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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/6/2014 12:25:50 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No, dumbass. You don't know what outlier means.

When you have 13 data points and 10 cluster in a group and 3 are way outside that group then all 3 are outliers and suspect. It doesn't make the 3 right no matter how much you wish it were so.

So what you are saying then is that since the overwhelming majority of legally owned guns will never be involved in any sort of criminal effort, the incidents where they are so used are outliers, and must be suspect in the generalizations about the whole.

Thank you for such refreshing (if completely unintentional) honesty.

Dumbass, indeed.

I've never made any such claim dumbass. Please return to reality.

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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/6/2014 1:48:48 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When you have 13 data points and 10 cluster in a group and 3 are way outside that group then all 3 are outliers and suspect. It doesn't make the 3 right no matter how much you wish it were so.

You're just making shit up again. DGU estimates were available for 11 of the previous studies, not all 13, and those 11 estimates do not cluster in a group. Don't you have any toys to play with?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/6/2014 2:04:03 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

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Post #: 42

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/6/2014 2:10:24 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It's also common sense that you have to be 100 times more careful, cautious, and paranoid with a gun in the house than you do without one. This changes somewhat if you live alone and don't have guests over.

No that is the thinking of someone like my former mother in law who thought a gun sitting in a drawer could go off by it's self.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Post #: 43

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 2:35:21 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It's also common sense that you have to be 100 times more careful, cautious, and paranoid with a gun in the house than you do without one. This changes somewhat if you live alone and don't have guests over.

No that is the thinking of someone like my former mother in law who thought a gun sitting in a drawer could go off by it's self.

My! Some one actually objects to the statement that one has to be more careful with a gun in the house than without one. I'm still trying to think of a single possible reason why sane person would object to this statement, which reads like perfect common sense.

Gee BamaD! Nothing personal but with an attitude like yours I'm glad we aren't neighbours.

Objections like this make it easy to understand why many regard the pro-gun mania exhibited by some on these threads as similar to the insane rants of members of a deranged cult.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/7/2014 2:41:41 AM >

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Post #: 44

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 5:26:18 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When you have 13 data points and 10 cluster in a group and 3 are way outside that group then all 3 are outliers and suspect. It doesn't make the 3 right no matter how much you wish it were so.

You're just making shit up again. DGU estimates were available for 11 of the previous studies, not all 13, and those 11 estimates do not cluster in a group. Don't you have any toys to play with?

You're the idiot who said you posted 13 studies. I took your word for it. so it was 11 with 3 outliers. They remain outliers.

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Post #: 45

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 7:01:33 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why wouldn't locking them in a safe make you safer, not more vulnerable?

You're deliberately distorting his point, agree or not.

In fact, it's the gun people who keep telling me they stress, teach and preach safety safety safety.

It was the 100 times thing that sounds so silly like as if no one knows if you have kids around to take precautions. It's a good thing cloudboy was here to give us all such great advice To say 100 times more paranoid is absurd.

"100x" is a tongue and cheek characterization. But the basic fact is: a gun owner has to always worry about the gun in his house and the ammunition. Who has access to the gun? Is there a chance it could be misused? When should you get the gun if you feel fearful? This calculus gets even more complicated with children around, inter-spousal tensions, crazy-argumentative friends-extended family members, drugs and alcohol, etc. That's the finding of the NEJM research, but it totally comports with common sense.

The gun in the house is also a constant worry, whereas being threatened is a random occurance that may or may not occur over the course of years. So, securing the gun is probably #1 safety issue for gun owners. As I see it, its just simpler to not own one. It also guarantees no misuse of one. Misuse (in terms of homicides) is more the norm than actual "my life's in danger" self defense.

The only time I would buy a gun is if I actually needed it (a Cape Fear scenario.) I might consider one if I lived way out in the country.

Zimmerman, Wilson, and this guy -- all would have been better off unarmed.......

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/7/2014 7:08:57 AM >

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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 7:16:34 AM

ExiledTyrant

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Have you ever wondered what it must be like from the criminals perspective, I mean that defining oh shit moment when the dobermans have you stretched out in the living room, the annoying little beep beep beep as the homeowner punches in the safe code... He or she pours a scotch, neat of course, sits in the overstuffed chair and calmly loads the .45 as the dobermans take new purchase on your flailing limbs. Homeowner slides one in the chamber, picks up the phone:

Operator: 911, what's your emergency?
Perpetrator (thinking): thank god he/she is calling the police.
Homeowner: i just killed an intruder.
St. Peter: bet you won't pull that shit again, will ya?

