RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm?

RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (Full Version)

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 9:55:02 AM)
Seeing as you can't work the quote system - I fixed it for you... quote: ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305 quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Shooting is just not necessary at all, in any situation. Period. Tell that to the millions of victims of violent crime in this country. So... scrap guns in public!! Gun problem solved!! [:D] But oh no... that would take away your rights... can't have that can we?! quote: ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305 quote: he calls you 'a nutter' - his words, not mine. And, likewise, I find people who are unwilling to defend themselves (thus perpetuating the victim mentality in this country) to be 'nutters'... We do defend ourselves and often very efficiently. Just not with guns... Even by people who do own guns in this country.

darkwanderer3305 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 10:31:19 AM)
Thanks for the assist. No, I'm not particularly acquainted with the quote system. As for my rights - the only right I'm concerned with is the right to live free from fear and aggression caused by self-entitled assclowns who think they can take away my life, my family's lives and our property. Whether it is with a gun, hand grenade, or a good, old-fashioned beating with a stick - I don't care. The point is that I have the right to own and use a gun. And, as the most efficient method of deterrence and security, I would choose to use that particular weapon to effect the desired means. I understand the concept that there are other methods, and that other countries use such methods to varying degrees of success.. However, in this country, I still have the choice and I choose 'shoot to kill' to protect myself and my family. And, just because you want to scrap guns in public, doesn't mean that all of the armed criminals here are going to go along with that plan. The fact is - if it comes down to lawful citizens dying, or, armed thugs dying - I think the thugs should go first in order to thin out the gene pool so maybe one day we won't need any weapons...

BamaD -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 10:35:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I stated, I didn't boast. I sensed a note of pride in your response rather than just a statement. That makes it a boast in my book. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If anything it was a complaint that I had to take such action. But there is no way you will accept that because nothing is important enough to change your mind. Nothing in this world is important enough to even contemplate taking another person's life unless you are a deranged lunatic. Unfortunately, it is so easily achieved when using a gun as opposed to anything else. And your stance is - shoot to kill, not disarm or injure.... kill. And don't say it isn't because you said that in this thread a few posts ago. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I am glad you escaped harm but the various people who pointed this out are right, you would be arrested for that here as surely as if you walked down the street with a shotgun on your shoulder. Yep. And I agree with that sentiment entirely... Surprisingly for you. But, I don't carry it around with me all the time. Unlike you, who seem to want/like to carry your firearm with you in public. And unlike you I don't believe in open carry. You either carry always or not at all, unless you can tell me how to know when and where I will need it, of course if I know that (unless it is that they are coming after me of course) I simple won't go there. You never did tell me how your +5 holy avenger 2x4 would be of any use against 6 guys with baseball bats, an incident that occurred to someone else just doing their job near my house. I suspect it is because your only answers are surrender and count on their good will or hope you can outrun them. Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too?

BamaD -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:14:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305 perhaps, but, a prison sentence for me, while my family is safe - AND - that particular criminal is dead and unable to harm or threaten anyone else is a scenario I can live with... Fortunately, in America, you do not get a prison sentence for a justifiable act of self/family defense... I know. Maybe they should start handing out sentences for killing other people. Just about most other places, killing someone, regardless of the situation, is considered a homicide. You'd need a damned good reason to escape a prison sentence; and no, self defense isn't good enough anywhere else. And if you did get a jail sentence (probably 10+ years), what happens if your family are put in the same situation again?? You wouldn't be there to 'defend' them with your gun, you'd be in jail. ETA: If you used something else other than a gun, chances are that he would go to jail and you would be free to live with your family. That is why I consider firearms to be dangerous in the hands of the general populace. Maybe not so much owning one (because we also own and use guns over here); just being allowed to have them in public is my main concern - too convenient to kill someone, even if by accident. If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical.

crazyml -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:35:56 AM)
Ooh. .. I haven't read this story... When did you run off a drug dealer?

