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RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 3:49:54 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I am not a "lib," but thanks for the compliment anyway, because even though it's not actually a compliment, your assumptions prove the point well enough re the stupidity of people who listen to the barkers and howlers for their 'information.'

The stupid listen to the stupid, so as to remain in that comfort zone.

Oh yes, you consider yourself to be moderate, the hiding place of liberals.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 4:18:58 PM   
Edwynn


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I am far from a 'moderate,' I'm a raving lunatic to some here (perhaps not with out reason).

But you took the media's 'Obamacare" presentation which was actually "Republicare' from the get-go as what to go on, hence the subject of the OP's reference to 'stupid.'


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 4:27:08 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Oh yes, you consider yourself to be moderate, the hiding place of liberals.

Uh, trust me on this Bama. "Neo-Liberal" is not a compliment among us progressives. When you stop to think about it it's pretty predictable that the left and the right would both perceive the center as "the hiding place of the other guys".

Insofar as the actual topic of this thread further research seems to indicate that this Gruber character was not even remotely close to something like a process insider. He's some paid consultant who said something which is obviously true and obviously stupid to say in an interview. Did someone find out something other than that? Did Gruber's name show up regularly in the news during the spin-up to the ACA? As is always true with politics in america, spin everywhere I look and facts in short supply.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 4:29:39 PM   
Edwynn


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He (Gruber) pays and schmoozes the media almost a well as Karl Rove, but even threw them a nicer bone this time.

Even (in fact, especially) Karl Rove appreciates the boldness there, I can assure you.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/17/2014 4:41:45 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 5:53:59 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Oh yes, you consider yourself to be moderate, the hiding place of liberals.

Uh, trust me on this Bama. "Neo-Liberal" is not a compliment among us progressives. When you stop to think about it it's pretty predictable that the left and the right would both perceive the center as "the hiding place of the other guys".

Insofar as the actual topic of this thread further research seems to indicate that this Gruber character was not even remotely close to something like a process insider. He's some paid consultant who said something which is obviously true and obviously stupid to say in an interview. Did someone find out something other than that? Did Gruber's name show up regularly in the news during the spin-up to the ACA? As is always true with politics in america, spin everywhere I look and facts in short supply.

Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 6:42:37 PM   
Edwynn


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Well, that's all that matters.

To you.

Hence the well deserved 'stupid' comment.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 7:36:06 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.

I get that he was involved as a consultant. But I wasn't able to find any sort of evidence of him being close enough either to the bill or to Obama that I'm likely to get offended by his dumbass remarks, as true as they are -- or at least to pin my ire on anyone in particular. Heck, if Obama himself said those quotes on National TV I'd still have much larger beefs with him. Instead we get some political consultant peripherally involved with the whole thing shooting his mouth off. Not newsworthy in my mind.

To me, the funny part in all this is that his remarks are utterly true and we all know it. His sin was in saying it not acting on it. Yeah, politicians rely on the ignorance of us voters... and in fact do their damnedest to make sure we stay ignorant. This cannot be any sort of revelation. But yeah, it's certainly crass to just go ahead and say so on video.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 8:25:19 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.

Heck, if Obama himself said those quotes on National TV I'd still have much larger beefs with him.


Whereas my thinking would be if that Obama actually said those things on national TV, I could only congratulate him for having the cajones to say anything realistic, for a change.

He's actually said some 'strong words' a few times, not that it ever worked out through the congressional process or especially not having the media hate him afterwards for saying whatever, but that's where we are.

If you want crazy to get into law, vote Reagan, whom the media tripped all over itself trying to prove who loved him more, coke dealing and all. I'm not anywhere near a 'fan' of Obama, but if you want stifling of anything approaching 'progressive,' then hate Obama like the media do. Easy-peasy.

You could have a better president than current, but if you think he/she would last half as long in that instance as J F Kennedy did, then you are not realistic, nowhere close.





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RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 8:44:56 PM   
Moderator3


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I have removed two posts for bringing up another member in a negative light, that isn't on the thread. The third post that was removed was a response to a pulled post.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 8:55:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


my contention that libs assume that they are the elite, and know what is good for us better than we do

....and Republican oligarchs assume they are the elite, and know what is good for us better than we do.



Okely dokely then.

So what's this, Muse? The "I'm rubber, you're glue," approach to discussion?

What the fuck has happened to you? It's sad and depressing to see. I think you spent too much time wading around in the shallow end, and have been infected with some awful brain-damaging parasite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naegleria_fowleri

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/17/2014 8:57:17 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 9:11:08 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.

