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RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 8:15:53 AM   
smileforme50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

And I have to ask.....What could a dominant know about a submissive that the submissive doesn't already know about him/herself?



Forgive me if this has already been said. I haven't read the entire thread.

Self perception. How you perceive yourself compared to how people really do perceive you. I know plenty of bitchy people. I'm sure they don't think of themselves as bitchy but that's how other people see them.


See...and this is exactly why I don't agree with the idea of someone else thinking they know something about me that I don't know already. I do know I am bitchy and I fully admit it. (Read my response to BecomingV....bitchy all the way and I admit it.)


< Message edited by smileforme50 -- 9/14/2014 8:16:40 AM >

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 8:49:33 AM   
AKinkCounselor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I seriously wouldn't consider myself a "control freak", but I will admit that this is one reason I don't think someone can know something about me that I don't already know....because I have control over what I want them to know. But that's not really my question. My issue isn't with letting someone know me. My question about this is the idea of someone knowing something about myself that I don't already know. My assertion is that this is information that moves in ONE DIRECTION. It's like a natural progression of nature. Before a tree becomes a tree, it starts out as a seed and then a sapling. It doesn't go from sapling back down to seed. By the same token, I know something about myself and then I show it to others (If I so choose). Someone thinking they know something about me that I don't know is comparable to going backwards and in this case it doesn't happen.



Ok, I'll give this a go...

I understand what you're saying about people only knowing what you tell them, but that makes the assumption that there is only ever a single communication channel between people. That people will always take you absolutely by your word, and they will never try to deduce additional meanings from what is said.

The problem with that is, there is a lot of non-verbal communication, there are a lot of things that we don't have control over when we speak. From our physical, visual cues, to the subtleties of the words we use.

Personally I've never been very conscious of visual cues, I don't pick up on how people move, or sit or whatever else, its not my thing. What is my thing is the words people use. The comfort levels that they have with what they say.

So imagine you were having a conversation about something irrelevant, your morning drive to work maybe, you would simply tell the story, you wouldn't consider the words you used you'd just say 'yeah I was driving to work and some eejit nearly drove into me'

I've just had a quick scan through your profile, just so I can say something vaguely relevant here (I'm not going to try to deduce anything about you from what it says!) How do you imagine your tone, inflection, hesitation, sentence and conversation structure would change when you start talking about something more personal.

So someone is talking to you about the line that can be drawn from your family's demands for your independence to your current desire to hand over complete control to somebody. Do you think an astute person wouldn't be able to get a feel for where you are feeling particularly stressed in that conversation? and for that person to draw connections between those points of stress.

That those points of stress couldn't be parts of your personality, desires, needs that you aren't fully aware of, just bumps in your psyche that can be picked up on, and explored further.

My point is simply, that you give out a lot more information than you believe you do. We all do, because for the most part people don't pay attention to it, but for those who understand what it means, and how it applies can very quickly reach conclusions about someone that they really didn't know were there.

Its not about time travel, its simply information leakage.

< Message edited by AKinkCounselor -- 9/14/2014 8:52:16 AM >

_____________________________

While in the real world I give advice, this is not that.

These are my opinions (and half thoughts) opinions that I have worked hard to form. They are mine. You shouldn't trust them, you should get your own.

(in reply to smileforme50)
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RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 9:21:22 AM   
smileforme50


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From: DelaWHERE(?)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AKinkCounselor


Ok, I'll give this a go...

.....
I've just had a quick scan through your profile, just so I can say something vaguely relevant here (I'm not going to try to deduce anything about you from what it says!) How do you imagine your tone, inflection, hesitation, sentence and conversation structure would change when you start talking about something more personal.

So someone is talking to you about the line that can be drawn from your family's demands for your independence to your current desire to hand over complete control to somebody. Do you think an astute person wouldn't be able to get a feel for where you are feeling particularly stressed in that conversation? and for that person to draw connections between those points of stress.

That those points of stress couldn't be parts of your personality, desires, needs that you aren't fully aware of, just bumps in your psyche that can be picked up on, and explored further.

My point is simply, that you give out a lot more information than you believe you do. We all do, because for the most part people don't pay attention to it, but for those who understand what it means, and how it applies can very quickly reach conclusions about someone that they really didn't know were there.

