Though progress in a fundamental way suppresses the capacity of a society to produce goods and services efficiently, it also boosts it which makes it confusing. It renders qualitative analysis, that is opinion presented with argument professional or otherwise, somewhat pointless. There is a lot we still do not understand and many problems require a quantum computer to resolve.

Given what I have written about prosperity, no wonder that the Chinese are skeptical of whether or not global warming is real.

< Message edited by BenevolentM -- 8/29/2014 8:17:17 PM >

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 8:39:41 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Quite simply, however you want to measure it, "wealthy" means to be much better off than those around you.
It is a subjective and relative term and not measured by absolutes.
By definition, being "wealthy" will always be in the minority.


If you are earning $100 an hour and everyone else is only earning $12 an hour, you'd be considered 'wealthy'.
But, if most around you are earning $100 an hour, you aren't much different than most of those around you. Thus, you wouldn't be considered 'wealthy'.

You can't put an absolute figure on it because it is always relative to your surroundings.


This is and is not true. The amount of carbon dioxide and other waste products produced by the activities of mankind is measurable and finite and there is a clear relationship between the amount of waste produced by a society and the degree in which that society is wealthy in absolute terms. The more wealthy the society the more waste it will produce and the more resources it will consume. It isn't relativistic. A pound of horse dung is a pound of horse dung.

Recall what astronomers have cooked up as a classification system for civilizations. It is based on the capacity of a civilization to utilize energy. If you need the output of a star, your use of that energy will likewise likely be extraordinarily wasteful. Consider how much energy would be needed to create a hypothetical worm hole created just to get you from point A to point B. In economic terms it may not be the most energy efficient way to travel unless perhaps you are going clear across the universe.

So in the future one could imagine using the sun as a waste dump, the biggest in the solar system. A highly advanced civilization may need trash dumps the size of planets. I recall a sci-fi film with such a theme, Universal Soldier? Maybe I got the title wrong. It had something to do with enhanced soldiers.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 8:54:51 PM   
BenevolentM


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As you can see from what I wrote economics is not a be all and end all. Though worm holes may not be an energy efficient means to get from point A to point B, it would be awfully convenient.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 8:56:55 PM   
BenevolentM


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The preferred way to travel for the future trillionaires of the universe.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 9:26:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And NONE of that counters what I've told you nor supports what you have claimed.

Read it. NONE of it supports your arguments.


Except for the fact that what I highlight shows that Friedman himself was a proponent of inflation despite his one sentence in a span of decades of his life. He is best known for Keynes vs Friedman as any student of economics is very well aware. Except for the fact? It's not an issue in dispute. And I myself told you he's not a fan of Keynes. But that doesn't make him a supply sider -- and I've already cited him attacking it.
Your quote:
quote:

"Inflation is always a monetary phenomenon" is the central tenet of Friedman's work. You can disagree with him if you like, but it's still his position. And it's why his economic philosophy is called Monetarism.


REALITY:
quote:

During the 1960s, he promoted an alternative macroeconomic policy known as "monetarism". He theorized there existed a "natural" rate of unemployment and argued that governments could increase employment above this rate, e.g., by increasing aggregate demand, only at the risk of causing inflation to accelerate.

Reality -- yup. He did that. And that quote is not some isolated instance--it's the most famous thing he said. And your own link earlier includes it.

Your assertion is as unrealistic as saying Einstein claimed conventional education methods limited the thought process and creativity of an individual, which is one single sentence that is in no way applicable to his entire life and the fact he was a PROFESSOR AT PRINCETON. Also I highlighted what Friedman's economic theory was which is not remotely in the realm of what you asserted so case in point but it was your call to pointlessly argue semantics with someone who knows this stuff fairly well. But it's not my job to translate plain English to you if you choose to remain in utter denial.
It's not my assertion -- it's the core of Friedman's work. If you think he's unrealistic, take it up with him. It's not "semantics," but simply reality. You're certainly not "someone who knows this stuff fairly well" -- you're clueless. And your "translations" aren't even on the same topic. Talk about denial! Geez.

quote:

In other words trying to understand this problem is like trying to wrap your head around global warming.


Global warming isn't that hard to understand, increased CO2 in the atmosphere (at its highest rate in 655,000 years, 97% of climatologists agree it is man made so not even worth debating) increases the production of methane at our hydrothermal vents and tectonic plate activity (which also has an effect on the earth's magnetic field but that's another story).
The methane gas released then traps heat in the atmosphere which creates a "greenhouse effect", this heat moves upward to the poles causing a melting of the polar ice caps...causing cold fronts to move southward. The mix of extreme heat (trapped in atmosphere which normally would be released beyond the ionosphere) combined with the cold fronts from the polar ice caps explains the increase in extreme weather.

None of this global warming stuff is mine. I can't imagine why you're quoting it as such.

