RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy

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MrRodgers -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/26/2014 9:31:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted So what we're being told is that the 9/11 attacks didn't involve planes at all, that the towers were taken down with construction explosives. Is that correct? I'd love to know when these explosives were supposedly planted, and how they were kept hidden until it was time to set them off? It takes a lot of explosives to bring down a building. That takes a considerable amount of time to set and calibrate correctly, and isn't something that wouldn't be noticed by building workers. You know that you are absolute right but one must guess that the answers to those questions will never be answered to the satisfaction of many 1000's if not millions of people. Why ? As I said, far, far too many people accept what the govt. told them on faith and/or otherwise...don't care. Oh and as for planes being involved, I'll take it due to what video I have seen that planes did hit the WTC 1 & 2 even though the second sure as hell didn't look like any commercial airliner. As for planes being used to hit the Pentagon and alleged to have crashed in PA. NO !! Obviously, there were no commercial airliners found to have been used at those locations.

Gauge -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/26/2014 9:37:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Not quite and no longer even funny. Who says I was being funny?

MrRodgers -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/26/2014 9:45:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Not quite and no longer even funny. Who says I was being funny? The govt. as a whole may get too many things wrong for many people's satisfaction but with so much of what govt, does, hidden and behind closed doors, it can get a lot of things done. So the idea that any perceived incompetence must translate into universal incompetence is either a bit ridiculous or an attempt at humor.

Gauge -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/26/2014 10:20:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers The govt. as a whole may get too many things wrong for many people's satisfaction but with so much of what govt, does, hidden and behind closed doors, it can get a lot of things done. So the idea that any perceived incompetence must translate into universal incompetence is either a bit ridiculous or an attempt at humor. Hidden? In the middle of Manhattan? In broad daylight? The government pulled off a conspiracy to drop the twin towers with explosives and CGI planes, crash a plane (or not) into the Pentagon, in a plot that would have taken years to plan and even more time to implement, involve hundreds, if not thousands of people in keeping a grave secret and lying for the rest of their natural lives, forcing the media to report the lie, and they accomplish all of this flawlessly without a wrinkle... and I am being ridiculous? The website is not perceived incompetence, it is actual incompetence and an embarrassment... and although one example of incompetence is not indicative of the inability to be competent it does mean that a website is extremely simple to get to work. The very nature of a conspiracy of that magnitude is infinitely more complex, and it is because of the complexity that the implausibility of the entire thing being pulled off without a hitch rises exponentially. I wasn't going to get involved in this thread mainly because there is no scientific proof that has ever been provided by anyone with credibility to prove that a conspiracy exists. What does exist from so called credible sources are more like the rantings or machinations of opportunistic people who want a payday or their 15 minutes of fame. The preponderance of evidence and the expertise of an overwhelming majority of building engineers, scientists, and various other experts all agree that what happened that day, was exactly what we saw happen. If you want to discuss the possibility that our government may have allowed the terrorist plot to happen, I am all ears. No one has shown me anything to make me believe the "truther" side of things.

MrRodgers -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/26/2014 11:01:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers The govt. as a whole may get too many things wrong for many people's satisfaction but with so much of what govt, does, hidden and behind closed doors, it can get a lot of things done. So the idea that any perceived incompetence must translate into universal incompetence is either a bit ridiculous or an attempt at humor. Hidden? In the middle of Manhattan? In broad daylight? The government pulled off a conspiracy to drop the twin towers with explosives and CGI planes, crash a plane (or not) into the Pentagon, in a plot that would have taken years to plan and even more time to implement, involve hundreds, if not thousands of people in keeping a grave secret and lying for the rest of their natural lives, forcing the media to report the lie, and they accomplish all of this flawlessly without a wrinkle... and I am being ridiculous? The website is not perceived incompetence, it is actual incompetence and an embarrassment... and although one example of incompetence is not indicative of the inability to be competent it does mean that a website is extremely simple to get to work. The very nature of a conspiracy of that magnitude is infinitely more complex, and it is because of the complexity that the implausibility of the entire thing being pulled off without a hitch rises exponentially. I wasn't going to get involved in this thread mainly because there is no scientific proof that has ever been provided by anyone with credibility to prove that a conspiracy exists. What does exist from so called credible sources are more like the rantings or machinations of opportunistic people who want a payday or their 15 minutes of fame. The preponderance of evidence and the expertise of an overwhelming majority of building engineers, scientists, and various other experts all agree that what happened that day, was exactly what we saw happen. If you want to discuss the possibility that our government may have allowed the terrorist plot to happen, I am all ears. No one has shown me anything to make me believe the "truther" side of things. Like I've said, I am not going to get started unless somebody wants to deliver the Dragon software because of all of the typing but suffice it to say that this "The preponderance of evidence and the expertise of an overwhelming majority of building engineers, scientists, and various other experts all agree that what happened that day, was exactly what we saw happen" is patently not true at least depending on what YOU saw. What we saw ?? What I saw was 3 bldgs. being demolished via well timed explosives. What I saw was molten steel coming out of those bldgs. confirming just that. What I saw was all 3 bldgs in free fall or falling and in virtual symmetry...at approx. 60+ MPH. as well as another bldg do so...without any plane or kerosene fire involved at all. THAT'S...what I saw. There is right now before congress, a petition before them from in fact 1000's (2,297) engineers and scientists professionals in the industry seeking a clear investigation into the destruction of all 3 WTC bldgs. That petition is dutifully being ignored as have all others including foreign professionals who have questioned our govt's story of 9/11 since about 2002. 9/11Truth.org HERE

