RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman

RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 11:03:56 AM)
quote: She broke the law, but of course she's going to get a pass. Arguably, she's already had her punishment: she got tazed.

PeonForHer -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 11:09:21 AM)
quote: They could have grabbed her but then there is the chance that she would fight back and then people would be crying that those big bad cops beat up that poor women. Aren't cops generally trained to restrain people without hurting them over there? They manage it on a daily basis over here. It doesn't usually require black-belt level martial arts skills. Unless the woman looked particularly big and threatening to the two cops ... while the two cops in question were a little bit on the frail and delicate side, maybe?

Extravagasm -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 12:00:12 PM)
quote: eulero83: to live in a police state where obbedience and discipline are more important than life and freedom, mostly because you think it's somebody else's problem, you feel above that, because you fit in that kind of society, and probably because you've been lucky enough to never experience those kind of power abuse. I wish you good luck and be glad those who wrote your bill of rights where not like you (eulero83 post 20). Well and plainly said, eulero

thishereboi -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 12:26:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 So they used the taser to be sure that people would complain about it. Because people wouldn't have complained if two white cops had restrained her? Or had to bring her to the ground by force? This just seems like another unwinable situation for the police, anything they could have done would have been wrong and they'd have been branded as racist thugs. ok maybe I was not clear enough, the problem (and the reason people are complaining) is the cop choosed an option that is painfull and dangerouse when the woman was not posing a threat, so when the question is "why did you choose to use unnecessary violence?" the answer "people would have complained any way, so why not?" makes you sound like a sadist because it sounds that pain you caused is a punishment for not compalining and for what I understand of your costitution this contrasts the 8th amendement. And how would you have stopped her from walking away? Stepped in front of her. Explained she was being arrested and to surrender peacefully. And rank up the level of force from there. They had already told her she was under arrest and she turned and walked away.

thishereboi -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 12:28:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 So they used the taser to be sure that people would complain about it. Because people wouldn't have complained if two white cops had restrained her? Or had to bring her to the ground by force? This just seems like another unwinable situation for the police, anything they could have done would have been wrong and they'd have been branded as racist thugs. ok maybe I was not clear enough, the problem (and the reason people are complaining) is the cop choosed an option that is painfull and dangerouse when the woman was not posing a threat, so when the question is "why did you choose to use unnecessary violence?" the answer "people would have complained any way, so why not?" makes you sound like a sadist because it sounds that pain you caused is a punishment for not compalining and for what I understand of your costitution this contrasts the 8th amendement. And how would you have stopped her from walking away? That's not my point, you seem like thinking or that whoever complains about police brutality is a crybaby or someone that's part of some sort of crime supporting cospiracy, I tried to explain that's not the case the problem is I see no proportion between action and reaction in terms of roughness. Bullshit quote: to answer your question: first I don't know exactly what she did to be arrested, so if she was just advocating or complaining for the other persons' arrest I would have just ignored her and kept doing what I was doing and so had no reason to stop and detain her, if she committed a crime than called a colleague and grabbed her by both arms and handcuffed her. For sure I would not have caused great pain to her just to not speed up my pace a little bit or save two minutes time, and for what I've seen in the video I would have never considered that woman a threat to my safety so no need to cause pain. Well if you don't want to cause pain you might reconsider grabbing her. I have seen cops try that and it didn't end well.

thishereboi -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 12:30:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: They could have grabbed her but then there is the chance that she would fight back and then people would be crying that those big bad cops beat up that poor women. Aren't cops generally trained to restrain people without hurting them over there? They manage it on a daily basis over here. It doesn't usually require black-belt level martial arts skills. Unless the woman looked particularly big and threatening to the two cops ... while the two cops in question were a little bit on the frail and delicate side, maybe? Yes they are but it doesn't always work out that way.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/3/2014 11:01:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I have the suspect you want to live in a police state where obbedience and discipline are more important than life and freedom, mostly because you think it's somebody else's problem, you feel above that, because you fit in that kind of society, and probably because you've been lucky enough to never experience those kind of power abuse. I wish you good luck and be glad those who wrote your bill of rights where not like you. You love to bitch about people insisting they know you and what you're thinking. How about not pulling the same shit yourself? I've had run-ins with the police that weren't positive. Not that long ago I was basically threatened by a police officer when she found out I was carrying. Another time I had the NJ state police give me crap after a routine traffic stop when the officer saw a spent shell casing on the back seat of my car. I also had an incident when I was younger where an officer threatened myself and my friends. In all cases, I stayed calm, stayed polite, and didn't get myself arrested/Tased/shot. Then dealt with it later in an appropriate manner. What I didn't do was start shooting my mouth off and acting like the police were my personal "punching bags". It's against the law to hinder the police when they're making an arrest or investigating a crime. Regardless of your own personal opinion of what should be allowed, you just can't do that. If there's police brutality, report it. Call the media. Take a video. But you're not allowed to walk into the middle of an arrest and start causing trouble. And if you've read the reports, she wasn't complaining about brutality, she just "wanted to know what was going on". I suspect it might have something to do with one of the suspects being arrested also being named Young who was arrested for probation violations from a prior drug conviction. You said earlier that the police should have just ignored her. If you were trying to effect an arrest and cuff suspects, would you ignore someone at your back yelling? You never know when someone might go from yelling to violence. (There was also already a crowd around the officers when Young pulled up and started interfering.) You also don't want random people contaminating any evidence that might be there. That's why everyone is told to step back and clear the scene. That's a lawful order. In this country, and I strongly suspect in yours as well, it's against the law to ignore a lawful order by a police officer.

