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is money speech? - 9/9/2014 4:04:52 AM   
DomKen


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Or is it a fundamentally corrupting influence on our politics. We have a chance to control it if we force our legislators to pass this constitutional amendment.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/senate-passes-constitutional-amendment-citizens-united

Text of the proposed amendment:
http://www.tomudall.senate.gov/files/documents/Legislation/UdallAmendmentCampaignFinance.pdf
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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 4:33:10 AM   
servantforuse


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This amendment will not and should not pass. It would make it very difficult, if not impossible to get an incumbent voted out of office. The democrats must be very worried to even bring something like this up.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 5:11:43 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This amendment will not and should not pass. It would make it very difficult, if not impossible to get an incumbent voted out of office. The democrats must be very worried to even bring something like this up.

Incumbents were voted out quite frequently when there were campaign spending limits. Why would you think returning to that would change anything?

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 5:17:02 AM   
servantforuse


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Only the wealthy will have the money to run against an incumbent.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 5:33:48 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
Only the wealthy will have the money to run against an incumbent.


Only the wealthy have the money to run for office right now, thanks to conditions! How many of the people in Congress were blue collar workers becoming coming to Congress? How many of them had an actual day job paying less then $120K/year? How many of those individuals were elected not through good character and the will of the common people; but through less stellar means?

The last two Presidential elections have shown us one thing in particular; unless you have a billion dollars to spend, don't bother running for the White House! Because that's pretty much what a third party candidate is up against.

If we were to really hold people seriously when they say "I will balance the budget and reduce costs", shouldn't that start on their road to election? That they can not spend more than $176K? Because that's how much they earn for one year on the job. Would you take someone serious whom spends ten times that? Why would a business or individual spend money on an investment that only nets 1/10th 'The return on investment'? Unless of course the reason they are spending so high on the hog, is for their ego.

Just like there are limits on each of the amendments, the 1st is no different. Money takes, but LOTS of money, drawn out all opposition. It doesn't serve liberty that only a tiny fraction of citizens can run for public office. Since that tiny fraction in the 18th century with money to burn was called 'the nobles' or 'the elite'.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 6:24:15 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Only the wealthy will have the money to run against an incumbent.

Try to understand. The amendment would allow actual campaign finance reform.

We could cap campaign spending. We could regulate how incumbents fund raise as well. We could even finally institute public financing of campaigns and allow people who aren't wealthy to get into politics.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 7:30:24 AM   
cloudboy


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My answer is NO.

Wealth already equates to power, so when you give it "free speech" status too, you end up with disproportionately powerful.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 3:38:12 PM   
Marc2b


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The idea behind the amendment is noble but the amendment itself is scary in its implications.

If I am reading the proposed amendment correctly, there is nothing in it to prevent the incumbents from allowing themselves large amounts while restricting the opposition to a piddling amount - thus inviting either party to lock itself in as a permanent majority. In order to work the amendment MUST have a provision mandating that the amounts allowed be equal for incumbent and challengers.

While the amendment specifically protects freedom of the press I think it should also do the same for freedom of speech.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 4:04:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

The idea behind the amendment is noble but the amendment itself is scary in its implications.

If I am reading the proposed amendment correctly, there is nothing in it to prevent the incumbents from allowing themselves large amounts while restricting the opposition to a piddling amount - thus inviting either party to lock itself in as a permanent majority. In order to work the amendment MUST have a provision mandating that the amounts allowed be equal for incumbent and challengers.

While the amendment specifically protects freedom of the press I think it should also do the same for freedom of speech.

Do you really think such a provision would survive court challenges much less the court of public approval? Do try and stay in reality.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 4:19:13 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Do you really think such a provision would survive court challenges much less the court of public approval? Do try and stay in reality.


What makes you think it would survive without it? While I don't doubt that each party would salivate at the thought of permanently locking the other party out of power, will they really want to take a chance that they may be the ones to lose out? And what is unrealistic about expecting such fairness? Does not the proposed amendment say - TWICE - that it's purpose is to "To advance the fundamental principle of political equality for all, and to protect the integrity of the legislative and electoral processes . . . " How can that possibly be accomplished if one party is allowed to allocated one hundred million to the incumbent and only ten thousand (if they are feeling generous) to the challenger? Can you imagine the propaganda power of only one party airing political advertising?