Its not about time travel, its simply information leakage.


What I am saying is that I AM already aware of those "points of stress"....I mean...if I wasn't aware of them, would I have been able to articulate them in my profile? I'm saying that I am aware that they are part of my personality, approach and view of D/s and these relationships, and I freely admit it in my profile so that people who read it know what they might be getting into. As I mention in my profile, I have spent MANY years looking at myself introspectively and wrestling with those "points of stress". After so many years, there really isn't anything else for someone else to discover that I don't already know about.

Yes...someone else may be "aware" that I have points of stress that could be part of my personality, desires and needs, I don't hide it....but I also already know that.....and that other person isn't going to find out anything more specific about those points of stress before I do. I just don't think it works that way unless someone is totally unaware of their own thoughts, feelings, needs and personality. I may not be the sharpest tack in the box, but I'm not *that* unaware of myself.

Even if I am "leaking out" any information....it's not going to be anything that I don't already know or would surprise me.

ETA....Ok....I will confess to one thing here. One thing I did say in my profile (and I'm surprised you didn't mention this) is:

"If you would have asked me back then, I would have said that there was no way in hell I was ever going to be someone's slave. "

So...Yes....IF someone would have ever told me way back when that they thought I would someday actually want to explore the possibility of being a slave, I would have told them that they were full of it. However...nobody ever made any such assertion to me. I have had a LOT more people tell that I would make a good Domme.

So....someday if I ever go to the other side of the slash and become a Domme I will let you know. Until then....

< Message edited by smileforme50 -- 9/14/2014 9:54:02 AM >

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to AKinkCounselor)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 9:47:25 AM   
AKinkCounselor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

Even if I am "leaking out" any information....it's not going to be anything that I don't already know or would surprise me.


It might not be something that will surprise you, it might simply be someone connecting a series of dots that you hadn't previously realised were connected. It could just be someone passing on thoughts about how it might fit into your personality.

You end your profile saying that you're not sure what it means (twice), that you're not sure if you're a 'true slave' that you're going to try to relax and learn some more about it.

I am curious to understand where that learning will come from? will it all come from self reflection? Do you completely refute the idea that somebody might come along - who has experience of these things - and say 'well maybe it means something like *this*' and that something might be a thing you've not thought of before, that that thing might be a new idea to you. I am genuinely confused about why you think there is nothing anybody could ever tell you about you and your desires in these things. Or are you *SO* unique that nobody has ever come across anyone who's thoughts work in any way that might be comparable to yours?

Why is the idea of someone being able to apply their knowledge of this way of life, to your situation so preposterous?

< Message edited by AKinkCounselor -- 9/14/2014 9:49:11 AM >

_____________________________

While in the real world I give advice, this is not that.

These are my opinions (and half thoughts) opinions that I have worked hard to form. They are mine. You shouldn't trust them, you should get your own.

(in reply to smileforme50)
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RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 10:17:01 AM   
smileforme50


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From: DelaWHERE(?)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AKinkCounselor

quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

Even if I am "leaking out" any information....it's not going to be anything that I don't already know or would surprise me.


It might not be something that will surprise you, it might simply be someone connecting a series of dots that you hadn't previously realised were connected. It could just be someone passing on thoughts about how it might fit into your personality.

You end your profile saying that you're not sure what it means (twice), that you're not sure if you're a 'true slave' that you're going to try to relax and learn some more about it.

I am curious to understand where that learning will come from? will it all come from self reflection? Do you completely refute the idea that somebody might come along - who has experience of these things - and say 'well maybe it means something like *this*' and that something might be a thing you've not thought of before, that that thing might be a new idea to you. I am genuinely confused about why you think there is nothing anybody could ever tell you about you and your desires in these things. Or are you *SO* unique that nobody has ever come across anyone who's thoughts work in any way that might be comparable to yours?

Why is the idea of someone being able to apply their knowledge of this way of life, to your situation so preposterous?


Please read the ETA to my previous post.

True....I admit I'm not sure "exactly" where I stand when it comes to being a sub or a slave. And yes....it's going to take further introspection and some experience, and yes....I won't be able to have those necessary experiences without someone else's help. But he is not going to know the answers to any of this until I reach the conclusions myself FIRST...and then I will TELL him. I understand the idea of reading body language and such cues.....but I do NOT believe in mind-reading.