_____________________________

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To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

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Post #: 47

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 7:46:15 AM

HendLVDom

Posts: 5
Joined: 9/2/2014
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This in no was "In fear for his life". If he was so scared, why did he even open the door? He had a shotgun, he was well armed in someone broke in through the door, or anywhere for that matter. So why didn't he call the cops and wait? He seen a chance to kill someone, and he took it. That's all there is to it.

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Post #: 48

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 8:08:12 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why wouldn't locking them in a safe make you safer, not more vulnerable?

You're deliberately distorting his point, agree or not.

In fact, it's the gun people who keep telling me they stress, teach and preach safety safety safety.

It was the 100 times thing that sounds so silly like as if no one knows if you have kids around to take precautions. It's a good thing cloudboy was here to give us all such great advice To say 100 times more paranoid is absurd.

"100x" is a tongue and cheek characterization. But the basic fact is: a gun owner has to always worry about the gun in his house and the ammunition. Who has access to the gun? Is there a chance it could be misused? When should you get the gun if you feel fearful? This calculus gets even more complicated with children around, inter-spousal tensions, crazy-argumentative friends-extended family members, drugs and alcohol, etc. That's the finding of the NEJM research, but it totally comports with common sense.

The gun in the house is also a constant worry, whereas being threatened is a random occurance that may or may not occur over the course of years. So, securing the gun is probably #1 safety issue for gun owners. As I see it, its just simpler to not own one. It also guarantees no misuse of one. Misuse (in terms of homicides) is more the norm than actual "my life's in danger" self defense.

The only time I would buy a gun is if I actually needed it (a Cape Fear scenario.) I might consider one if I lived way out in the country.

Zimmerman, Wilson, and this guy -- all would have been better off unarmed.......

I get the tongue and cheek but it's still silly like we don't already know these things. Once you bring a kid into the home there are a whole bunch of things you need to pay attention to. A gun is just one more thing added to a long list.

A gun in the house is not a constant worry. It only takes once to figure out where to safely put your stuff and or lock it up. If yer worrying about it all the time yer gunna have a heart attack.

I also disagree with your notion that it's complicated. It's actually quite simple. The problems with guns in the home are, by and large, products of dysfunctional people. You will find that drugs and or alcohol are contributing factors in the overwhelming majority of guns in the home problems. 80 million or so people don't seem to have these problems. Maybe you need to try posting your advice in the "Dysfunctional Family Forum".

And I'm not so sure Zimmerman would have been better off without his gun, Trayvon certainly would have.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 10:13:47 AM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It's also common sense that you have to be 100 times more careful, cautious, and paranoid with a gun in the house than you do without one. This changes somewhat if you live alone and don't have guests over.

No that is the thinking of someone like my former mother in law who thought a gun sitting in a drawer could go off by it's self.

My! Some one actually objects to the statement that one has to be more careful with a gun in the house than without one. I'm still trying to think of a single possible reason why sane person would object to this statement, which reads like perfect common sense.

Gee BamaD! Nothing personal but with an attitude like yours I'm glad we aren't neighbours.

Objections like this make it easy to understand why many regard the pro-gun mania exhibited by some on these threads as similar to the insane rants of members of a deranged cult.

No I do not object to the idea that you have to be careful with firearms.
I do not object to the idea that you have to be careful with a gas stove in the house.
I do not object to the idea that you have to be careful with poisons in the house.
You need to use all appropriate safety measures with all these things.
There does not exist 100 times as careful as I am with these other things.
I do object to the idea that you have to be 100 times as paranoid and 100 times as careful with a gun in the house, cloudboy is already 100 times and paranoid as I am and has no guns.
Had you actually paid attention to what I was responding to you would see that it was cloudboy and not me engaging in an insane rant.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 10:19:38 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HendLVDom

This in no was "In fear for his life". If he was so scared, why did he even open the door? He had a shotgun, he was well armed in someone broke in through the door, or anywhere for that matter. So why didn't he call the cops and wait? He seen a chance to kill someone, and he took it. That's all there is to it.

The anti gunners have pulled this far enough off topic that you would not know that the pro gun people on here all started off saying they agreed with the verdict. I even stated that the was no reasonable fear here and that he had no defense. Don't try to twist this into anyone defending the shooter, no one has.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 11:52:43 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It's also common sense that you have to be 100 times more careful, cautious, and paranoid with a gun in the house than you do without one. This changes somewhat if you live alone and don't have guests over.

No that is the thinking of someone like my former mother in law who thought a gun sitting in a drawer could go off by it's self.

My! Some one actually objects to the statement that one has to be more careful with a gun in the house than without one. I'm still trying to think of a single possible reason why sane person would object to this statement, which reads like perfect common sense.

