RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead

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PeonForHer -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/23/2014 2:33:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin well he never said the USA was set up to do that, he said doing it was good and its own reward... sort of like its not my JOB to help my neighbor when he is stuck in the snow, but it is the neighborly thing to do I think you make QUITE AN INTERESTING POINT there BitYakin. It goes THE idea that FOREIGN policy needn't be entirely self serving.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/24/2014 7:40:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri All the while, this isn't our fight, and there isn't any authority we can rest on to act. It is our fight. Protecting innocent civilians and preventing the spread of the cancer that is ISIS is good in its own right, and is its own reward. That's not true at all. The United States of America was not set up to protect innocent civilians of other countries, in other countries. Nor was it set up to prevent the spread of "cancers" in foreign countries. well he never said the USA was set up to do that, he said doing it was good and its own reward... sort of like its not my JOB to help my neighbor when he is stuck in the snow, but it is the neighborly thing to do You sorta missed the "It is our fight" comment first. That states that it is the US's job to take care of the rest of the world. The problem we run into is when what we think is "good," isn't always agreed with by those who we think we're helping.

crazyml -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 1:08:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin well he never said the USA was set up to do that, he said doing it was good and its own reward... sort of like its not my JOB to help my neighbor when he is stuck in the snow, but it is the neighborly thing to do I think you make QUITE AN INTERESTING POINT there BitYakin. It goes THE idea that FOREIGN policy needn't be entirely self serving. I am not sure it's a very good idea, mind you. The prisoner's dilemma is out on that one. The only right way to conduct Foreign policy is to act in your own interests. The tricky bit is how you define "your own interests" and over what time scale. Most people would agree that a peaceful middle-east, and the preventing (or slowing) of Islamic fundamentalism is in the long term interests of most Western Democracies. The gnarly bit comes when you try to figure out how to achieve that.

BitYakin -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 2:38:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri All the while, this isn't our fight, and there isn't any authority we can rest on to act. It is our fight. Protecting innocent civilians and preventing the spread of the cancer that is ISIS is good in its own right, and is its own reward. That's not true at all. The United States of America was not set up to protect innocent civilians of other countries, in other countries. Nor was it set up to prevent the spread of "cancers" in foreign countries. well he never said the USA was set up to do that, he said doing it was good and its own reward... sort of like its not my JOB to help my neighbor when he is stuck in the snow, but it is the neighborly thing to do You sorta missed the "It is our fight" comment first. That states that it is the US's job to take care of the rest of the world. The problem we run into is when what we think is "good," isn't always agreed with by those who we think we're helping. didn't miss it at all... I also didn't miss that the responder said we weren't "SET UP" which I took to mean part of the original US mission goal, AKA it wasn't what the founding fathers had in mind... but that's ok I'll respond to it as you seem to have taken it... lets change the analogy a little, its not my JOB, to protect my neighbors from robbers and murders and rapists, but its STILL the RIGHT and CORRECT thing to do... also lets look at it from this perspective, if I see someone breaking into my neighbors house and do/say nothing, tomorrow it just might be MY HOUSE, that kind of makes it MY FIGHT. not sure where you stand on Obamacare, I seem to think you were against it... but a lot of people are for it on the premise of preventative medicine is a good thing. well why wouldn't we want to treat ISIS like a cancer and try to treat it BEFORE it reaches our major organs. and I am sorry it seems to be a VERY AGRESSIVE cancer, and may take some extreme treatments...

cloudboy -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 3:23:00 AM)
Likening war to medicine -- or Western intervention in the Middle East to "preventative care" -- really does ignore history. History has seen all Jihadist movements, of which there have been several, collapse under their own dysfunction. Our first go around at Preemptive war begot chaos, sectarian hatreds, massive refugee populations, and an explosion of terrorism in the region. Why is it Republicans are all about self sufficiency here at home, but big-brother, military interventions abroad? I am concerned that US efforts in the region will simply beget yet another group of "terrorists." That might be nirvana for you, netting you another reason for endless war.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 3:26:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin didn't miss it at all... I also didn't miss that the responder said we weren't "SET UP" which I took to mean part of the original US mission goal, AKA it wasn't what the founding fathers had in mind... but that's ok I'll respond to it as you seem to have taken it... Since I was the one that stated it, I'll let you know that you are correct in that what you're stumping for wasn't written into the US Constitution as an Authority the Federal Government was granted. Since we are a nation of laws, and government is supposed to only act where it has been granted authority by the People and the States (as opposed to doing whatever it wants unless the People and States stop them), there has to be some authorization before we act in a foreign nation. quote: quote: lets change the analogy a little, its not my JOB, to protect my neighbors from robbers and murders and rapists, but its STILL the RIGHT and CORRECT thing to do... also lets look at it from this perspective, if I see someone breaking into my neighbors house and do/say nothing, tomorrow it just might be MY HOUSE, that kind of makes it MY FIGHT. Your analogy does not really apply. Do you have the right to damage your neighbor's property to stop the robbers, murderers and rapists? You can help your neighbor. You can even enter into a pact with your neighbor to band together to protect each other. The only thing is, all authorities come from the individual and are granted to government. You have all the authority you need to make choices for yourself. The US Government has to have some sort of granted authority from US Citizens to do what it does. quote: not sure where you stand on Obamacare, I seem to think you were against it... but a lot of people are for it on the premise of preventative medicine is a good thing. well why wouldn't we want to treat ISIS like a cancer and try to treat it BEFORE it reaches our major organs. and I am sorry it seems to be a VERY AGRESSIVE cancer, and may take some extreme treatments... Thank God we have Obamacare! Now, we can practice preventive medicine rather than reactive medicine! Too bad we couldn't do that before Obamacare. [8\|] What you are advocating is allowing the US Government to act in any way it wants so long as it can rationalize it. Should we bomb China because at some point in time, their economic might might damage our economy and wreck our way of life?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 3:30:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Likening war to medicine -- or Western intervention in the Middle East to "preventative care" -- really does ignore history. History has seen all Jihadist movements, of which there have been several, collapse under their own dysfunction. Our first go around at Preemptive war begot chaos, sectarian hatreds, massive refugee populations, and an explosion of terrorism in the region. Why is it Republicans are all about self sufficiency here at home, but big-brother, military interventions abroad? I am concerned that US efforts in the region will simply beget yet another group of "terrorists." That might be nirvana for you, netting you another reason for endless war. [sm=jaw.gif] HOLY SHIT!! Are you and I actually in agreement on something?!?!? Global cooling must have reached Hell... [:D]