And someone saying "maybe it means something like this" isn't him having any special insight or knowing anything about me that I don't already know. It's simply him throwing out hypotheses. I do that all the time...."maybe it's this" "maybe it's that". That's really not all that difficult to do and it definitely isn't him knowing anything about me that I don't already know myself. It's just him grasping at straws.

"I am genuinely confused about why you think there is nothing anybody could ever tell you about you and your desires in these things. Or are you *SO* unique that nobody has ever come across anyone who's thoughts work in any way that might be comparable to yours? "

Because what you're talking about is just guess work. It's like a psychic....they throw a bunch of shit (predictions) on the wall and then they see how much of it sticks. No....I'm not that "unique"....I just know myself very well....and I know what small parts of me I don't know yet. I may do something with a Dom that answers one of my questions about myself. But there's no way he could have known the answer the question first. At best he might make a lucky guess and say "Hey....you might like this....let's try it". I'm not going to know whether or not I like it until I try it, and he isn't going to know either....there is no way that he could.

ETA....I don't know....I'm not "unique"....but maybe I just think the idea of thinking that you know something about someone that they don't know themselves is a bit ....presumptuous?


< Message edited by smileforme50 -- 9/14/2014 10:35:36 AM >

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to AKinkCounselor)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 11:36:01 AM   
AKinkCounselor


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Joined: 8/12/2014
Status: offline 		I generally don't say 'maybe it is this...' until I am at a place that I am 90% confident that my assertion is going to hold water (though there are occasions that I'll say it because I want a reaction, and the reaction will give evidence of whatever else I'm thinking). Its never just a guess.

Professionally I get clients who will say something very similar to what you're saying, that I'm not going to tell them anything new about themselves, that they know themselves pretty damn well already. My answer is always the same, I'm not trying to tell you anything new about yourself, we'll talk and maybe in conversation you'll find a way to understand yourself a little more. I never make flat out assertions in those situations because that's not what they want. They want something they can go away and chew over, so they can have the epithany themselves.

But obviously this is a very academic argument, since neither of us will ever get to a place we would find out which of us is right.

So with that, maybe we should just agree to differ.

I know I can do this and you know I can't.

I'm happy with that.

ETA - I'm a very presumptuous kind of guy. But that presumption comes from a lot of years of doing this stuff, it is the presumption of experience.
ETA P.S. and that is possibly the reason I came at this so head on, I'm quite aware I could have taken a more softly softly approach, and probably got more people on board. But where is the fun in that?

< Message edited by AKinkCounselor -- 9/14/2014 11:38:52 AM >

_____________________________

While in the real world I give advice, this is not that.

These are my opinions (and half thoughts) opinions that I have worked hard to form. They are mine. You shouldn't trust them, you should get your own.

(in reply to smileforme50)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 12:10:58 PM   
AKinkCounselor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

(and I'm surprised you didn't mention this) is:

"If you would have asked me back then, I would have said that there was no way in hell I was ever going to be someone's slave. "

So...Yes....IF someone would have ever told me way back when that they thought I would someday actually want to explore the possibility of being a slave, I would have told them that they were full of it. However...nobody ever made any such assertion to me. I have had a LOT more people tell that I would make a good Domme.

So....someday if I ever go to the other side of the slash and become a Domme I will let you know. Until then....


I didn't mention it because I didn't find it all that interesting or relevant.

You're a strong woman who has had a strong up bringing, you have been constantly encouraged to be independent, of course a lot of that has stuck - I imagine a lot of that is still there - You have a good idea of what you want from your day to day life, and pretty strong opinions of what you need from this life.

People very often mistake that strength for a desire to be domme, the concept of a strong willed submissive seems contradictory to them. So of course a lot of people have told you you'd be a good domme, that's because they don't understand the distinction.

I'd bet there isn't a strong willed submissive in here who hasn't heard that line in her life, it is quite the cliché

As for you being domme in future, I've certainly known submissives who have become domme simply because they can't find the dom they want, that they can't find a dom that can handle their strength of character. However I can't see being domme fitting into your background, I can't imagine it would work with your particular set of needs.

