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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 7:11:03 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

That contradicts the real-life experience of just about any religious person I've ever known, not to mention one of the Apostles.


I'm not saying people can't have doubts about their religion. I'm saying that if you have doubts then you are not a true believer. The whole point of religion is to have no doubts . . . to believe despite and evidence to the contrary. Personally, I wish people would have more doubts in their religions. If the human race chucked religion altogether it would be one less thing to kill each other over.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 7:15:14 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I generally try to avoid getting personal, but I can't help chuckling over your being infinitely more dogmatic than anyone I've ever heard in church.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 7:25:27 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I'm saying that if you have doubts then you are not a true believer.


Even the most sophisticated believers sometimes believe that the saints enjoyed a stress-free spiritual life — suffering little personal doubt. For many saints this is accurate: St. Francis de Sales, the 17th-century author of “An Introduction to the Devout Life,” said that he never went more than 15 minutes without being aware of God’s presence. Yet the opposite experience is so common it even has a name. St. John of the Cross, the Spanish mystic, labeled it the “dark night,” the time when a person feels completely abandoned by God, and which can lead even ardent believers to doubt God’s existence.

During her final illness, St. Thérèse of Lisieux, the 19th-century French Carmelite nun who is now widely revered as “The Little Flower,” faced a similar trial, which seemed to center on doubts about whether anything awaited her after death. “If you only knew what darkness I am plunged into,” she said to the sisters in her convent. But Mother Teresa’s “dark night” was of a different magnitude, lasting for decades. It is almost unparalleled in the lives of the saints.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/opinion/29martin.html?_r=0


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 8:49:30 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I generally try to avoid getting personal, but I can't help chuckling over your being infinitely more dogmatic than anyone I've ever heard in church.


Fuck dogmatism! You have completely misjudged me. You're not the first and I doubt you will be the last. I hate absolutism. If you never understand anything else about me, understand this: I FUCKING HATE ABSOLUTISM. Do not confuse absolutism with certainty. I can be certain about something while still being open to doubt about it should contradicting evidence come along. Absolutism is the unwavering belief that one's ideology is NEVER wrong. It has been the cause of far too much misery throughout human history and continues even as I write this. Dogmatism is what compels some individuals to behead others for believing in the wrong god. Debating the merits of religion on a message board is not dogmatism. Please don't compare me with those evil mother fucking shitheads again.

Ultimately I do not care about labels. I don't care if somebody wants to call themselves a Christian or not depending upon this or that criteria. Labels are an unfortunate necessity and the human race spends far too much time arguing over them. You can find endless arguments all over the internet of people screaming over the "true" meaning of conservative or liberal or Christian or Muslim, etc, etc, etc. We do this of course because the power to label something is the power to define "reality."

I have my own labels to define my own reality as I see it. If you or anyone else don't like my labels, I don't really care, they are only tools. But by focusing on the labels you are continually missing the main point which is this: people who believe they have a monopoly on the truth are dangerous. The true believers (the absolutists) of any ideology, whether it be secular or religious, are dangerous. Here in America the religious true believers (absolutists) are dangerous to human rights (opposing gay marriage and reproductive rights) and science education. In the middle east they are dangerous to life and limb.

You don't hold rank with such people. Fair enough. I never said you did. I get that you're insulted at the notion you're not a true believer but given that I don't rank you among such - it is actually a compliment. If you want to call yourself and others true believers, go right ahead. I'll know what you mean (believe it or not, I am capable of entertaining more than one definition for a word or a phrase at a time) and ultimately I don't really care what you or anyone else calls themselves. It is the concepts behind the labels, not the labels themselves, that matter.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 8:56:21 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Dogmatism is the product of the weak mind. No thinking necessary! Just check with the Holy Scripture or the Dear Leader or whatever to find the "Truth." Dogmatism absolves you of all moral responsibility. God or Dear Leader or whatever says it's okay to kill the infidels or traitors or whoever. Dogmatism makes the immoral, moral and the heinous, righteous.

Fuck dogmatism!

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:03:51 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Dogmatism is the mentality of the slave. I do not, of course, mean the fun, consensual, BDSM "slave." I mean the truly craven individual who gives up independent thought in exchange for the illusion of certainty and the delusion of control.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:08:06 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Dogmatism is the willing self-obliteration of the self.

Fuck that shit!

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:25:18 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not certain if consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds (though I'm inclined to suspect that it is) but I am quite certain that dogmatism is the gatekeeper of the frightened mind.

Fuck dogmatism.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:28:26 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."

- Ralphy boy

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:31:24 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		"I don't like doggism. It gives me owies."






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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:35:10 PM   
Kirata


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This business of talking to yourself is starting to remind me of someone.

K.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:47:20 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Freedom Cat will fight the evil forces of dogmatism.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 9:52:33 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		What're you looking at?






Ain't ya ever seen a guy spend a Friday night drinking Yukon Jack and posting on a BDSM message board before?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 10/3/2014 9:54:01 PM >

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:09:22 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Your hubris, the conceit that you "know" things you don't really know and can't know.




Give me a fucking break!

Hubris and conceit are the primary ingredients of religion. You can't have a religion without them. Despite all evidence to the contrary, religious believers "know" that there is an invisible magic man living in the sky. They "know" the earth is only six thousand years old. They "know" that the earth and all life was created in only six days. They "know" that their god hates fags. They "know" that their god wants them to behead infidels. It is impossible to be religious without arrogant presumption.

On the contrary, to walk away from the nonsense that is religion, to embrace reality, is what requires humility. To explore the questions of life, the universe and everything, one must first have the courage to say "I don't know." The religious person, in their hubris and conceit "knows" that they only have to consult their holy book in order to get the "right" answer.

You asked what it means. You were informed. Now you're going all ape shit because you don't like what it means.

Case in point indeed.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:10:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."

- Ralphy boy

Key adjective there is "foolish." Not all consistency. A foolish consistency.

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RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:12:14 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I generally try to avoid getting personal, but I can't help chuckling over your being infinitely more dogmatic than anyone I've ever heard in church.

I was thinking the same thing.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:13:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

What're you looking at?






Ain't ya ever seen a guy spend a Friday night drinking Yukon Jack and posting on a BDSM message board before?

I think we may have solved the mystery.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:21:53 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

You asked what it means. You were informed. Now you're going all ape shit because you don't like what it means.

Case in point indeed.


Disagreement is not going ape shit. It is disagreement.

So what the fuck exactly is your case in point?



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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:23:58 PM   
Marc2b


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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Key adjective there is "foolish." Not all consistency. A foolish consistency.


Very good. I'm glad you spotted that. I hold out hope for you. Slim, but there.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Who said... - 10/3/2014 10:25:32 PM   
Marc2b


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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

I was thinking the same thing.


That doesn't surprise me. It surprised me coming from DC because he's usually thoughtful but coming from you it is no surprise at all.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 40
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