cloudboy -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 7:40:24 AM)
The US should be a reluctant warrior as should US citizens. Did our meddling in IRAN lead to Western Style democracy and freedoms? Thomas Friedman points out that by requiring the locals to gather the ground forces -- maybe the competing, warring, unable-to-get-along factions will learn how to compromise, get along, and live together. I also don't get the sense that your political cues come from AM radio and Fox News. They've been fanning this issue with both hands, and it's why Sanity and theHeretic are so worked up.

BamaD -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 10:36:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The US should be a reluctant warrior as should US citizens. Did our meddling in IRAN lead to Western Style democracy and freedoms? Thomas Friedman points out that by requiring the locals to gather the ground forces -- maybe the competing, warring, unable-to-get-along factions will learn how to compromise, get along, and live together. I also don't get the sense that your political cues come from AM radio and Fox News. They've been fanning this issue with both hands, and it's why Sanity and theHeretic are so worked up. You are quoting Friedman on a point I made several pages ago.

mnottertail -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 10:49:32 AM)
Friedmans viewpoint is doubtful. I will point out Mao, and Chang Kai-Shek during the war, which gave the Maosters a great deal of access, training and arms. War over, fight back on. That has happened a great deal in the middle east, they may band together to defeat this vision, but it will be back to tribes after. At least you know who claims to care for their countries. But that is all.

cloudboy -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/25/2014 11:02:39 AM)
He [Friedman] has been a pretty good read on this subject --- and understands why the US didn't rush back in to bail Maliki and his cronies out. Friendman was in for the IRAQ war, so his opinion merits skepticism.

thompsonx -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/26/2014 12:47:33 PM)
ORIGINAL: Sanity It is our fight. Says the punkassmotherfucker who wont join up and risk his own ass. Protecting innocent civilians and preventing the spread of the cancer that is ISIS is good in its own right, and is its own reward. Perhaps the right wing asshole might be willing to tell us just where the constitution authorizes that sort of moronic behaviour.

thompsonx -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/26/2014 12:53:01 PM)
ORIGINAL: BitYakin well he never said the USA was set up to do that, he said doing it was good and its own reward... But clearly not authorized by the constitution. Why would a right wing asshole want to start a war that was not sanctioned by the constitution???only a traitor who hates amerika. sort of like its not my JOB to help my neighbor when he is stuck in the snow, but it is the neighborly thing to do If the only reason you helped your neighbor who was stuck in the snow was so he would get his ass to work so you could fuck his wife would that be neighborly also?[8\|]

thompsonx -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/26/2014 12:54:13 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD I have stated repeatedly that the Kurds would have to be first choice. But let's face it, even Assad is less dangerous than ISIS. This is because faux says so?[8\|]Some one obviously had a big bowl of stupid for breakfast.

thompsonx -> RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead (9/26/2014 1:06:12 PM)
ORIGINAL: BitYakin didn't miss it at all... What you seem to have missed is the u.s. constitution. I also didn't miss that the responder said we weren't "SET UP" which I took to mean part of the original US mission goal, AKA it wasn't what the founding fathers had in mind... but that's ok I'll respond to it as you seem to have taken it... lets change the analogy a little, its not my JOB, to protect my neighbors from robbers and murders and rapists, but its STILL the RIGHT and CORRECT thing to do... Since you live in missouri I would guess if your neighbor was white you might call the cops. If not then, knowing what a civic minded individual you are??? also lets look at it from this perspective, if I see someone breaking into my neighbors house and do/say nothing, tomorrow it just might be MY HOUSE, that kind of makes it MY FIGHT. It becomes your fight when they attack you and not before. not sure where you stand on Obamacare, I seem to think you were against it... but a lot of people are for it on the premise of preventative medicine is a good thing. well why wouldn't we want to treat ISIS like a cancer and try to treat it BEFORE it reaches our major organs. Just where did they get the blue water navy to protect all of the transport ships that they would come here in? You sound like henny penny. You know the little chicken. and I am sorry it seems to be a VERY AGRESSIVE cancer, and may take some extreme treatments... That would be your and faux news spin on something that is none of our business. Have you gone down and enlisted or are you too cowardly to put your ass where your mouth would put someone not you?

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