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RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/30/2014 10:48:22 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
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Everyone "should". Everyone "can". Keep it simple, don't hyperanalyze it to death, lol.

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Post #: 21

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/30/2014 1:37:01 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

I was just having this conversation with a new sub who was asking advice. I told her that there are two very good reasons why subs should always approach.

1) Qualified, experienced Doms nearly always have plenty of potential playmates. Although they might welcome new ones, or something more permanent, they have no need to approach someone who may or may not be interested. The old saying "all of the good ones are taken" is true, only with BDSM, that doesn't mean they're unavailable. The flip side of that is that any Dom that approaches - especially if it's aggressively - is probably not a qualified and experienced Dom.

2) The act of approaching can almost be considered a submissive act. If a Dom is trying to impress the sub, then the whole relationship is already started with the wrong power balance - even before they've spoken to each other. The more the Dom tries to impress the sub, the worse it gets. Then once it's on - both people have a hell of a project ahead of them to get things back to the way they should be. When the sub approaches, the power balance feels right from the start - to both parties.

I was wondering what the other side of this debate might be. Are there any good reasons why Doms should approach subs, other than "that's how vanilla people do it"? Are there any other reasons why subs should be the ones showing interest first?

I can see and even understand the reasoning behind your statements, even if I don't agree with them completely.

Older, more experienced Dominants/submissives are going to be of the mind that if you want something, or someone, you should make that interest known. And that's for both sides of the kneel.

Yet, I have seen many newcomers who are being told that the submissive should not be assertive in showing their interest, that it's a turn off to Dominants.
Now, we all know that to be untrue. But these newcomers don't.

It's just one more reason why we advocate education and research, taking your time, and being responsible for your choices.

With that said, on a personal note:
I would not have approached my partner with an interest in a relationship. First, I was not looking. Second, I was happy alone, had been alone for a lot of years. And last, there are very few who are interested in what I am interested in.
So, I would never have approached him.

In addition, if I was not with him, I still would not approach another, even if I was interested. I prefer that the man do the chasing. But that is just a personal preference and not one that I would tell another.

Everyone has to do whatever works for them. You can get advice from others, but in the end, the decision and the responsibility for the decision has to be personal.

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(in reply to Code)

Post #: 22

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/30/2014 6:56:02 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Plus I could make a case that 'experienced' dominants are unlikely to be people I want to be in a relationship with. Any guy who can give a couple dozen references only has proved that he's flogged people a couple dozen times, or whatever topping skill he's learned. Repeating the same experience a dozen times doesn't mean you have twelve years experience when you're single for half of each year with a dozen six month long failed relationships.

He doesn't prove by this experience that he has communication and relationship skills.

I prefer a guy without that public experience who has had a twenty year relationship and who can be trusted to try to work problems out instead of moving on to the next partner rather than learn to solve problems.

The op seems to think dominant means NSA top, and for many of us, that's the last thing in the world we seek. Many of us seek relationships that are compatible on vanilla levels, not just kink. We seek healthy relationships, plain and simple. How we prefer to have sex or decide who gets control of the remote does not make a relationship into something totally new and different. Far from it.

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(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 23

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/30/2014 7:15:35 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

- What are the reasons, if any, why a sub should NOT be encouraged to make their presence known to a Dominant that he or she is interested in, if that Dom is not yet aware of them?
- Are there any other solid, logical, and explainable reasons why he or she should be encouraged to do so, beyond "not doing it is silly?"

Making her presence known to a dom? So you are simply talking about making her presence known to a dom, like simply, saying hi to a friend?

I've never had any issues doing that ever. If I like a dominant and think we would be suitable, I always make sure I am known to him, to see if he reciprocate interest, but if he doesn't, I move on.

I don't think a single soul here would tell a sub that she cannot go say hi to a dom. That she cannot say "Hi" first. That's just being friendly and making a friend.