I don't really see what is unrealistic about expecting such protection from one party rule. With such a provision I would be inclined to support such an amendment. Without it I will be opposed.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 5:34:03 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Do you really think such a provision would survive court challenges much less the court of public approval? Do try and stay in reality.


What makes you think it would survive without it? While I don't doubt that each party would salivate at the thought of permanently locking the other party out of power, will they really want to take a chance that they may be the ones to lose out? And what is unrealistic about expecting such fairness? Does not the proposed amendment say - TWICE - that it's purpose is to "To advance the fundamental principle of political equality for all, and to protect the integrity of the legislative and electoral processes . . . " How can that possibly be accomplished if one party is allowed to allocated one hundred million to the incumbent and only ten thousand (if they are feeling generous) to the challenger? Can you imagine the propaganda power of only one party airing political advertising?

I don't really see what is unrealistic about expecting such protection from one party rule. With such a provision I would be inclined to support such an amendment. Without it I will be opposed.

You just wrote it. The amendment says it already.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 6:04:53 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You just wrote it. The amendment says it already.


Where does it say it? I'm reading from the link you provided and it says:

"Congress shall
5 have power to regulate the raising and spending of money
6 and in-kind equivalents with respect to Federal elections,
7 including through setting limits on—
8 ‘‘(1) the amount of contributions to candidates
9 for nomination for election to, or for election to,
10 Federal office; and
11 ‘‘(2) the amount of funds that may be spent by,
12 in support of, or in opposition to such candidates."


Nowhere in there does it say that congress can't give ten million to incumbent Ricky Republican and only ten thousand to challenger Danny Democrat in one election and then turn around and give ten thousand to incumbent Donna Democrat and ten million to challenger Roger Republican in another election. Sure, the amendment makes a big deal about how all this is to "advance the fundamental principle of political equality for all, and to protect the integrity of the legislative and electoral processes . . . " but it doesn't actually mandate it. By not mandating it, it allow the very opposite to become enshrined in the Constitution.

This amendment, as is, is a sure fire road to one party rule. I don't care which party that would be because when it comes to power corrupting, I don't trust the Democrats any more than I trust the Republicans.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 9/9/2014 6:54:36 PM >


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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 7:00:55 PM   
TheHeretic


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This is the path to tyranny. ANY American of ANY stripe who would be suckered into supporting this assault on freedom should have their right to vote stripped at best, and the ones who love the idea should be taken out behind the chemical sheds and shot as a better option. I'll volunteer for duty on the latter, if needed.

Clear enough?



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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 7:04:05 PM   
Musicmystery


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Well, now we know what the November talking points will be about.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 7:19:06 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, now we know what the November talking points will be about.



Ammunition prices?

The Totalitarian State and Incumbent Protection Amendment would hardly occupy a single cycle though.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 7:58:41 PM   
Musicmystery


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...and we know that you have chosen to be obtuse about it.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 7:59:23 PM   
Sanity


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FR -

Yeah. Thats what we need, even more biased government goons attacking free speech

quote:



Sen. Cruz Questions IRS About Decision To Audit Breitbart News


September 9, 2014

WASHINGTON, DC - U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, today sent the following letter to the Internal Revenue Service regarding its decision to audit Breitbart News Network, LLC.

The full text of the letter is available here.

Dear Commissioner Koskinen:

I write to express deep concern over the recent announcement by Breitbart News that the Internal Revenue Service recently notified the Breitbart News Network, LLC that it would be subject to a far-reaching, burdensome, and open-ended audit.

As you know, the Breitbart News Network LLC is a conservative-leaning press outlet. It has editors and reporters who cover daily political news and regularly breaks stories that are critical of the Obama Administration's policies. To conduct this audit, Breitbart News Network, LLC was asked to provide the IRS with all of its organizational documents, financial records, W-2s, W-4s, 1099s, and K-1s filed, personal income tax returns for each member of the company, payroll tax forms, information regarding properties and assets acquired by the company, bank statements, and array of other records documenting revenues, expenses, and depreciation costs.

This media audit, coupled with the recent proposal of 49 Senate Democrats to amend the Constitution to give Congress plenary power to regulate political speech, paints a disturbing picture of a coordinated assault on the First Amendment.