Gauge -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 2:11:05 AM)
Dr. Steven Novella had a debate with a 9-11 "Truther" who made many of the same claims you have. http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/911-conspiracy-debate-part-i/ http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/911-conspiracy-debate-part-ii/ http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/911-conspiracy-debate-part-iii/ http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/911-conspiracy-debate-part-iv/ PBS did a special on why the towers fell. It deals with engineering, science and things like facts. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqxJpykW00 I want you to explain to me how enough explosives were placed in both towers without anyone noticing... or are you one of the "nanothermite" believers? I also would like an explanation on what type of precision demolition would have to have in order to produce the desired result. I would also like to know why anyone would bother to fly two airplanes into the buildings when the towers had already been targets for terrorist bomb attacks before. Wouldn't the most powerful message be taking down the towers, full of people, no evacuation possible, just flip the switch and down they come? Why bother trying to create an illusion? What is the point? 911 truthers are all about saying what happened, but they fall desperately short on how it was accomplished. So, lay it out for me, how did all of this get pulled off, flawlessly?

Real0ne -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 10:27:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge PBS did a special on why the towers fell. It deals with engineering, science and things like facts Wow, lots of stuff. I really do not have time to go into depth right now but I will look at everything you have and get back as time allows. So far unfortunately it appears the bulk of the posts from those who support the official story seem to want to either bypass forensics completely or accept insufficient forensics as a proof. Meantime here are a couple of rather informative things you all can look at. http://www.corbettreport.com/psyops-101-an-introduction-to-psychological-operations/ This is a very well done propaganda piece. The person who is contesting the no plane shot is leaving it to your imagination to fill in the blanks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GujXIfqc23A How about this? Real or fake? [image]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d141/4dumdebunkers/wtc2/nopenoplanehere_zpsbhurovvg.gif[/image] If you all are forensic investigators you would be ethically required to examine all these things. amd for joether this may answer a few of his contentions. [image]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d141/4dumdebunkers/THERMATE/alumvsteel4_zpsbke8xwoo.gif[/image] and Richard Gage Professional Architect Speaks Out at CSpan I can show you contrary evidence to the official story, how does that fit into your assessment procedure?

DomKen -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 1:27:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh and as for planes being involved, I'll take it due to what video I have seen that planes did hit the WTC 1 & 2 even though the second sure as hell didn't look like any commercial airliner. It sure as hell was. quote: As for planes being used to hit the Pentagon and alleged to have crashed in PA. NO !! Obviously, there were no commercial airliners found to have been used at those locations. You know there were eyewitnesses right? As a matter of fact there are still bits of the plane coming up out of the crater in PA which only occurs when a large objects impacts soft ground at high speed. Do try not to be so utterly full of shit. Consider for a moment the pointlessness of adding in the PA crash site if this was entirely a setup. Why add in the 4th plane that didn't reach a target? Why crash it in a farm field in the middle of nowhere? What good does that do? If this was done by a government conspiracy that makes no sense at all.