(in reply to RockaRolla)

Post #: 24

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 7:10:27 AM

oddlots347

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/4/2011
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I have talked with subs who have the opinion they will not approach a Dom to do a scene and let them so to speak ask them. Then there are others who will approach a Dom and ask them to do a scene. Either way is is fine with me. If asked by a sub. I prefer for them to ask me. Not everyone knows that unless they have talked with me and it has gotten to that aspect in our conversation. That needs to be taken into consideration as well, if you know the sub or if they are new.

(in reply to RockaRolla)

Post #: 25

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 8:03:45 AM

GoddessManko

Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
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Speaking from a strictly online perspective, I say forget titles, if someone strikes your interest, go for it. Be proactive,it's OK. At a munch or something of that nature I would likely be a wallflower. I am an introvert by nature so unless I know someone there, I'm not gonna be that engaging, nor will I play with anyone. To be honest, I'd feel uncomfortable being around a group of strangers who probably all know each other. So I use online. Someone less introverted than me, I'd recommend a munch first and if they see someone there, regardless of title approach.
I know some Ds have protocols like eyes to the floor etc. I think that is fair to display you are a sub and respectfully approaching. Just to be sure you don't step on any toes.
Online subs contact me and that's fine, let me know you're out there. Or I contact subs, my subbie now I approached first right here on CS (thank you CS). Honestly I was shamelessly flirtatious and I think 3 emails in I was already making my intent known in a major way. He honestly was nice enough to not call me out for being so unabashed but I enjoyed our playful banter.
To this day talking to him never gets old, we are great together chemistry wise. If I hadn't taken that first step it just wouldn't have happened. Others have expressed interest but we're kind of committed to each other at this point. Just go for it, what's the worst that could happen?
Some men are just not the "proactive" types or they think they will come off as a creep or a pervert (makes sense).

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(in reply to oddlots347)

Post #: 26

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 8:21:56 AM

HeartAndSoul31

Posts: 148
Status: offline

I have always liked men to approach me. I like someone to make the first move. It seems more MANLY.

I think though if you have a big interest in someone, why not try first!!!? Worst case scenario is you get rejected but at least you tried.

< Message edited by HeartAndSoul31 -- 10/31/2014 8:23:36 AM >

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 27

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 11:51:07 AM

searching4mysir

Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

I've noticed that a lot of subs tend to expect that Doms will make the first move - obviously for the "To show that he's assertive" reasoning above. However in practice, those same subs always complain about all of the assertive idiots that keep accosting them, asking "Why don't the good ones ever introduce themselves".

There is a difference between assertive and aggressive and there is a difference between domineering and dominant. Often it isn't a problem of being assertive and dominant but of being aggressive and domineering.

quote:

- What are the reasons, if any, why a sub should NOT be encouraged to make their presence known to a Dominant that he or she is interested in, if that Dom is not yet aware of them?

I can't think of any unless the sub is cheating or knows that the dominant is cheating.

-----------------

Online, we don't have body language. If someone looks interesting and you are open to the potential of a new relationship/play partner, then not taking the chance to say hello means you risk losing out on an opportunity, regardless of the side of the kneel.

In my experience, I found that when I chased, I led the relationship. As a sub, that isn't the place for me. Luckily,I didn't need to approach my master. He approached me as a vanilla friend might. He showed me over time that he was a man of his word and that I could trust him enough to follow his lead. Over three years later and he has yet to make me question my decision in choosing to follow his lead.

_____________________________

No longer searching -- found my one and only right here on CM

(in reply to Code)

Post #: 28

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 1:38:34 PM

MsDDom

Posts: 368
Joined: 1/1/2009
From: GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

~FRing it~

My honest opinion?

Life is just too fuckng short to sit around waiting or fuss over who should make the first move. If you are interested in someone, sack up and say hello. Dom, sub....doesn't matter.

Why the heck does concepts like dominance or submission have to be assigned to something as trivial as saying hi?

I must agree with the above....yet...

I really don't think it matters, but I understand in the scheme of "hierarchy", submissives approaching first maintains that.

I've heard many school of thought, including if a Dom approaches first, they seem desperate...to it violate the Leather code for a Dom to approach. Again, I am not against how people want to practice or how they make the initial approach work for them.

This was a good question to post...