So that is what I read in that bit, and there was no part of it that was pertinent to our previous conversation. Hence I didn't need to mention it.

_____________________________

While in the real world I give advice, this is not that.

These are my opinions (and half thoughts) opinions that I have worked hard to form. They are mine. You shouldn't trust them, you should get your own.

(in reply to smileforme50)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 12:27:03 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

And I have to ask.....What could a dominant know about a submissive that the submissive doesn't already know about him/herself?



Forgive me if this has already been said. I haven't read the entire thread.

Self perception. How you perceive yourself compared to how people really do perceive you. I know plenty of bitchy people. I'm sure they don't think of themselves as bitchy but that's how other people see them.


See...and this is exactly why I don't agree with the idea of someone else thinking they know something about me that I don't know already. I do know I am bitchy and I fully admit it. (Read my response to BecomingV....bitchy all the way and I admit it.)



I didn't mean for anyone to take that quite so literally ;)

I perceive myself to be a certain way. Face to face I always thought I was friendly even to people I don't particularly like, (It comes from years of having to work with the general public.) My partner sees something quite different. He informed me that when I don't like someone, I make it very clear through my mannerisms.

I don't see myself as bossy with my partner and so I was taken aback when a good friend recently told me I was. She said it in a jokey way but when I later questioned her she said, "You often react quite sharply to him when it wasn't really called for". I had no idea and so all I can say is, thank god she told me because I really needed to work on being a more patient and tolerant person to such a lovely decent guy.



_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

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RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 12:37:50 PM   
smileforme50


Posts: 1623
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From: DelaWHERE(?)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AKinkCounselor

I generally don't say 'maybe it is this...' until I am at a place that I am 90% confident that my assertion is going to hold water (though there are occasions that I'll say it because I want a reaction, and the reaction will give evidence of whatever else I'm thinking). Its never just a guess.

Professionally I get clients who will say something very similar to what you're saying, that I'm not going to tell them anything new about themselves, that they know themselves pretty damn well already. My answer is always the same, I'm not trying to tell you anything new about yourself, we'll talk and maybe in conversation you'll find a way to understand yourself a little more. I never make flat out assertions in those situations because that's not what they want. They want something they can go away and chew over, so they can have the epithany themselves.

But obviously this is a very academic argument, since neither of us will ever get to a place we would find out which of us is right.

So with that, maybe we should just agree to differ.

I know I can do this and you know I can't.

I'm happy with that.

ETA - I'm a very presumptuous kind of guy. But that presumption comes from a lot of years of doing this stuff, it is the presumption of experience.how I feel
ETA P.S. and that is possibly the reason I came at this so head on, I'm quite aware I could have taken a more softly softly approach, and probably got more people on board. But where is the fun in that?


Oh...I have no doubt that you can do it for some people ....but not everyone is that oblivious to themselves and their own thoughts, feelings and experiences. Some people DO need help to figure themselves out.
Well maybe that's why they're in therapy and I'm not? There wouldn't be anything for me to talk about.


_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to AKinkCounselor)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 12:42:20 PM   
ExiledTyrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50


There wouldn't be anything for me to talk about.



Other than the occasional need to throttle the life out of some people.

Jus sayin

_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

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RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 12:43:56 PM   
smileforme50


Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

And I have to ask.....What could a dominant know about a submissive that the submissive doesn't already know about him/herself?



Forgive me if this has already been said. I haven't read the entire thread.

Self perception. How you perceive yourself compared to how people really do perceive you. I know plenty of bitchy people. I'm sure they don't think of themselves as bitchy but that's how other people see them.


See...and this is exactly why I don't agree with the idea of someone else thinking they know something about me that I don't know already. I do know I am bitchy and I fully admit it. (Read my response to BecomingV....bitchy all the way and I admit it.)



I didn't mean for anyone to take that quite so literally ;)

I perceive myself to be a certain way. Face to face I always thought I was friendly even to people I don't particularly like, (It comes from years of having to work with the general public.) My partner sees something quite different. He informed me that when I don't like someone, I make it very clear through my mannerisms.

I don't see myself as bossy with my partner and so I was taken aback when a good friend recently told me I was. She said it in a jokey way but when I later questioned her she said, "You often react quite sharply to him when it wasn't really called for". I had no idea and so all I can say is, thank god she told me because I really needed to work on being a more patient and tolerant person to such a lovely decent guy.