Gee BamaD! Nothing personal but with an attitude like yours I'm glad we aren't neighbours.

Objections like this make it easy to understand why many regard the pro-gun mania exhibited by some on these threads as similar to the insane rants of members of a deranged cult.

Come on now tweak you are too smart to take anything cloud says at face value aren't you?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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Post #: 52

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 12:55:23 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When you have 13 data points and 10 cluster in a group and 3 are way outside that group then all 3 are outliers and suspect. It doesn't make the 3 right no matter how much you wish it were so.

You're just making shit up again. DGU estimates were available for 11 of the previous studies, not all 13, and those 11 estimates do not cluster in a group. Don't you have any toys to play with?

You're the idiot who said you posted 13 studies. I took your word for it. so it was 11 with 3 outliers. They remain outliers.

In addition to your many other unpleasant qualities, you're a dishonest little prick. You claimed the citation consisted of a single phone survey. You made that up. Kleck and Gertz presented and reviewed the findings of 13 different studies. Now you're claiming that I said 13 estimates were obtained. You're making that up, too. And you're making up the claim that the findings clustered, except for (variously) first one "outlier," then three.

Now look, I realize that you're a competitive sort of guy. But you've already won two Golden Shovel awards and an Asshole merit badge. Why don't you take a break and give somebody else a chance at the winner's circle?

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

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Post #: 53

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 1:01:29 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When you have 13 data points and 10 cluster in a group and 3 are way outside that group then all 3 are outliers and suspect. It doesn't make the 3 right no matter how much you wish it were so.

You're just making shit up again. DGU estimates were available for 11 of the previous studies, not all 13, and those 11 estimates do not cluster in a group. Don't you have any toys to play with?

You're the idiot who said you posted 13 studies. I took your word for it. so it was 11 with 3 outliers. They remain outliers.

In addition to your many other unpleasant qualities, you're a dishonest little prick. You claimed the citation consisted of a single phone survey. You made that up. Kleck and Gertz presented and reviewed the findings of 13 different studies. Now you're claiming that I said 13 estimates were obtained. You're making that up, too. And you're making up the claim that the findings clustered, except for (variously) first one "outlier," then three.

Now look, I realize that you're a competitive sort of guy. But you've already won two Golden Shovel awards and an Asshole merit badge. Why don't you take a break and give somebody else a chance at the winner's circle?

K.

You are referring to just this thread aren't you cause he has several gold clusters on both overall. I hear they are going to change the Golden Shovel award and name it after him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Post #: 54

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 2:07:23 PM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It's also common sense that you have to be 100 times more careful, cautious, and paranoid with a gun in the house than you do without one. This changes somewhat if you live alone and don't have guests over.

No that is the thinking of someone like my former mother in law who thought a gun sitting in a drawer could go off by it's self.

My! Some one actually objects to the statement that one has to be more careful with a gun in the house than without one. I'm still trying to think of a single possible reason why sane person would object to this statement, which reads like perfect common sense.

Gee BamaD! Nothing personal but with an attitude like yours I'm glad we aren't neighbours.

Objections like this make it easy to understand why many regard the pro-gun mania exhibited by some on these threads as similar to the insane rants of members of a deranged cult.

No one is objecting to the common sense contained in cloudboys statement. It is after all, common sense. We object to being talked down to like we don't have the brains God gave a piss ant by someone who knows very little about the subject of firearms.

There is no gun mania exhibited on these threads. The excessive bantering is mostly coming from the anti gun posters. We simply disagree with most of the anti gun, anti 2nd Amendment crap you guys are beltching and we find all of it stupid and some of it quite objectionable.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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Post #: 55

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 2:20:49 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It's also common sense that you have to be 100 times more careful, cautious, and paranoid with a gun in the house than you do without one. This changes somewhat if you live alone and don't have guests over.

No that is the thinking of someone like my former mother in law who thought a gun sitting in a drawer could go off by it's self.

My! Some one actually objects to the statement that one has to be more careful with a gun in the house than without one. I'm still trying to think of a single possible reason why sane person would object to this statement, which reads like perfect common sense.

Gee BamaD! Nothing personal but with an attitude like yours I'm glad we aren't neighbours.

Objections like this make it easy to understand why many regard the pro-gun mania exhibited by some on these threads as similar to the insane rants of members of a deranged cult.

No one is objecting to the common sense contained in cloudboys statement. It is after all, common sense. We object to being talked down to like we don't have the brains God gave a piss ant by someone who knows very little about the subject of firearms.

