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Who said... - 10/2/2014 3:56:57 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Status: offline 		"Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle."

-- ????

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RE: Who said... - 10/2/2014 7:35:32 PM   
Aylee


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Status: offline 		Gandhi. Why?

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RE: Who said... - 10/2/2014 8:13:57 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		Wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, commerce without morality and politics without principle are all quite true. We can do without those things.

Knowledge without character and science without humanity are essentially the same thing but however you want to word it, we can do without them as well.

As for worship without sacrifice, I must disagree. Sacrifice what, exactly? What does God, or whatever the hell it is you are worshiping, want you to sacrifice? Your time? Your labor? These might be good ways to help your fellow humans. What about your goat? Or your neighbor? Far to many people throughout history (and continuing into the present day) have chosen that course to make the whole idea of religion untrustworthy. I think we'd be better off without religion altogether. Humanity has enough stupid ways of fucking each other over. We can afford to ditch one.

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RE: Who said... - 10/2/2014 9:08:59 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

As for worship without sacrifice, I must disagree. Sacrifice what, exactly?

Your hubris, the conceit that you "know" things you don't really know and can't know.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/2/2014 9:21:53 PM >

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 5:19:07 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Your hubris, the conceit that you "know" things you don't really know and can't know.




Give me a fucking break!

Hubris and conceit are the primary ingredients of religion. You can't have a religion without them. Despite all evidence to the contrary, religious believers "know" that there is an invisible magic man living in the sky. They "know" the earth is only six thousand years old. They "know" that the earth and all life was created in only six days. They "know" that their god hates fags. They "know" that their god wants them to behead infidels. It is impossible to be religious without arrogant presumption.

On the contrary, to walk away from the nonsense that is religion, to embrace reality, is what requires humility. To explore the questions of life, the universe and everything, one must first have the courage to say "I don't know." The religious person, in their hubris and conceit "knows" that they only have to consult their holy book in order to get the "right" answer.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 6:13:14 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

"Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle."

-- ????


Do you agree with Gandhi that these "Seven Blunders" lead to violence?

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 6:39:40 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Your hubris, the conceit that you "know" things you don't really know and can't know.




Give me a fucking break!

Hubris and conceit are the primary ingredients of religion. You can't have a religion without them. Despite all evidence to the contrary, religious believers "know" that there is an invisible magic man living in the sky. They "know" the earth is only six thousand years old. They "know" that the earth and all life was created in only six days. They "know" that their god hates fags. They "know" that their god wants them to behead infidels. It is impossible to be religious without arrogant presumption.

On the contrary, to walk away from the nonsense that is religion, to embrace reality, is what requires humility. To explore the questions of life, the universe and everything, one must first have the courage to say "I don't know." The religious person, in their hubris and conceit "knows" that they only have to consult their holy book in order to get the "right" answer.


I tend to agree with you, although people have been known to worship other things besides religion or "god."

But even if someone does worship "God" and purports to believe in and follow the edicts and commandments handed down by "God," then the "sacrifice" might actually be having to do (or not do) the things they ostensibly believe "God" wants them to do (or not do). If "God" wants his/her worshipers to sacrifice violence and vow to never harm another human being, then those who actually do commit acts of violence are those refusing to make that sacrifice.

If "God" says "love thine enemies" or "turn the other cheek," and people who claim to worship "God" refuse to do that, then they fucked up - even according to their own religious scriptures and holy books. If they refuse to make that sacrifice, then their worship is meaningless, along with any other minor "sacrifices" they might make.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 8:37:49 AM   
dcnovice


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I think these verses may capture what Gandhi meant:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
HOSEA 6:6

Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of injustice,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover them,
and not to hide yourself from your own kin?
ISAIAH 58:6-7

To me, one of the most powerful examples of Godly sacrifice comes in The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom. It's the firsthand story of a devout Dutch family that sheltered Jews during the occupation--and paid the price for it.


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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 8:53:47 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Despite all evidence to the contrary, religious believers "know" that there is an invisible magic man living in the sky. They "know" the earth is only six thousand years old. They "know" that the earth and all life was created in only six days. They "know" that their god hates fags. They "know" that their god wants them to behead infidels.

Those are some broad brushstrokes, Marc.

In half a century of churchly life, I've yet to encounter anyone who "knows" that Earth was created in six days. But I have met lots of folks, including the Catholic priest who taught us all about evolution in AP Bio, who strive to harmonize the metaphorical insights of Genesis and the exciting discoveries of science.

And I've been to several blessings of gay unions, including a legal wedding, at the Episcopal church that's become my adult spiritual home. Not to mention a spirited celebration at the National Cathedral when the Supreme Court slashed DOMA. So we don't all "know" that God hates fags.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:20:44 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

"Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle."

Your post seem to approve of all of the above.



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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 11:19:35 AM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		I'm talking about the true believers, not the people who don't really believe but just go through the motions out of tradition.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 11:55:16 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

hubris, the conceit that you "know" things you don't really know...

