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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/28/2014 9:23:10 PM   
MasterDoc1


Posts: 173
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		There ARE other political parties. As noted, it's just that the media doesn't want you to think of them.
I've voted for president 10 times (just added it up) and haven't voted for a Republican or a Democrat ONCE.
And in the most recent election I had the happy privilege of voting for the best presidential candidate I've seen in my lifetime.
And 1,275,922 other Americans voted the same way.

< Message edited by MasterDoc1 -- 10/28/2014 9:27:08 PM >

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 12:07:59 AM   
Extravagasm


Posts: 230
Joined: 9/22/2004
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quote:

MasterDoc1: There ARE other political parties. As noted, it's just that the media doesn't want you to think of them. I've voted for president 10 times (just added it up) and haven't voted for a Republican or a Democrat ONCE. And in the most recent election I had the happy privilege of voting for the best presidential candidate I've seen in my lifetime.
And 1,275,922 other Americans voted the same way.
Well said and absolutely correct. That candidate also phrased it, that the US shouldn't have tangled in Iraq. Not: that the Republicans or Democrats shouldn't.

When Central Americans look back at the Spanish tyrants who mutilated them, they think Spain, not a particular Spanish dynasty. When the Native Americans look back at being ethnic cleansed, they don't name political parties. When Africans were dragged across the middle passages, they don't look back at politics. Hawaiians don't muse which party sent the US Marines to overpower their Queen. When US assassinated Iran's 1940s President to install the tyrannical Oil Shah, Iranians don't fuss whether Ike was Republican or Teddy Roosevelt's grandson was Democrat or his clandestine operation was party-neutral. The Japanese don't think just Truman Democrats approved atomic weapons of mass destruction on whole civilian populations. They think, US people do. Even the rare case of VietNamese, curiously seem to have forgiven us for overrunning them; they don't just forgive Ike and Kennedy, they forgive all the US.

Party bickering about who historically started what, is the way Americans shirk off responsibility for colossal US deeds and misdeeds. That is the way I put it.

Here the way Osama bin Ladin put it: In the US, dropping the Atomic bomb on civilians is not called a shameful travesty. Americans call it a debatable issue. (Most of us are in denial of this observation.) Like Woodrow Wilson's allowance for Turkey killing Armenian civilians by the boxcar, not being genocide. (A template, pointed to and followed by Hitler.)
You can be sure those who came after bin Ladin are now making the same argument about torture not being called shameful travesty by Americans anymore, just a debatable issue.

POINT IS if you want to improve the US, we have to improve standing US policy. Not improve the political parties. Because they each follow it. Especially improve standing US policy on clandestine interventions. Perhaps most interventions. It is the policy tolerances of US citizens that permits status quo. This means getting as fired up about standing US policy, as we now do, about meaningless Presidential elections.

This is the part where people disinterested in improvement, will clamor "Show me a better country".

Give me a break. For almost a half a century the US National Security Estimate has included Strategic Oil Resources, as an act of war issue. Saddam was eliminated because he was no longer committed to trading oil in US dollars. US is one of very few countries whose military is authorized to make unprovoked First-Strike Nuclear attacks. US is one of only two nations refusing to sign international treaties against land mines. Is this the way longstanding US policy always has to be?

< Message edited by Extravagasm -- 10/29/2014 12:23:21 AM >

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 12:45:22 AM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Hear !!! Hear !!! .................and I bet THAT causes a furor in some narrow minded quarters.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 5:46:55 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

Well said and absolutely correct. That candidate also phrased it, that the US shouldn't have tangled in Iraq. Not: that the Republicans or Democrats shouldn't.

When Central Americans look back at the Spanish tyrants who mutilated them, they think Spain, not a particular Spanish dynasty. When the Native Americans look back at being ethnic cleansed, they don't name political parties. When Africans were dragged across the middle passages, they don't look back at politics. Hawaiians don't muse which party sent the US Marines to overpower their Queen. When US assassinated Iran's 1940s President to install the tyrannical Oil Shah, Iranians don't fuss whether Ike was Republican or Teddy Roosevelt's grandson was Democrat or his clandestine operation was party-neutral. The Japanese don't think just Truman Democrats approved atomic weapons of mass destruction on whole civilian populations. They think, US people do. Even the rare case of VietNamese, curiously seem to have forgiven us for overrunning them; they don't just forgive Ike and Kennedy, they forgive all the US.

Party bickering about who historically started what, is the way Americans shirk off responsibility for colossal US deeds and misdeeds. That is the way I put it.