But that's exactly what I mean....I'm NOT going to be surprised or offended or defensive if someone were to tell me that I was bitchy or bossy, and like you, when I don't like someone, I can make it known through my mannerisms or my tone of voice. I am totally aware when I am doing it. I may be telling myself that I shouldn't be doing it....but I'm not blind to it.


_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 12:54:49 PM   
AKinkCounselor


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Joined: 8/12/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50


Oh...I have no doubt that you can do it for some people ....but not everyone is that oblivious to themselves and their own thoughts, feelings and experiences. Some people DO need help to figure themselves out.
Well maybe that's why they're in therapy and I'm not? There wouldn't be anything for me to talk about.



Well, there's a few things in your profile you might get a little benefit from talking to someone about, not as therapy, just as conversation and maybe you'll find a way to understand yourself a little more. ;)

_____________________________

While in the real world I give advice, this is not that.

These are my opinions (and half thoughts) opinions that I have worked hard to form. They are mine. You shouldn't trust them, you should get your own.

(in reply to smileforme50)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 1:09:35 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		You mentioned "information leakage" earlier regarding profiles and online communications.

This is really not a good way to make assumptions about people since it is so easy to fabricate a persona online.

The only way to discern anything about anyone, is to spend real time with them and to really listen.

Everything else is just pissing in the wind.

(in reply to AKinkCounselor)
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RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 1:19:16 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I have had a LOT more people tell that I would make a good Domme.



THAT, to me, is the presumptuous part.

A lot of what you have been saying here is ringing true to me. A "strong willed submissive who wants to have her partner care about her feelings?", perish the thought. Personally, I will never be one to give myself to someone at the expense of losing the ability of calling them out when they are being an asshole. The issue then just becomes finding someone who is compatible enough with me that this does not become a huge deal. A little while back, for example, with my current *whatever*, was an asshole when a serious issue came up. I called him on it...nicely...but, I let him know that this was not acceptable to me. Many people would have responded with "I"m the Dom, suck it up". At which point, I would have said, "great, find yourself another submissive". The difference with this guy is that he came to realize he was a dickhead...and, yes, he actually used the word "dickhead". So, we're still moving forward...with me having even more respect for him as a Dom because he accepts the fact that this stuff happens, and he also accepts the fact that I *will* call him on this important stuff.

Like you, I've had people who have told me that I would be a good Domme. Why? Because I have the ability to do it? Because I refuse to take crap? I have done it, and it does absolutely nothing *for me*. Personally, I think it's presumptuous for anyone to be suggesting this to me, unless they know me intimately, and are doing it "tongue in cheek". At this point in my life, I know that it will not fulfill me.

As far as I am concerned, someone "suggesting" things like this to me should have a better reason for doing so than falling back on stereotypes. Or, because they "know how to read people". Pardon me for the eye roll...





(in reply to smileforme50)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 1:19:34 PM   
AKinkCounselor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

You mentioned "information leakage" earlier regarding profiles and online communications.

This is really not a good way to make assumptions about people since it is so easy to fabricate a persona online.

The only way to discern anything about anyone, is to spend real time with them and to really listen.

Everything else is just pissing in the wind.


Actually, the information leakage was about conversations with people, and how people use words. It was about inflection etc, and that works no matter what the medium.

Sure there are some fake people around, but they don't generally spend time exploring themselves in conversation with me.

My mention of profiles was simply an example of what I mean about how that information leaks.

But as long as you know which way the wind is blowing, there's nothing at all wrong with pissing in it.

Pissing into it is something altogether different mind...

_____________________________

While in the real world I give advice, this is not that.

These are my opinions (and half thoughts) opinions that I have worked hard to form. They are mine. You shouldn't trust them, you should get your own.

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Knowing yourself - 9/14/2014 6:31:00 PM   
BecomingV


Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

And I have to ask.....What could a dominant know about a submissive that the submissive doesn't already know about him/herself?



Forgive me if this has already been said. I haven't read the entire thread.

Self perception. How you perceive yourself compared to how people really do perceive you. I know plenty of bitchy people. I'm sure they don't think of themselves as bitchy but that's how other people see them.