They certainly don't make goddesses like they used to. Must be common core.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/29/2014 10:41:40 PM   
BenevolentM


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Availability of cheap energy is important. Personally, I believe that a space based solar array maybe the way to go, but we need a space program to do that. Maybe the Russians or Chinese maybe willing. Would it be cheaper to mine the materials we need to build the array on the moon? It seems to me that we need a mining and a manufacturing facility on the moon. It doesn't take much to achieve escape velocity on the moon. I wonder if a space elevator from the moon to lunar orbit would be feasible with modern materials. Any billionaires out there willing to fund it?

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 1:44:39 AM   
BenevolentM


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Oops posted this to the wrong thread.

< Message edited by BenevolentM -- 8/30/2014 1:45:29 AM >

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 5:17:09 AM   
smileforme50


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I don't think most people are even looking to BE "wealthy". Most people I know actually don't WANT to be wealthy. They just want to be "comfortable" and not have to worry about paying their rent next month.

On one hand, I can understand how people don't agree with paying fast food workers $15 an hour. Hell....if they're going to start paying fast food workers $15 an hour, then I'm going to get a job in fast food! But at the same time, I see firsthand every day at my job people who work full time and make less than $10 an hour....and I think it's disgusting that people should be expected to be able to meet their basic needs on less than $10 an hour.

I make "just" over $15 an hour. My rent takes up almost an entire paycheck....and I don't live in the best neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination. (As a matter of fact...my family freaked out when I told them where I was moving). The only reason I have a car is because my mother passed away recently and I "inherited" hers. This car is 14 years old and once it dies....unless something changes.....I'm going to be back to riding the bus. Fortunately, having the car, may allow me to finally make some changes. Without the car, I was in a vicious circle I was never going to get out of unless I hit the lottery.

So I look at my paycheck, and my situation....and then I look at some of the other employees around me who make even less than I do and I can't even imagine how they get by....and some of them do it with children in tow.

The thing that drives me crazy, is that other people look at people who work in minimum wage jobs and throw their nose in the air and blame the people for being "lazy". But they don't understand that is VERY RARELY the case. Not everyone is gifted with some special talent or super intelligence. Not everybody has the ability to give them the potential to run their own business successfully. Some people have physical and mental disabilities that make things extremely difficult for them. Sure....there are exceptions and there are a few people who manage to get past a disability and excel to a point beyond what even the average healthy person does. But that is a rare case, and just because they don't learn how to get past their disabilities doesn't mean that they are lazy or they haven't tried. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that they "deserve" to live in poverty.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 5:48:34 AM   
Musicmystery


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Your first paragraph is dead on. It's not that it's some impossible mountain, but that most people aren't interested in climbing it.

The rest of your musings circle around the first issue I raised -- people think in terms of dollars per hour via labor employment and not in terms of income streams and marketable skills. When I was a teen, when you couldn't get jobs, you mowed lawns, painted houses, and so forth. You essentially started a small business.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 8:39:15 AM   
TheHeretic


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FR

Wealthy by what measure? Compare my typical street of working/middle class homes and families to a typical street anywhere else in the world, and we are all freaking millionaires.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 2:34:05 PM   
BenevolentM


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Ah, this must be why the idea of a space based solar array has stalled.

quote:

http://www.academia.edu/1561057/Feasibility_of_Wireless_Power_Transmission

Far-field techniques can be achieved through microwave power transmission and LASER power transmission. However, the efficiency is low as of now ...


I still see it a problem involving a lack of commitment though. If we can go to the moon, we can solve this problem.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 4:03:04 PM   
smileforme50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Your first paragraph is dead on. It's not that it's some impossible mountain, but that most people aren't interested in climbing it.

The rest of your musings circle around the first issue I raised -- people think in terms of dollars per hour via labor employment and not in terms of income streams and marketable skills. When I was a teen, when you couldn't get jobs, you mowed lawns, painted houses, and so forth. You essentially started a small business.


I think timed have changed drastically from when you and I were teens. Hell when I was a teen, a girl could make good picket cash babysitting and boys had paper routes. Nowadays, people don't hire babysitters.....they take their kids out to dinner with them, and now newspapers are delivered or sold only by adults.

But just because someone isn't interested in climbing Mt Everest to become a millionaire doesn't mean they shouldn't be making a livable wage because they (metaphorically) climb the Matterhorn. My problem is that people work their asses off and still aren't financially secure.....and it shouldn't be that way. It certainly does nothing to discourage people from taking public assistance instead.


_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

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RE: Why are so few people wealthy? - 8/30/2014 11:57:53 PM   
hlen5


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One definition of wealth -

http://www.richdad.com/Resources/Rich-Dad-Financial-Education-Blog/May-2013/the-definition-of-wealth.aspx

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