eulero83 -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 12:29:33 AM)
Your answer reinforce my idea. this is the full video I see no violence by the woman to the cop that justify the use of a taser and I don't even see interferences in the police work. The law here are different and she wouldn't be arrested in first place.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 1:40:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 Your answer reinforce my idea. this is the full video I see no violence by the woman to the cop that justify the use of a taser and I don't even see interferences in the police work. The law here are different and she wouldn't be arrested in first place. Really? So in Italy if the police tell you to get away from a crime scene, and you refuse they won't arrest you? When they tell someone that they're under arrest, if the person decides they don't want to be and walks away, they just let them go? I call bull shit.

eulero83 -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 2:28:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 Your answer reinforce my idea. this is the full video I see no violence by the woman to the cop that justify the use of a taser and I don't even see interferences in the police work. The law here are different and she wouldn't be arrested in first place. Really? So in Italy if the police tell you to get away from a crime scene, and you refuse they won't arrest you? When they tell someone that they're under arrest, if the person decides they don't want to be and walks away, they just let them go? I call bull shit. If they border the scene with a tape with police wrote on it than you can't cross it, but I don't think there is arrest for crossing it (I looked and couldn't find any criminal law anout it) maybe a fine for the traffic law, this means you are arrested only if you can't provide ID and only for the time necessary to prove your identity. If there is no delimitation you are free to approach an agent and advocate your position. If you resist the arrest the will force you but they have obligation to use only necessary and proportional force to put you in custody nothing more. Of course it can happen you find an asshole cop that will abude his power, but the law calls it an abuse and punishes it. anyway this is a video of an arrest in Livorno. In the end of the video a woman files a complaint for abuse, and the local police chief starts investigating it, asking if there is any witnesses that wants to back up the accuse. and this is in naples I think, the woman was not arrested.

NorthernGent -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 3:04:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I have the suspect you want to live in a police state where obbedience and discipline are more important than life and freedom, mostly because you think it's somebody else's problem, you feel above that, because you fit in that kind of society, and probably because you've been lucky enough to never experience those kind of power abuse. I wish you good luck and be glad those who wrote your bill of rights where not like you. Does it necessarily follow that the use of a Taser or arresting someone for non-compliance equates to living in a 'police state'? Here in England a small number of counties' police forces use them and believe it or not some blind fella was Tasered when the polis mistakenly thought his white stick was a samurai sword (this actually did happen! the idiots) Like you, I'm instinctively not comfortable with the polis throwing their weight around too much, but you may have picked a poor example because in this instance you'd be hard pushed to argue that the actions of the polis were not all above board in administering their duty: which it to preserve law and order. In an ideal world a stern warning such as: "fuck off, now" would be sufficient on each and every occasion, but that's not the world we live in.

eulero83 -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 3:26:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I have the suspect you want to live in a police state where obbedience and discipline are more important than life and freedom, mostly because you think it's somebody else's problem, you feel above that, because you fit in that kind of society, and probably because you've been lucky enough to never experience those kind of power abuse. I wish you good luck and be glad those who wrote your bill of rights where not like you. Does it necessarily follow that the use of a Taser or arresting someone for non-compliance equates to living in a 'police state'? if the suspect was not violent but just refusing to obey yes it necessary follows