BamaD -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:43:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Ooh. .. I haven't read this story... When did you run off a drug dealer? Most recently about 3 years ago. He tried sneaking up on me while I was standing on my porch. When I demanded an explanation he told me he was delivering grass to me. Then he insisted I was the guy he was looking for. He used each cycle of talk to work his way in closer to me. When he had gotten within about four feet I placed my hand on my gun, and told him to get off my property and never come back. He left at a high rate of speed with his hands in the air yelling that he didn't mean any harm. Until I touched my firearm he ignore being told to leave and used the cover to move in on me. Haven't had an incident since.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:48:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too? I don't deny that... and yes, I did. He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife. Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger?? If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary.

crazyml -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:49:20 AM)
I am pretty sure you're wrong about that. DUHHHHH

thompsonx -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:49:27 AM)
ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305 As for my rights - the only right I'm concerned with is the right to live free from fear and aggression caused by self-entitled assclowns who think they can take away my life, my family's lives and our property. Whether it is with a gun, hand grenade, or a good, old-fashioned beating with a stick - I don't care. So you are currently living in iraq of afghanistan? The point is that I have the right to own and use a gun. You also have a right to take a shit[8\|] And, as the most efficient method of deterrence and security, I would choose to use that particular weapon to effect the desired means. What unmitigated nonsense. If that were true there would be no walls, fences, or barb wire in prisons. If just guards with their guns were the most efficient. I understand the concept that there are other methods, and that other countries use such methods to varying degrees of success.. The number of prison escapes seems to indicate that the degrees of success are pretty high. However, in this country, I still have the choice and I choose 'shoot to kill' to protect myself and my family. Actually you do not...at least not in the country I live in. A few keystrokes to google land could acquaint you with how many go to prison for doing what you advocate. The fact is - if it comes down to lawful citizens dying, or, armed thugs dying - I think the thugs should go first in order to thin out the gene pool so maybe one day we won't need any weapons... Google could also acquaint you with a pdf load of speeches in parliment declaring george, john and tommy as thugs that needed to be removed from the gene pool.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:51:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical. Yes, you would go to jail for using 'excessive force'. Death imposed upon a fellow human usually demands (and gets) a jail sentence... except in the US.

thompsonx -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:51:58 AM)
ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305 While I agree that it would be most satisfying to bust up some punk ass who is threatening my family with a 2x4, lead pipe, baseball bat, or (insert your favorite impact weapon here); a gun prevents the unlikely scenario that the threat would win that physical confrontation. Not according to bamma if they are closer than about 20'/ The gun is the final word in such a confrontation. It ensures my family's safety, my safety, and the security of my home. Only if you win...sometimes the "bad guys" shoot back[8\|]

subrosaDom -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:52:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx ORIGINAL: darkwanderer3305 As for my rights - the only right I'm concerned with is the right to live free from fear and aggression caused by self-entitled assclowns who think they can take away my life, my family's lives and our property. Whether it is with a gun, hand grenade, or a good, old-fashioned beating with a stick - I don't care. So you are currently living in iraq of afghanistan? The point is that I have the right to own and use a gun. You also have a right to take a shit[8\|] And, as the most efficient method of deterrence and security, I would choose to use that particular weapon to effect the desired means. What unmitigated nonsense. If that were true there would be no walls, fences, or barb wire in prisons. If just guards with their guns were the most efficient. Are you suggesting that, rather than buying a gun, we each make our houses into fortresses, with walls, fences and barbed wire? More so, when we go outside our house, should we walk about in barbed wire cages on wheels, so as to ensure our safety?

thompsonx -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:54:09 AM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD I agree with this in principal. However the moment I reached for my gun the only target I had were backs. The law here frowns on shooting people in the back, not the cops, but the law. And I don't have a nearby woods to hide the bodies, although a dispatcher did offer to loan me their backco, in jest, I think. Since coppers in your area have a historical record of using a back-hoe to "secure" evidence why would you think it was in jest?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:56:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom Are you suggesting that, rather than buying a gun, we each make our houses into fortresses, with walls, fences and barbed wire? More so, when we go outside our house, should we walk about in barbed wire cages on wheels, so as to ensure our safety? If everyone followed the example of not buying a gun... there wouldn't be any on the streets and such measures would not be necessary.