Here the way Osama bin Ladin put it: In the US, dropping the Atomic bomb on civilians is not called a shameful travesty. Americans call it a debatable issue. (Most of us are in denial of this observation.) Like Woodrow Wilson's allowance for Turkey killing Armenian civilians by the boxcar, not being genocide. (A template, pointed to and followed by Hitler.)
You can be sure those who came after bin Ladin are now making the same argument about torture not being called shameful travesty by Americans anymore, just a debatable issue.

POINT IS if you want to improve the US, we have to improve standing US policy. Not improve the political parties. Because they each follow it. Especially improve standing US policy on clandestine interventions. Perhaps most interventions. It is the policy tolerances of US citizens that permits status quo. This means getting as fired up about standing US policy, as we now do, about meaningless Presidential elections.

This is the part where people disinterested in improvement, will clamor "Show me a better country".

Give me a break. For almost a half a century the US National Security Estimate has included Strategic Oil Resources, as an act of war issue. Saddam was eliminated because he was no longer committed to trading oil in US dollars. US is one of very few countries whose military is authorized to make unprovoked First-Strike Nuclear attacks. US is one of only two nations refusing to sign international treaties against land mines. Is this the way longstanding US policy always has to be?


Great post, It's refreshing to read something that at least blames BOTH parties for most of what happens around the globe.


< Message edited by Marini -- 10/29/2014 5:47:41 PM >

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 6:10:43 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Great post, It's refreshing to read something that at least blames BOTH parties for most of what happens around the globe.



We have such a different way of looking at things... to me it is not the parties fault... It is ours. Unless my memory is different from yours the majority of Americans were behind the actions taken by our government in every war.

I also don't know how old you are but I can tell you in my life there have always been party differences... it is just the way of Democracy's

Butch

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 6:16:44 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		Butch, we can agree to view many issues differently.
Vive la difference.

I have not been happy with a lot of what has been going on in this country for many years.
We took what was a great country, and it is going downhill.

We certainly don't have to agree, but I see this country declining, to the point it might be unrecognizable before I leave this earth.
**Unrecognizable in NOT a good way.**


< Message edited by Marini -- 10/29/2014 6:20:15 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 6:41:17 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I agree we have been declining but it is more the rest of the world rising rather than ineffectiveness of our political parties that are at fault. It is our industrial might that is the buttress of our strength. The rest of the world copied our system and their increasing industry is draining our power.

Our military might remains but without industry to back it up in a major war it is declining as well. This is just the way of the world. We will always be a major power if nothing else because of our vast land area and natural resources. But the glory days as the preeminent power on earth will soon be over. We had better get used to this idea.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 6:48:09 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I totally disagree as to how/and why we are spiraling downhill.
I don't expect you to bring the greedy corporate soulless bastards, rampant unbridled outsourcing, or anything similar into the equation.

I am not going to start that debate here.

How low are we going to go?
3rd world status?

< Message edited by Marini -- 10/29/2014 6:57:16 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 6:55:40 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

The question is funny, because there are far more than 2 political parties in the USA. It's just that the mainstream media (and the politicians themselves) have tricked most people into forgetting that.



This is one problem.

quote:

Just don't vote. Voting gives the broken system power. Your vote is consent to continue to abuse you.
If voting could change anything, they wouldn't let us vote. Period.


If you do not vote, you are part of the problem, definitely not part of the solution. By not voting, you are simply perpetuating the very system you are railing against. Quite frankly, if more people voted, we might well see change for the better. Not voting gives someone else the power to speak for you and if even 80% of the people would vote, we might well have seen the rise of a viable third party.

In the most recent election, when I went to vote I was one of the last through the door. Only about 300 people had bothered to get out and vote which meant, that 300 people spoke for my district and the rest have to put up with whatever those 300 people did. Take that logic to the National level and you now understand why the system has problems, because we allowed government to get into the condition it is in right now.

What the "two party system" has done, and has done with phenomenal success is to polarize voters to one extreme or the other. It is keeping the people divided, and allowing the politicians to get away with murder. Just read some threads in this section of the forums and it doesn't take long to find out that no one is talking rationally about solutions, they are just bitching about the problems. It has been a rare thing that I have seen down in this section where people can meet in the middle about something, and that is what our politicians are doing too, they are trying to win something for their party while they are assfucking the people. If you are a public servant and you go home at the end of the day not being able to say how you helped the people, then you have failed as a public servant. There is a reason "United We Stand" is one of our founding principles, when we are united, we have strength, when we are divided and fighting amongst ourselves, the government can get away with almost anything... and it has.