joether -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 5:31:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 So they used the taser to be sure that people would complain about it. Because people wouldn't have complained if two white cops had restrained her? Or had to bring her to the ground by force? This just seems like another unwinable situation for the police, anything they could have done would have been wrong and they'd have been branded as racist thugs. ok maybe I was not clear enough, the problem (and the reason people are complaining) is the cop choosed an option that is painfull and dangerouse when the woman was not posing a threat, so when the question is "why did you choose to use unnecessary violence?" the answer "people would have complained any way, so why not?" makes you sound like a sadist because it sounds that pain you caused is a punishment for not compalining and for what I understand of your costitution this contrasts the 8th amendement. And how would you have stopped her from walking away? Stepped in front of her. Explained she was being arrested and to surrender peacefully. And rank up the level of force from there. They had already told her she was under arrest and she turned and walked away. Your not following, are you? They say she was being arrested. She turned to leave. "Stepped in front of her. Explained she was being arrested and to surrender peacefully. And rank up the level of force from there." In other words, step in front of her, and explain in a polite manner that she is under arrest and to surrender peacefully. Might even go so far as to explain...WHY...she is under arrest. But that the level of force used starts low and rises as the person resists. Here's a good question: Would the guy operating the camera have the audio of that specific encounter I just expressed? Answer: No, he would be to far from the camera to pick up the conversation. All it would pick up, is the officers 'attacking' her as they try to arrest while she struggles. An that is the problem with this form of media. That people don't have the audio and are left to assume things without evidence or facts.

Zonie63 -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 6:15:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I have the suspect you want to live in a police state where obbedience and discipline are more important than life and freedom, mostly because you think it's somebody else's problem, you feel above that, because you fit in that kind of society, and probably because you've been lucky enough to never experience those kind of power abuse. I wish you good luck and be glad those who wrote your bill of rights where not like you. Does it necessarily follow that the use of a Taser or arresting someone for non-compliance equates to living in a 'police state'? Not necessarily, although it would depend on what the courts and the political leadership choose to allow. Obviously, the police are not allowed to do whatever they want, since there is a chain of command and a political/legal hierarchy they have to operate under. If that hierarchy operates fairly and transparently, then that would not be an indication of a police state. Riots don't happen just because police get out of line; they happen when police get out of line and the proper authorities don't do anything about it. There's also an attitude shared by more than a few people who believe the police are incapable of doing any wrong whatsoever. Or, at the very least, it's an attitude which believes that the police are somehow "above" the rest of society, particularly those who live in poor or disadvantaged areas. It coincides with an irrational belief that if the police don't come down hard on each and every instance of disrespect, defiance, and/or non-compliance, it will lead to "anarchy." These are the kinds of attitudes which could lead us into a police state, if we're not careful.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 7:35:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Your not following, are you? They say she was being arrested. She turned to leave. "Stepped in front of her. Explained she was being arrested and to surrender peacefully. And rank up the level of force from there." In other words, step in front of her, and explain in a polite manner that she is under arrest and to surrender peacefully. Might even go so far as to explain...WHY...she is under arrest. But that the level of force used starts low and rises as the person resists. Here's a good question: Would the guy operating the camera have the audio of that specific encounter I just expressed? Answer: No, he would be to far from the camera to pick up the conversation. All it would pick up, is the officers 'attacking' her as they try to arrest while she struggles. An that is the problem with this form of media. That people don't have the audio and are left to assume things without evidence or facts. I am following you, and I think to a degree, they did ratchet up the response, although they did escalate it rather hard. Unfortunately the video only shows the very end of the encounter. The news reports make it seem like she was there and interacting with the police for longer. There was a statement to the effect that she pulled up (in her car?) and began asking the officers what was going on, why these people were being arrested, etc. She was told several times to step back. The one officer in the video tells her that if she approaches the car again, she'd be arrested. The other officer, the one who used the Taser, was motioning her to keep going. When she started to come back, he grabbed her wrist. That was when she was officially under arrest. She jerked her hand away, turned and started walking away. That's when she was Tased. So, they asked her to leave. They warned her what would happen if she didn't. They tried to effect an arrest, and she resisted. While some might not see that as violence, she did jerk her hand away from the officer. I'll bet there are attorneys out there that would call that assault. I'd also wager that if a man had jerked away like that, they'd have found themselves on the ground hard. At that point, I don't think there was anything they could have done that would have made them look good.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 7:59:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 If they border the scene with a tape with police wrote on it than you can't cross it, but I don't think there is arrest for crossing it (I looked and couldn't find any criminal law anout it) maybe a fine for the traffic law, this means you are arrested only if you can't provide ID and only for the time necessary to prove your identity. If there is no delimitation you are free to approach an agent and advocate your position. If you resist the arrest the will force you but they have obligation to use only necessary and proportional force to put you in custody nothing more. Of course it can happen you find an asshole cop that will abude his power, but the law calls it an abuse and punishes it. anyway this is a video of an arrest in Livorno. In the end of the video a woman files a complaint for abuse, and the local police chief starts investigating it, asking if there is any witnesses that wants to back up the accuse. and this is in naples I think, the woman was not arrested. I don't know if crossing police tape is illegal, but there's also generally someone watching the tape telling people not to cross and to stay back. Ignoring those instructions is illegal. You keep saying that she wasn't doing anything wrong, wasn't interfering, but that's exactly what she was doing when she refused to obey the instructions she was being given. You don't have to like it, but that all by itself is a crime. We have folks arguing all the time that the police are being thugs and bullies, and I'll agree with you that this is true is some cases. But we've also developed a portion of society who seem to feel that they have the right to do whatever the hell they want, and that they can ignore or actively resist the police without consequences. These people think that the police are under an obligation to explain themselves to anyone who confronts them, and that isn't true either. If an officer is arresting someone, he doesn't have to tell you why. The department has to explain why, but the officer making the arrest isn't required to do so. The main reason police don't want people too close is, making an arrest is dangerous. Until the suspect is cuffed, patted down, and in the car, anything can happen. If the officer has to pay attention to the person he's trying to arrest and others at the same time that makes it even more dangerous. So anyone not actively involved with an arrest is told to get back. If Ms. Young had waited till the suspects were all cuffed and secured in vehicles, then gone to ask someone why they were being arrested, she'd have likely got a very different response, but as she wanted her answers now and thought that gave her the right to interfere.