See...and this is exactly why I don't agree with the idea of someone else thinking they know something about me that I don't know already. I do know I am bitchy and I fully admit it. (Read my response to BecomingV....bitchy all the way and I admit it.)



I didn't mean for anyone to take that quite so literally ;)

I perceive myself to be a certain way. Face to face I always thought I was friendly even to people I don't particularly like, (It comes from years of having to work with the general public.) My partner sees something quite different. He informed me that when I don't like someone, I make it very clear through my mannerisms.

I don't see myself as bossy with my partner and so I was taken aback when a good friend recently told me I was. She said it in a jokey way but when I later questioned her she said, "You often react quite sharply to him when it wasn't really called for". I had no idea and so all I can say is, thank god she told me because I really needed to work on being a more patient and tolerant person to such a lovely decent guy.




But that's exactly what I mean....I'm NOT going to be surprised or offended or defensive if someone were to tell me that I was bitchy or bossy, and like you, when I don't like someone, I can make it known through my mannerisms or my tone of voice. I am totally aware when I am doing it. I may be telling myself that I shouldn't be doing it....but I'm not blind to it.



smile - LOL. well, this is interesting. You were being bitchy? Okay. If I hadn't just read that, I wouldn't have ever known. When I read your reply, I guess I heard it in the tone with which I had written to you... just matter-of-fact. The only thing I noticed was that while I wrote, "we humans..." you responded as if each reason why people can't see something about themselves, while others can, was directed to you, specifically. I had no idea why you didn't know this, or if you did, why you aren't open to the idea that it applies to you, too. I just gave you information on the topic you asked about.

After reading the thread, now I think that when you asked, "How can someone know something about me that I don't already know about myself?", (which is the question I answered) you were actually not asking at all. You were saying, "I know myself so well, that nobody can tell me anything new about me."

My response to that, "Good luck with that." You know, okay, I accept your POV and your choice to believe that. I'm not angry with you. I'm not disappointed in you. I'm not craving your agreement or understanding. At this point, I leave the discussion knowing I have replied to you to the best of my ability. THAT satisfies me. So, even knowing you say you wrote to me in a bitchy way, does not hurt - at all. What that does, really, is make me think that someone told you that if you disagree, oppose or argue, that this makes you ... something "less." I saw absolutely nothing disrespectful or mean-spirited in your reply. I just saw someone who read the post, thought about it and then communicated back. Respect, you know? Meaning, I respect your effort and while I disagree with your belief, I'm not going to call you "wrong" for holding it. When you live as long as I have, you have many chances to adjust your beliefs, and sometimes do.

So, these thoughts:

Any parent can relate the experience of knowing more about their child than the child knows, themselves. It's a skill. The teacher's view of the student, the coach's view of the athlete, etc...

Some parents, teachers/mentors, see a talent in a child and can change their lives by pointing it out to them. What others see in us, that we don't see ourselves, can often be a POSITIVE thing. Many people don't know how great they are and they need someone else to see it.

Sometimes, it's not good or bad... for instance, a wrestling coach showed me how a certain wrestler, when pinned, actually gave up. It was a character flaw, a weakness. The kid's parents were able to work on that with him. By adulthood, he'd strengthened the flaw... because he was open to others showing him that which he could not see, for himself. This is how we help each other.

These are examples of why I know that humans don't see themselves completely. I hear you. You're the exception because you've worked so hard on knowing yourself. And, furthermore, that those of us who disagree with you, only do so because there are people out there, who due to some mental deficit, NEED others to tell them, what you would know without such feedback. So, I can see why this would be a difficult concept for you to be open to.

Eh, being a submissive can very quickly put you in touch with your vulnerable bits. Perhaps something along the road, in that quest, will highlight this issue better for you. Or, you'll live your whole life closed to others. IDK. I wish you well, though.

And, if you forget or discount, everything else I said... please... never again refer to yourself, or to another, as "bitchy" when they are simply offering a strong, pointed or even, uncomfortable, argument. Categorizing women's views (including your own) as "bitchy" is a psychological tool to diminish the power of women. At least, be aware of your part in keeping THAT hate alive, and stop. Please.

(in reply to smileforme50)
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