There is no gun mania exhibited on these threads. The excessive bantering is mostly coming from the anti gun posters. We simply disagree with most of the anti gun, anti 2nd Amendment crap you guys are beltching and we find all of it stupid and some of it quite objectionable.

And it has nothing to do with the justice of this verdict (nobody is saying it is unjust)
it is just an attempt to use this tragedy as an excuse for his insane anti gun rants.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

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Post #: 56

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 2:22:30 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why wouldn't locking them in a safe make you safer, not more vulnerable?

You're deliberately distorting his point, agree or not.

In fact, it's the gun people who keep telling me they stress, teach and preach safety safety safety.

It was the 100 times thing that sounds so silly like as if no one knows if you have kids around to take precautions. It's a good thing cloudboy was here to give us all such great advice To say 100 times more paranoid is absurd.

"100x" is a tongue and cheek characterization. But the basic fact is: a gun owner has to always worry about the gun in his house and the ammunition. Who has access to the gun? Is there a chance it could be misused? When should you get the gun if you feel fearful? This calculus gets even more complicated with children around, inter-spousal tensions, crazy-argumentative friends-extended family members, drugs and alcohol, etc. That's the finding of the NEJM research, but it totally comports with common sense.

The gun in the house is also a constant worry, whereas being threatened is a random occurance that may or may not occur over the course of years. So, securing the gun is probably #1 safety issue for gun owners. As I see it, its just simpler to not own one. It also guarantees no misuse of one. Misuse (in terms of homicides) is more the norm than actual "my life's in danger" self defense.

The only time I would buy a gun is if I actually needed it (a Cape Fear scenario.) I might consider one if I lived way out in the country.

Zimmerman, Wilson, and this guy -- all would have been better off unarmed.......

I am glad you don't have a gun, your unrealistic view of them would make you a menace.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Profile

Post #: 57

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 4:55:23 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When you have 13 data points and 10 cluster in a group and 3 are way outside that group then all 3 are outliers and suspect. It doesn't make the 3 right no matter how much you wish it were so.

You're just making shit up again. DGU estimates were available for 11 of the previous studies, not all 13, and those 11 estimates do not cluster in a group. Don't you have any toys to play with?

You're the idiot who said you posted 13 studies. I took your word for it. so it was 11 with 3 outliers. They remain outliers.

In addition to your many other unpleasant qualities, you're a dishonest little prick. You claimed the citation consisted of a single phone survey. You made that up. Kleck and Gertz presented and reviewed the findings of 13 different studies. Now you're claiming that I said 13 estimates were obtained. You're making that up, too. And you're making up the claim that the findings clustered, except for (variously) first one "outlier," then three.

Now look, I realize that you're a competitive sort of guy. But you've already won two Golden Shovel awards and an Asshole merit badge. Why don't you take a break and give somebody else a chance at the winner's circle?

K.

Actually dumbass, Kleck and Gertz did one phone survey. They did compare their terrible phone survey to other studies but their study was a phone survey and it was an outlier in that if found many more gun uses than other more reliable studies.

How many they compared their survey to I don't care. You claimed it was 13 so I took your word for it. then you claimed 11 so I'll take your word for it and accept that you lied in the previous post.

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Post #: 58

RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 9:06:18 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

They did compare their terrible phone survey to other studies but...

You're making shit up again. I realize that slander is your automatic response when anything disagrees with you. But in reality, Kleck and Gertz is by every recognized standard a very well done piece of work (not that you would know anyway). Even Cook, Ludwig, and Hemmingway, who believe that the finding represents a "mythical number," acknowledge the quality of the study.

What distinguishes this remarkable statistic is the entirely respectable source and estimation method... the DGU estimate was calculated by researchers affiliated with a major research university... using widely accepted methods and published in a topflight, peer-reviewed criminology journal... our estimate, based on the NSPOF, is in the same ballpark as that propounded by Kleck and Gertz... Kleck and Gertz's DGU estimates do not appear to be artifacts of any particular computational or weighting decisions made in their analysis. If there is a problem here, it is intrinsic to the method. ~Source

This might be a good time for you to give some consideration to the First Law of Holes.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/7/2014 9:21:33 PM >

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RE: Justice for the family of Reneisha McBride - 9/7/2014 10:33:19 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How many they compared their survey to I don't care. You claimed it was 13 so I took your word for it. then you claimed 11 so I'll take your word for it and accept that you lied in the previous post.

You can't have taken my word for things I didn't say. But more interestingly, I uploaded the tables as attachments to the link I posted. You just never even bothered to look at them, running your mouth and making shit up instead. That's what makes you a clown act. If you don't like it, take off the suit.

K.

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