Gauge -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 4:07:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Meantime here are a couple of rather informative things you all can look at. http://www.corbettreport.com/psyops-101-an-introduction-to-psychological-operations/ Didn't tell me very much that I didn't already know. quote: This is a very well done propaganda piece. The person who is contesting the no plane shot is leaving it to your imagination to fill in the blanks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GujXIfqc23A The person contesting the video made some good points. The one real question that I have is how did all the eyewitnesses see those planes if they didn't exist? quote: How about this? Real or fake? I have to be honest with you, your gifs do fuckall for me without a detailed explanation of what the fuck I am supposed to be looking at. quote: Richard Gage Professional Architect Speaks Out at CSpan How many architects and engineers are there in the world? It would seem to me that 2,200 of them could be dead wrong. If, however, their claims had any credibility, how does the government maintain the silence of the rest of the engineers and architects in the world who would join them in questioning the official story? I would think there would be far more than 2,200 of them if there was credible evidence to support the conspiracy theorists. quote: I can show you contrary evidence to the official story, how does that fit into your assessment procedure? So far on this thread you and others like you, have thrown around a lot of "evidence" which is sketchy at best. So, answer the questions I asked. How did they pull off this incredible illusion? How did they rig 3, well secured buildings, for demolition without anyone noticing or questioning what they were doing? Additionally, the absolute precision needed to drop those buildings successfully in rapid succession would be absolutely astronomical to get timed perfectly. How are they keeping everyone quiet that was involved in the conspiracy? Those numbers would also include eyewitnesses to the attack, who all would have to lie about the planes that magically were not there. My assessment procedures are as follows... logic and reason supported by credible scientific evidence. Conspiracy theorists that I have listened to over the years fail on most of that.

MrRodgers -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 4:34:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh and as for planes being involved, I'll take it due to what video I have seen that planes did hit the WTC 1 & 2 even though the second sure as hell didn't look like any commercial airliner. It sure as hell was. quote: As for planes being used to hit the Pentagon and alleged to have crashed in PA. NO !! Obviously, there were no commercial airliners found to have been used at those locations. You know there were eyewitnesses right? As a matter of fact there are still bits of the plane coming up out of the crater in PA which only occurs when a large objects impacts soft ground at high speed. Do try not to be so utterly full of shit. Consider for a moment the pointlessness of adding in the PA crash site if this was entirely a setup. Why add in the 4th plane that didn't reach a target? Why crash it in a farm field in the middle of nowhere? What good does that do? If this was done by a government conspiracy that makes no sense at all. You keep resulting to essentially nothing in so far as any proof of the govt's position and insult. If there was a commercial airliner in PA, why did ot not show on any videos immediately after the crash ? Why on a live news broadcast when asked...the county coroner was there aqt the crash site only 15 mins. ? He pronounced nobody dead because there was nobody for which to do so. Because there were no bodies, no blood and in fact, no seats, no engines, no luggage and no freight. Why ? Because there was no fucking airplane. BTW the 9/11 commission settled the matter...the planes that hit the Pentagon and crashed in PA...V A P O R I Z E D on contact. Yeaaa right...90 tons of steel and titaniium...vaporized on contact. Now I don't come here to denigrate or insult people. I simply ask questions for which there has been NO answers and I am done here. No more. And for Guage: the bldgs in NY were witnessed to have had construction crews visiting for 10 days just weeks prior and between 1 & 3 or 4 AM and they when planted the explosives. Tenants soon thereafter, complained of dust all over the bldg. One floor in each bldg., had been redone with what appeared to large 'batteries' installed none which they said thought were 'turned on.' All of it was off limits for tenants and investigators. Funny how those was the floors of impact. Again, no real investigation was done at the site where later...residue of nanothermite and molten steel was found by others and right where the temp. of the debris was 1500 F several weeks after the attack. Why ? I have a whole list of why's and just don't feel like listing them all for a small crowd that simply chooses to remain in denial. If you choose to believe the wholly unproven conspiracy theory of the govt., that is your choice. I do not and for rather obvious reasons.

Politesub53 -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 5:58:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted So what we're being told is that the 9/11 attacks didn't involve planes at all, that the towers were taken down with construction explosives. Is that correct? I'd love to know when these explosives were supposedly planted, and how they were kept hidden until it was time to set them off? It takes a lot of explosives to bring down a building. That takes a considerable amount of time to set and calibrate correctly, and isn't something that wouldn't be noticed by building workers. Not only that, but they wish to convince you that the thousands of people that must have been involved to pull off any such conspiracy, have all decided to keep quiet. That not one Politican since, nor one detective has decided to open up the case again, that not one TV crew member, cop, fireman, eyewitness etc etc has dared to speak up. R.O continually posts cropped photos or some dodgy experiment videode in a filed that shows he is the only one that know the truth.