< Message edited by MsDDom -- 10/31/2014 1:40:23 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 1:51:37 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: oddlots347

I have talked with subs who have the opinion they will not approach a Dom to do a scene and let them so to speak ask them. Then there are others who will approach a Dom and ask them to do a scene. Either way is is fine with me.

In this case they aren't submissive to you so they don't qualify as a sub.
You aren't dominant to them so you don't qualify as a dom.

You're exactly like two people at the country club who want to play tennis and don't have a partner. It doesn't matter if you approach her and ask if she wants to play, or she asks you, or you folks go to the tennis pro (party host) and ask if they could set you up with a play partner.

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(in reply to oddlots347)

Post #: 30

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 10/31/2014 3:03:32 PM

SeekingTrinity

Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline

~FRing it~

I think it really depends on perspective. Back in the day, I used to identify as a dominant female. I saw nothing wrong with someone approaching me, nor did I have any trouble approaching either. I didn't get all caught up in how my actions might be perceived...because it's nothing more than saying hello to someone and perhaps even introducing myself if I thought the reception I received gave me the impression it was alright to continue. I've actually received feedback in the past thanking me for taking the first step because the person admitted they were new and either didn't have the guts to do so or they were worried about what the protocol might be. It's just being friendly, so why the hang up over who does it first? I see myself and others as people first...dominant, submissive, slave, switch, etc second. Think about it this way. If you are at a social gathering of likewise kink minded folks, do you hang back all night hoping that certain someone who caught your eye approaches you? I used to do that in the beginning...and missed out on a lot of what could have been great opportunities. Once I threw caution to the wind and sacked up...damn, that was when shit just got awesomely real

One could argue that subs approaching dominants first makes them seem desperate too. Why does a dominant approaching first make them seem desperate? If I was a lion, Im not going to sit around waiting for a gazelle to approach me. I'm going to go after what I want. I think some people worry too much about stuff that doesn't matter in the long run.

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 10/31/2014 3:04:58 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 31

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/1/2014 4:25:15 PM

Utopia1

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

I was just having this conversation with a new sub who was asking advice. I told her that there are two very good reasons why subs should always approach.

1) Qualified, experienced Doms nearly always have plenty of potential playmates. Although they might welcome new ones, or something more permanent, they have no need to approach someone who may or may not be interested. The old saying "all of the good ones are taken" is true, only with BDSM, that doesn't mean they're unavailable. The flip side of that is that any Dom that approaches - especially if it's aggressively - is probably not a qualified and experienced Dom.

2) The act of approaching can almost be considered a submissive act. If a Dom is trying to impress the sub, then the whole relationship is already started with the wrong power balance - even before they've spoken to each other. The more the Dom tries to impress the sub, the worse it gets. Then once it's on - both people have a hell of a project ahead of them to get things back to the way they should be. When the sub approaches, the power balance feels right from the start - to both parties.

I was wondering what the other side of this debate might be. Are there any good reasons why Doms should approach subs, other than "that's how vanilla people do it"? Are there any other reasons why subs should be the ones showing interest first?

How can I become a qualified Dom in the state of Minnesota?

(in reply to Code)

Post #: 32

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/1/2014 4:42:31 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Plus I could make a case that 'experienced'

well, to be honest, by using the word 'experienced' I was not referring to how long, or how many times a person has wielded a whip or flogger...
I was more or less referring to age, and life experience in general...when talking of relationships and such.

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Post #: 33

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/1/2014 7:07:42 PM

PeggyO

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I am a human, not a "sub". When interacting with other humans, I behave as a human interacting with another human.

I am only a "sub" if I am in a relationship with another person who is happens to be dominant in that relationship.

I know some folks view being dominant or submissive as labels that confer expectations on how one is supposed to act as well as inferring certain character traits on the holder of the label.

I don't view it that way. I view dominance and submission to be a relationship dynamic, not a static label. As a result, I think that if a person is interested in another person they should approach them.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 34

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/1/2014 8:50:04 PM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
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Applause for every word of that post ^^^.