In another time, under another Administration, the decision to audit a conservative news organization might not have risen to a worrisome level of concern. However, given the IRS's disturbing track record of illegally targeting conservative organizations-including the IRS recently paying a $50,000 settlement for having wrongfully leaked a conservative group's confidential tax information-and the persistent refusal by the current Department of Justice to meaningfully investigate or prosecute those crimes, the decision to audit Breitbart News Network, LLC appears highly questionable.

For the IRS to behave like a partisan political organization, targeting media organizations whose views differ from the President's, would represent a gross abuse of power. It would undermine the statutory mission and integrity of the IRS. And it would likely subject IRS employees to criminal prosecution.

I very much hope that is not the case.

I would therefore like to ask you the following questions:

How many other news organizations have been audited since President Obama has been in office?
How many of them could be identified as conservative- or liberal-leaning?
Have any other news organization been subjected to this sort of far-reaching and oppressive inquiry, including requesting the personal tax records of editors and reporters?
At what point does the IRS decide to take action to audit a news outlet?
Does the IRS worry that its extremely burdensome auditing process could effectively silence the press?
Previously, Senator Durbin wrote the IRS asking that it examine the tax-exempt status of Crossroads GPS, a Republican organization that spends money electing Republicans. Did the IRS ever receive any communications from any elected official asking it to examine Breitbart News Network, LLC?
Who, precisely, is responsible for making the decision to audit Breitbart News Network, LLC?

I appreciate your timely response.

Sincerely,
Ted Cruz
United States Senator










< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/9/2014 8:00:55 PM >


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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 8:02:41 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas

This media audit, coupled with the recent proposal of 49 Senate Democrats to amend the Constitution to give Congress plenary power to regulate political speech, paints a disturbing picture of a coordinated assault on the First Amendment.

And the talking points language is crafted.

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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 8:14:34 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas

This media audit, coupled with the recent proposal of 49 Senate Democrats to amend the Constitution to give Congress plenary power to regulate political speech, paints a disturbing picture of a coordinated assault on the First Amendment.

And the talking points language is crafted.


The IRS is forever tainted with the smell of political hackery

From the Associated Press:

IRS says it has lost emails from 5 more employees




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RE: is money speech? - 9/9/2014 8:15:14 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

This is the path to tyranny. ANY American of ANY stripe who would be suckered into supporting this assault on freedom should have their right to vote stripped at best, and the ones who love the idea should be taken out behind the chemical sheds and shot as a better option. I'll volunteer for duty on the latter, if needed.

Clear enough?


Yeah . . . uhm . . . in the V scenario I actually come down on V's side, including his pro-hosing Natalie Portman views . I have to draw the line however, at shooting people behind the chemical shed (kind of dangerous if you think about it). I do, however, understand the impulse to deal forcibly some kinds of people. It comes with being human.

Which is why that amendment, as is, scares the shit out of me. Sure you could interpret it to mean everyone gets an equal amount, but it is far from unambiguous. Too much ambiguity to trust to human nature. I like the idea of equalizing both the money and airtime of all candidates but before it becomes an amendment it needs to be unambiguously stated as such. If Igor Incumbent gets X amount of dollars and Y amount of commercial time then so does Charlie Challenger.

The only problem I can see with this is the certainty of every Tom, Dick and Harry with at least three drunken friends who hand on his every word will claim candidate status, which could make the whole process hugely expensive and unwieldy but this can be solved by restricting eligible candidacy to those who gather a petition for their candidacy of say twenty or twenty-five percent of their would be constituency. In this internet age I don't think this would be too much of a burden on even the poor, especially if the government is required to maintain the official website for petitions. You just sign up and if you get the right number of signatories in the right amount of time, you get the cash and airtime. The process would have to be open of course and there would have to be appropriate penalties for misrepresentation or misallocation of funds.

With these and perhaps a few other safeguards I think an amendment equalizing elections would work (of course, the thought that it would work scares the shit out of some people). Without them I believe that this amendment will sweep away the last remnants of the old Republic.

Cue the music.

ETA: Ya know, I think I have a real talent for run on sentences.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 9/9/2014 8:22:48 PM >


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