DomKen -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 10:16:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh and as for planes being involved, I'll take it due to what video I have seen that planes did hit the WTC 1 & 2 even though the second sure as hell didn't look like any commercial airliner. It sure as hell was. quote: As for planes being used to hit the Pentagon and alleged to have crashed in PA. NO !! Obviously, there were no commercial airliners found to have been used at those locations. You know there were eyewitnesses right? As a matter of fact there are still bits of the plane coming up out of the crater in PA which only occurs when a large objects impacts soft ground at high speed. Do try not to be so utterly full of shit. Consider for a moment the pointlessness of adding in the PA crash site if this was entirely a setup. Why add in the 4th plane that didn't reach a target? Why crash it in a farm field in the middle of nowhere? What good does that do? If this was done by a government conspiracy that makes no sense at all. You keep resulting to essentially nothing in so far as any proof of the govt's position and insult. If there was a commercial airliner in PA, why did ot not show on any videos immediately after the crash ? Why on a live news broadcast when asked...the county coroner was there aqt the crash site only 15 mins. ? He pronounced nobody dead because there was nobody for which to do so. Because there isn't much left but confetti when a jet goes into the ground at full power imbecile. Maybe if you knew shit about physics you'd understand that. Do you even have any idea the amount of energy involved? Just do the fucking calculation and then realize that a plane of that size hitting the ground at anywhere near full throttle would be pulverized. (and BTW they did find some pieces scattered about exactly as would be expected anyone who says otherwise is lying).

MrRodgers -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/27/2014 11:50:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh and as for planes being involved, I'll take it due to what video I have seen that planes did hit the WTC 1 & 2 even though the second sure as hell didn't look like any commercial airliner. It sure as hell was. quote: As for planes being used to hit the Pentagon and alleged to have crashed in PA. NO !! Obviously, there were no commercial airliners found to have been used at those locations. You know there were eyewitnesses right? As a matter of fact there are still bits of the plane coming up out of the crater in PA which only occurs when a large objects impacts soft ground at high speed. Do try not to be so utterly full of shit. Consider for a moment the pointlessness of adding in the PA crash site if this was entirely a setup. Why add in the 4th plane that didn't reach a target? Why crash it in a farm field in the middle of nowhere? What good does that do? If this was done by a government conspiracy that makes no sense at all. You keep resulting to essentially nothing in so far as any proof of the govt's position and insult. If there was a commercial airliner in PA, why did ot not show on any videos immediately after the crash ? Why on a live news broadcast when asked...the county coroner was there aqt the crash site only 15 mins. ? He pronounced nobody dead because there was nobody for which to do so. Because there isn't much left but confetti when a jet goes into the ground at full power imbecile. Maybe if you knew shit about physics you'd understand that. Do you even have any idea the amount of energy involved? Just do the fucking calculation and then realize that a plane of that size hitting the ground at anywhere near full throttle would be pulverized. (and BTW they did find some pieces scattered about exactly as would be expected anyone who says otherwise is lying). If you wish to believe that...fine, I don't and not for a second. 90 tons of aircraft, the contents, the people, do not just vanish into the ground or the air nor does it just vaporize. Can't have it both ways and one does not find...just pieces. That's the laws of physics. What so many don't want to bring themselves to admit even to themselves using the basics of an investigation into a conspiracy, is that as soon as one piece and then another start to reveal unanswered questions then those pursued lead to others and then others and soon...people are brought to testify. Without that, then the real truth will never be completely revealed. But no aircraft crashed in Skanksville, Pa. and no aircraft crashed into the Pentagon. With those facts, the rest begin to fall apart.

DomKen -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/28/2014 5:31:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh and as for planes being involved, I'll take it due to what video I have seen that planes did hit the WTC 1 & 2 even though the second sure as hell didn't look like any commercial airliner. It sure as hell was. quote: As for planes being used to hit the Pentagon and alleged to have crashed in PA. NO !! Obviously, there were no commercial airliners found to have been used at those locations. You know there were eyewitnesses right? As a matter of fact there are still bits of the plane coming up out of the crater in PA which only occurs when a large objects impacts soft ground at high speed. Do try not to be so utterly full of shit. Consider for a moment the pointlessness of adding in the PA crash site if this was entirely a setup. Why add in the 4th plane that didn't reach a target? Why crash it in a farm field in the middle of nowhere? What good does that do? If this was done by a government conspiracy that makes no sense at all. You keep resulting to essentially nothing in so far as any proof of the govt's position and insult. If there was a commercial airliner in PA, why did ot not show on any videos immediately after the crash ? Why on a live news broadcast when asked...the county coroner was there aqt the crash site only 15 mins. ? He pronounced nobody dead because there was nobody for which to do so. Because there isn't much left but confetti when a jet goes into the ground at full power imbecile. Maybe if you knew shit about physics you'd understand that. Do you even have any idea the amount of energy involved? Just do the fucking calculation and then realize that a plane of that size hitting the ground at anywhere near full throttle would be pulverized. (and BTW they did find some pieces scattered about exactly as would be expected anyone who says otherwise is lying). If you wish to believe that...fine, I don't and not for a second. 90 tons of aircraft, the contents, the people, do not just vanish into the ground or the air nor does it just vaporize. Can't have it both ways and one does not find...just pieces. That's the laws of physics. Actually it is the laws of physics. Most of the plane was reduced to very small pieces and was buried very deeply in the soil at the impact point. You are welcome to consult with a qualified scientist on the matter. So you are wrong on this very basic point of your theory. BTW this points out one of the basic problems with 9/11 truthers, They do not seem able to grasp the power that a modern jumbo jet possesses. The engines on the 757 were producing somewhere around 90k lbf of force when the plane hit the ground plus how ever much actual velocity the plane had from its own dive.