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Post #: 35

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/2/2014 4:44:19 AM

smileforme50

Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

What I think most of us are fully aware of is that women tend to need to be warmed up, whether it's with mental foreplay or physical foreplay. Men are like matchsticks, quick to light up and often quick to burn out. Women are like a smoldering flame, and once our fires are lit, we can radiate warmth for hours on end. This is yet another crucial step in setting the stage for romance that some men are quick and eager to want to bypass, to skip foreplay and dive right into their own ego gratification and sexual gratification. They can only get away with this if we (women) allow them to take shortcuts. It's the difference between having a fast-food drive-thru quickie, fast-food eat-in fucking, or choosing the dine-in lovemaking experience where you savor each morsel of food and leave hours later fully satiated, wanting to return again and again for more of the same. Sure, sometimes you can use a quickie, there are times when you might just want to fuck, but which do you truly want if there were no time constraints or limitations? Take your pick.

BRAVO!!!!!

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She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

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Post #: 36

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/2/2014 5:22:13 AM

ExiledTyrant

Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline

Of course a male D wouldn't ever have to deal with this:

quote:

4/29/2014 7:17:37 PM: So I created my profile and stepped away from my computer for just a second, then came back to discover 3 pages of messages... this is going to be slow going.

I have no issues making contact, but for me it is a crap shoot. Is it buried in 3 pages or 50 pages? Am I filtered strait into Davey Jones? There are many obstacles for a male D, because the ratio is insane, coupled with every tard on the net thinking kinky girls are easy, it is in the /s's best interest to take a step if the D you see may be right for you.

Jus sayin

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(in reply to smileforme50)

Post #: 37

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/2/2014 5:26:27 AM

smileforme50

Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
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I think all the responses on this topic have been wonderful and very enlightening. This has been a very interesting topic.

Personally....I can be assertive online and initiate contact with someone else if they seem interesting to me. But put me in a real life situation and I am extremely shy to the point that I am almost a basket case. So....in a real life situation, I would never make the first move toward someone unless I had a reason other than my attraction to initiate some conversation....like asking him for information or directions.

Online....I will send messages to dominants that have interesting profiles because they usually say something in their profile that helps me to initiate some conversation.

But something funny just occurred to me....There are 5 dominant men I know "real life" that I originally started talking to online that I have had some type of lasting relationship with....whether that be play partner/friend or just friends. I've known each of them anywhere from 3 to 8 years. I was just sitting here thinking about each one of them....and I realized that in all 5 of these relationships THEY were the ones who initiated contact with me. Interesting coincidence.

And on top of that.....I have been getting to know a dominant man I first met on CM since the beginning of this year, and things are looking very promising for us.....and even in that case, he was the one who initiated contact with me.

So....all I have to say is that while what works for the OP might be good for him, I'm glad not all dominants think that way.

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to smileforme50)

Post #: 38

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/2/2014 5:40:25 AM

ElChupa

Posts: 117
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

Only the biggest 0bama sycophant would believe there isn't voter fraud from the democrats. They've been doing this for ages... we keep coming up with proof and the response from the media and democrats is "so what?" Illegals voting? You'd better damn believe it. Right now, demo/leftists all over the country are begging and lying all over the place because they know what is going to happen Tuesday. The only way out for them is cheating. And lying. It's what leftists do.

(in reply to smileforme50)

Post #: 39

RE: Should Subs Approach First? - 11/2/2014 5:55:42 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

Only the biggest 0bama sycophant would believe there isn't voter fraud from the democrats. They've been doing this for ages... we keep coming up with proof and the response from the media and democrats is "so what?" Illegals voting? You'd better damn believe it. Right now, demo/leftists all over the country are begging and lying all over the place because they know what is going to happen Tuesday. The only way out for them is cheating. And lying. It's what leftists do.

And of course, nothing like this happens for those voting for the GOP!

It happens - all over the place - for all parties.
The Dems are no different from the others.
The only difference I see is that the Dems admit it, the GOP just accept it "on the quiet" and say nothing.

They are all as bad as each other.
To say that one is any worse than the other is just myopic and obtuse.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ElChupa)

Post #: 40

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