So, keep silent, but if you do, you forfeit the right to bitch about anything that happens in the country.


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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 7:00:19 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

How low are we going to go?
3rd world status?


Maybe... but we sure will have plenty of guns...

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 7:01:03 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

How low are we going to go?
3rd world status?


Maybe... but we sure will have plenty of guns...

Butch


Guns, pot and drugs................


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 7:22:05 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Well said

(in reply to Extravagasm)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 7:29:23 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Gauge

If you do not vote, you are part of the problem, definitely not part of the solution.

Why do you think you can win by playing in a fixed game?




By not voting, you are simply perpetuating the very system you are railing against. Quite frankly, if more people voted, we might well see change for the better. Not voting gives someone else the power to speak for you and if even 80% of the people would vote, we might well have seen the rise of a viable third party.

We are allowed to vote for who they tell us we may vote for...not any different than russia,china,cuba,viet nam. They, however, are honest enough to tell you so.



So, keep silent, but if you do, you forfeit the right to bitch about anything that happens in the country.

I have not forfeited anything by not playing in a crooked game. I have not deluded myself into believing what ain't so.



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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 7:40:38 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We are allowed to vote for who they tell us we may vote for...not any different than russia,china,cuba,viet nam. They, however, are honest enough to tell you so.

Really? In the last five presidential elections, I voted for who I wanted, nobody told me who I could or couldn't vote for.

You're doing it wrong.

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 8:37:58 PM   
Edwynn


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So he misworded. Should have been spoken as "What was offered on the ballot" rather than "Tell us who to vote for," but then if I missed the point, I'll just stop here.

Except to say that "offering" John Edwards for anything other than for shoving off the edge of a cliff (which an abundance of us knew to be the best thing even long before that) told at least some of us all we needed to know about the process.

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 9:04:42 PM   
Edwynn


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I mean, it's not like everybody who wanted to rid the country of the historical disaster embarrassment of a president who completely blew up the ME situation for decades to come weren't hell bent on ridding the government of anybody who had anything to do with that process and didn't want to put us back on track.

So then the (2004) Demo ticket gave them ...

Two guys who voted for the invasion.

Good to know that was a "win-win" for those that mattered, n'est-ce pas? Not for you, no, that wasn't the point.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 10/29/2014 10:01:15 PM >

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/29/2014 11:09:18 PM   
ItalianStallion


Posts: 32
Joined: 11/11/2005
Status: offline 		Libertarian here. Definitely sick of our Constitution being ovverun by both parties!

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/30/2014 9:22:12 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I totally disagree as to how/and why we are spiraling downhill.
I don't expect you to bring the greedy corporate soulless bastards, rampant unbridled outsourcing, or anything similar into the equation.

I am not going to start that debate here.

How low are we going to go?
3rd world status?


I think you're both correct to some extent. I agree with Butch's point that "we," as voters/consumers, chose our path whether we realized it or not. Maybe the voters were hoodwinked, tricked, manipulated by dark money, advertising/propaganda, etc. But in my observation, nobody ever really wants to admit that. Every voter wants to believe that he/she reached their viewpoint all on their own, without any manipulation or undue influence from others. Politicians are able to feed people's vanities and egos, and the public laps it up like milk served to kittens.

As far as how low we're going to go, that's also a tricky question. It's hard to compare with previous eras and historical empires which have fallen, since they didn't face the same kinds of issues that the world is facing now. It's a dangerous situation we're leading to if a nuclear-armed country destabilizes and declines to a level similar to that of the developing countries (aka "third world"). That, to me, is the best argument for wanting to keep things politically/economically stable in this country, but as you mentioned the greedy corporate soulless bastards, the thing that makes them the most dangerous is that they're so damn reckless and myopic.

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/30/2014 1:47:55 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
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From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		I am tired of both parties. After this upcoming election is over, I am going back to being an Independent of any political party. That's how I started when I first registered to vote many years ago. I only became a registered Democrat because here in Florida, one has to be a certain party to vote in the primary elections. I don't care about that anymore. The only election that really matters anyways is the General Election.

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RE: Anyone else tired of BOTH political parties? - 10/30/2014 4:41:21 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Is there anyone else that is really tired of BOTH political parites?


Oh yeah, the vast majority of the US.

Personally I'm hoping that the Republican party will continue killing itself off enough to make room for a viable 3rd party.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 40
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