Musicmystery -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/4/2014 8:05:15 AM)
~FR~ Oh please. People. They used a taser because they could, and they had one. No other reason. That's the trouble with a new weapons mentality. Had this been pre-taser, they'd have quickly handcuffed her in the normal fashion. And I'm pretty sure they'd have survived her willy ninja ways. [8\|]

NorthernGent -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/5/2014 7:20:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I have the suspect you want to live in a police state where obbedience and discipline are more important than life and freedom, mostly because you think it's somebody else's problem, you feel above that, because you fit in that kind of society, and probably because you've been lucky enough to never experience those kind of power abuse. I wish you good luck and be glad those who wrote your bill of rights where not like you. Does it necessarily follow that the use of a Taser or arresting someone for non-compliance equates to living in a 'police state'? Not necessarily, although it would depend on what the courts and the political leadership choose to allow. Obviously, the police are not allowed to do whatever they want, since there is a chain of command and a political/legal hierarchy they have to operate under. If that hierarchy operates fairly and transparently, then that would not be an indication of a police state. Riots don't happen just because police get out of line; they happen when police get out of line and the proper authorities don't do anything about it. There's also an attitude shared by more than a few people who believe the police are incapable of doing any wrong whatsoever. Or, at the very least, it's an attitude which believes that the police are somehow "above" the rest of society, particularly those who live in poor or disadvantaged areas. It coincides with an irrational belief that if the police don't come down hard on each and every instance of disrespect, defiance, and/or non-compliance, it will lead to "anarchy." These are the kinds of attitudes which could lead us into a police state, if we're not careful. Zonie, There have to be rules and regulations so that we all know where we stand. This concept is inseparable from the Rule of Law. As has been pointed out in this thread, the lady was causing a problem at a crime scene and in effect hampering the efforts of the polis to undertake their duties, and as such she needed to be reprimanded. Where I do agree with you is that we have a situation over here whereby people can be stopped and detained at airports and the like, and have their property confiscated for this period of time, I think it's up to 10 hours; and the polis can do this without holding any reasonable suspicion of guilt (all to do with 'security'). In effect, they can stop and detain anyone. Accusations of a 'police state' could quite justifiably be levelled at our government and associates in this scenario. It's the age old question of how order and liberty can be balanced. And, in my opinion, the balance was struck with this lady in the US and I don't think she can have any complaints, whereas what is happening over here with detaining people in the interests of 'security' is another matter.

thompsonx -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/5/2014 8:21:08 AM)
ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted The only thing I have to say regarding this is that the woman had been told she was under arrest, What crime did the cops inform her that she was being arrsted? decided that she didn't feel like being arrested, pulled away from the officer and started walking away. It might be nice if people stopped acting as if they're immune from the repercussions of ignoring the police. What law prohibits a citizen from speaking to cops? What law says you have to do what a cop says? However, you would think that two officers should have been able to make the arrest without resorting to a Taser. You seem to have a pretty firm grasp of the obvious on that point.

thompsonx -> RE: Cop put on leave after tasing 61-year-old woman (10/5/2014 8:33:08 AM)
ORIGINAL: thishereboi They could have grabbed her but then there is the chance that she would fight back and then people would be crying that those big bad cops beat up that poor women. That is why cops have to go to school to learn how to do that without beating someone sensless. Pepper spray is hard to control and depends on the wind. It would be a difficult situation no matter what they did. Two boy cops one girl...why do they need something besides their hands? The taser stopped her and she walked away from it so she might consider herself lucky Will you consider yourself lucky the next time you get tazed or being gay in public? and the next time a cop tells her to stop maybe she will listen. What makes the cops wishes law?

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