subrosaDom -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 11:56:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical. Yes, you would go to jail for using 'excessive force'. Death imposed upon a fellow human usually demands (and gets) a jail sentence... except in the US. Excessive force to prevent you or your family from being killed, raped or tortured? Really? So in the middle of that, one should calmly step back, consider all the options and carefully shoot the animal in the knee. Right. This is especially effective when the animal is on PCP and insensate to pain. Now, you're right, in the UK, what you describe can happen. And that is an indictment of human rights, rights of the innocent, in and of itself.

subrosaDom -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 12:00:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If you +5 holy avenger 2x4 opens an artery or drive a rib into a lung and kills him you should go to jail for defending yourself? Talk about illogical. Yes, you would go to jail for using 'excessive force'. Death imposed upon a fellow human usually demands (and gets) a jail sentence... except in the US. I would bet, that if you were to exclude military service, the total number of people killed by us gun advocates on here is likely zero. The total number of people shot is also likely very low, perhaps zero. Why? Because we defend ourselves. We don't go out looking for trouble. Personally, the number of people that I've killed or injured through ANY means is zero. And I hope it stays that way. But I'm not Pollyanna. However, if you are, then you should indeed post a "gun-free, weapon-free" sign on your house and advertise it in the newspapers.

BamaD -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 12:08:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too? I don't deny that... and yes, I did. He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife. Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger?? If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary. You tell me what he was up to. Just passing the time of day? If so why did he try to sneak up on me? Not a sign of good will is it? I had already, as you proclaimed that you knew I wouldn't do, told him to get off my property. He was having none of that.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 12:15:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrosaDom Excessive force to prevent you or your family from being killed, raped or tortured? Really? So in the middle of that, one should calmly step back, consider all the options and carefully shoot the animal in the knee. Right. This is especially effective when the animal is on PCP and insensate to pain. Now, you're right, in the UK, what you describe can happen. And that is an indictment of human rights, rights of the innocent, in and of itself. Any force that is deemed 'excessive' by the police (or a court of law), in that the amount of harm (or death) inflicted upon an assailant is disproportional to the perceived or actual threat, then yes, you would receive a jail sentence. And yes, you should consider your options prior to delivering any harm. And no, that doesn't necessarily mean to step back either. The point being, you are responsible for your actions regardless of the circumstances and most laws (outside of the US) would make sure you are fully accountable for whatever action you take. Unfortunately, many people in the US are using a very lax interpretation of the term "imminent" to make a defense and get away with what I consider to be murder, or manslaughter at the very least. To use Bama's example of his drug dealer episode, 4ft away is still way too far to be thinking of using a gun. Unless that person was armed and pointing at you or otherwise charging at you with a weapon of some description, should anything have happened, Bama would have been jailed. If he had done that over here, the assailant could (and probably would) have sued him for pulling a gun and using threatening behaviour which would almost certainly carry a fine and a small amount of time at Her Majesty's pleasure as well as compensation payments to the other person. Close proximity is not an excuse for irresponsible behaviour at all.

BamaD -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 12:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too? I don't deny that... and yes, I did. He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife. Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger?? If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary. But waving around a 2x4 as you also suggested wouldn't have been. Why haven't you told me how your +5 holy avenger 2x4 is going to protect you from 6 guys with baseball bats, and don't give me any crap about making up situations because it happened very near my house.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Anyone agree that it is better to harm with any other weapon than to avoid violence with a firearm? (10/5/2014 12:17:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Oh yes since you brought up ancient history are you going to admit that when pressed you said it was better to send your stepson to the emergency room than for me to run off a drug dealer with no one being hurt, or are you going to lie about that too? I don't deny that... and yes, I did. He got hit by me because he was threatening to stab everyone with a very sharp steak knife. Was that drug dealer threatening you to the point where your life was in danger?? If not, then your use of a firearm in that instance was overkill and unnecessary. You tell me what he was up to. Just passing the time of day? If so why did he try to sneak up on me? Not a sign of good will is it? I had already, as you proclaimed that you knew I wouldn't do, told him to get off my property. He was having none of that. But... you didn't have to use a gun to do it. That was my point. It seemed he wasn't threatening you... he just got a little closer. That in itself is not an excuse to threaten use of a gun. That's just a paranoid manic response.

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