Hubris and conceit are the primary ingredients of religion. You can't have a religion without them...

Obviously you are a case in point.

K.


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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 12:37:08 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Despite all evidence to the contrary, religious believers "know" that there is an invisible magic man living in the sky. They "know" the earth is only six thousand years old. They "know" that the earth and all life was created in only six days. They "know" that their god hates fags. They "know" that their god wants them to behead infidels.

Those are some broad brushstrokes, Marc.

In half a century of churchly life, I've yet to encounter anyone who "knows" that Earth was created in six days. But I have met lots of folks, including the Catholic priest who taught us all about evolution in AP Bio, who strive to harmonize the metaphorical insights of Genesis and the exciting discoveries of science.

And I've been to several blessings of gay unions, including a legal wedding, at the Episcopal church that's become my adult spiritual home. Not to mention a spirited celebration at the National Cathedral when the Supreme Court slashed DOMA. So we don't all "know" that God hates fags.


Yet he gets all riled up when people do the same things to muslims. I would love to hear the logic behind that.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 12:53:04 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Yet he gets all riled up when people do the same things to muslims. I would love to hear the logic behind that.


What are you talking about? You're not making any sense. Islam is a religion and therefore included. What exactly are people doing to Muslims that I get riled up over?

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 4:00:49 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I'm talking about the true believers, not the people who don't really believe but just go through the motions out of tradition.

You seem to equate "true believer" with "fundamentalist/literalist."

Isaac Bashevis Singer came closer to my own experience: "Doubt is part of all religion. All the religious thinkers were doubters."

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 4:49:13 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You seem to equate "true believer" with "fundamentalist/literalist."


I do. I tend to look upon the what constitutes a true believer and a false believer in the opposite way society tends to. Take Christians for example. Most people would say that the Phelps clan with their "God hates fags" signs are NOT real Christians while the Episcopalian Priest who marries a gay couple is. This is nothing more than a sop to the feelings of those who can't let go of the labels they're used to. But it is the Phelps clan who adhere more closely to the Bible and therefore deserve the label Christians (the Episcopalians are just atheists hedging their bets). Same thing with Muslims. The Muslims who are busy beheading people are the ones practicing their religion according to their holy writings, not the peaceful ones . . . they could switch their label to Christian or Hindu and essentially be the same people. Sure, I'll sometimes use the words "Christians" or "Muslims" in the general sense to refer to anyone who calls their self such but the people just going through the motions aren't the ones who worry me . . . the ones who honestly believe their "holy" books are.

quote:

Isaac Bashevis Singer came closer to my own experience: "Doubt is part of all religion. All the religious thinkers were doubters."


That sounds to me like a rationalization for believing some parts of a religion and not others because someone is just used calling their self a Christian, or a Muslim or whatever. Doubt is incompatible with religion because the whole point of religion is to remove all doubt about what is true and what is false (AKA sin, heresy, blasphemy, etc). Religion is a claim to a monopoly on the truth, which is the defining characteristic of any ideology, religious or secular. Doubt is the defining characteristic of a philosophy.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 5:49:29 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Any chance there might be a bit of--oh, I don't know--arrogant presumption in deciding that total strangers aren't true believers because they approach religion differently than you think they ought to?

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 5:55:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Doubt is incompatible with religion

That contradicts the real-life experience of just about any religious person I've ever known, not to mention one of the Apostles.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 5:56:16 PM   
Edwynn


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Those who read the same book interpret it differently (whether religious tome or secular novel). But you consider those who hold to the most literal interpretation possible as "true believers" whereas people who stray from the most literal reading are "just going through the motions." The vast majority of "true believers" I've come across in life, even many 'devout' practitioners, do not read the books as to take them literally.

However convenient to your purpose that particular stringent rule may be, that is/was quite arguably not even the intention of the original authors and editors and scriptors, in every case. Whatever the religious volume, there were many authors in every case, each with different approach and different purpose.

And this excluding the fact that there are many who believe in God devoutly with out adhering to any established religion or even relying on the bible etc. at all. I know what is meant by most about many church-goers just "going through the motions," but then your strict interpretation is quite different than most people's.

There are non-judeo-christian-islamic believers, that is. Witness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHQdwOs8XHQ




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 10/3/2014 6:08:32 PM >

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 7:03:21 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Any chance there might be a bit of--oh, I don't know--arrogant presumption in deciding that total strangers aren't true believers because they approach religion differently than you think they ought to?


No because these are just the labels I am applying to separate the dangerous ones from the merely amusing ones. You can apply your own labels if you want to but the underlying facts don't change. There is no god and evoking a god to justify an immoral act (weather is be denying gay people their rights or beheading non-believers) is itself an immoral act. I see no reason why we have to pay lips service to religions be it to comfort ourselves or out of habit. If people want to then that's their business. Like I said, I'm not really worried about the amusing ones, just the dangerous ones.

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