Gauge -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/28/2014 3:02:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers And for Guage: the bldgs in NY were witnessed to have had construction crews visiting for 10 days just weeks prior and between 1 & 3 or 4 AM and they when planted the explosives. Tenants soon thereafter, complained of dust all over the bldg. One floor in each bldg., had been redone with what appeared to large 'batteries' installed none which they said thought were 'turned on.' All of it was off limits for tenants and investigators. Funny how those was the floors of impact. Again, no real investigation was done at the site where later...residue of nanothermite and molten steel was found by others and right where the temp. of the debris was 1500 F several weeks after the attack. Why ? I have a whole list of why's and just don't feel like listing them all for a small crowd that simply chooses to remain in denial. If you choose to believe the wholly unproven conspiracy theory of the govt., that is your choice. I do not and for rather obvious reasons. You have documentation on these claims that come from credible news sources? Do you think that it took 10 days to rig 3 enormous buildings that were not abandoned for destruction? I am no expert on the demolition of buildings, but I know there is a lot more involved than simply placing charges. Also, to suggest that I am in denial is kind of pointless isn't it? I mean, I could say the very same thing about you but why should I? We disagree, I am not going to convince you, and you are not likely to sway my opinion without some hardcore proof.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/28/2014 4:25:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge Do you think that it took 10 days to rig 3 enormous buildings that were not abandoned for destruction? I am no expert on the demolition of buildings, but I know there is a lot more involved than simply placing charges. I've only had very minimal training with explosives, a few days during basic is all, but my understanding is it takes weeks to rig a building for demolition. And that's in an empty building that you're working in for 8-10 hours a day, and not trying to conceal your work. It also involves not just the planting of the explosives themselves, but interconnecting them with miles of wire and fuse (det cord/primer cord), and then connecting all of this to control boards, so that the explosions all go off at the precise times. I find it highly unlikely that all of this could have been done in inhabited buildings.

DomKen -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/28/2014 4:35:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge Do you think that it took 10 days to rig 3 enormous buildings that were not abandoned for destruction? I am no expert on the demolition of buildings, but I know there is a lot more involved than simply placing charges. I've only had very minimal training with explosives, a few days during basic is all, but my understanding is it takes weeks to rig a building for demolition. And that's in an empty building that you're working in for 8-10 hours a day, and not trying to conceal your work. It also involves not just the planting of the explosives themselves, but interconnecting them with miles of wire and fuse (det cord/primer cord), and then connecting all of this to control boards, so that the explosions all go off at the precise times. I find it highly unlikely that all of this could have been done in inhabited buildings. There is a documentary from PBS on imploding a building. It took weeks to prep and there is no way it could have been concealed.

thompsonx -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/29/2014 6:56:06 AM)
ORIGINAL: DomKen There is a documentary from PBS on imploding a building. It took weeks to prep and there is no way it could have been concealed. Perhaps a link would support your position. Was the building that you reference structurally the same as the wtc?

thompsonx -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/29/2014 6:59:51 AM)
ORIGINAL: Gauge I am no expert on the demolition of buildings, Then why do you offer your ignorant opinion? but I know there is a lot more involved than simply placing charges. How would you know this if,as you say, you are no expert on the demolition of buildings?

thompsonx -> RE: Never Forget! Sept 11th, A Day of Infamy (10/29/2014 7:02:46 AM)
ORIGINAL: DomKen BTW this points out one of the basic problems with 9/11 truthers, They do not seem able to grasp the power that a modern jumbo jet possesses. Possessing power is not the same as applyng it now is it?[8\|] The engines on the 757 were producing somewhere around 90k lbf of force when the plane hit the ground How do you know this? Do you have a cite to reference this to? plus how ever much actual velocity the plane had from its own dive. Wouldn't that velocity be due to the thrust of the engines?

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