I get that he was involved as a consultant. But I wasn't able to find any sort of evidence of him being close enough either to the bill or to Obama that I'm likely to get offended by his dumbass remarks, as true as they are -- or at least to pin my ire on anyone in particular. Heck, if Obama himself said those quotes on National TV I'd still have much larger beefs with him. Instead we get some political consultant peripherally involved with the whole thing shooting his mouth off. Not newsworthy in my mind.

To me, the funny part in all this is that his remarks are utterly true and we all know it. His sin was in saying it not acting on it. Yeah, politicians rely on the ignorance of us voters... and in fact do their damnedest to make sure we stay ignorant. This cannot be any sort of revelation. But yeah, it's certainly crass to just go ahead and say so on video.


Bit more than just a consultant.

Presolicitation Notice: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=ff3e0b204ae1fd5343ab19cf3a62f160&_cview=0
quote:

The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation (ASPE), intends to negotiate with Jonathan Gruber, Ph.D. on a sole sources basis for technical assistance in evaluating options for national healthcare reform. The basis for restricting competition is the authority of 41 USC 253(c)(1) 106-1(b) because there is only one responsible source and no other supplies or services will satisfy DHHS requirements.The anticipated contract period will be eight months.

And . . .
quote:


Dr. Gruber is uniquely positioned to provide the analytic work ASPE requires based on over 15 years of experience in health care and health policy. Dr. Gruber is a recognized expert in health policy in economics including being widely published in peer-reviewed academic and health policy literature on the effects of changes in health benefit designs on the cost of enrollment in health insurance. Moreover, in order to estimate the impacts, Dr. Gruber developed a proprietary statistically sophisticated micro-simulation model that has the flexibility to ascertain the distribution of changes in health care spending and public and private sector health care costs due to a large variety of changes in health insurance benefit design, public program eligibility criteria, and tax policy. This model has been used for other health reform proposal. Finally, Dr. Gruber’s ongoing work with ASPE, using these proprietary models to help inform the Office of Health Reform, strongly positions him to meet HHS’ requirements the most efficiently, which is a key requirement in order for well-developed legislative proposals to be put forth for Congressional consideration as soon as possible



http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2009/11/29/mit-economist-confirms-senate-health-reform-bill-reduces-costs-and-improves-coverage

quote:

MIT Economist Confirms Senate Health Reform Bill Reduces Costs and Improves Coverage

Jonathan Gruber, PhD, a MIT Economist who has been closely following the health insurance reform process, issued a compelling new report based on data from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. As the Politico wrote, "The report concludes that under the Senate’s health-reform bill, Americans buying individual coverage will pay less than they do for today's typical individual market coverage, and would be protected from high out-of-pocket costs." Here are some key points:

Gruber concludes that the Senate proposal's health insurance exchange, choices and competition, and policies to hold insurers accountable would reduce costs. Savings for people purchasing coverage in the individual market would range from $200 to 500 for individuals and families, and would be greater if people opted for basic benefits. People with low incomes would receive premium tax credits that would reduce the price that they pay for health insurance by as much as $2,500 to $7,500 in 2009 dollars.

Two charts based on his report illustrate these savings:


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/13/editorial-jonathan-grubers-payday/
quote:


Minnesota, for example, used federal Obamacare grants to pay Mr. Gruber to attend one meeting, participate in a biweekly email list and print a copy of the report, all for $329,000. Wisconsin paid Mr. Gruber $400,000 for the same material, requested by the office of then-Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat. When the report was presented, Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, didn’t want Mr. Gruber at the news conference. Vermont is paying him another $400,000 . . . West Virginia, Maine, Colorado and Oregon have partaken of Mr. Gruber’s services, too, guaranteeing him a tidy sum.


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 9:27:34 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.

I get that he was involved as a consultant. But I wasn't able to find any sort of evidence of him being close enough either to the bill or to Obama that I'm likely to get offended by his dumbass remarks, as true as they are -- or at least to pin my ire on anyone in particular. Heck, if Obama himself said those quotes on National TV I'd still have much larger beefs with him. Instead we get some political consultant peripherally involved with the whole thing shooting his mouth off. Not newsworthy in my mind.

To me, the funny part in all this is that his remarks are utterly true and we all know it. His sin was in saying it not acting on it. Yeah, politicians rely on the ignorance of us voters... and in fact do their damnedest to make sure we stay ignorant. This cannot be any sort of revelation. But yeah, it's certainly crass to just go ahead and say so on video.

I saw him on tape stating that he met Obama twice and that the "tortured" nature of the bill was Obama's idea.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 9:33:49 PM   
BamaD


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Whereas my thinking would be if that Obama actually said those things on national TV, I could only congratulate him for having the cajones to say anything realistic, for a change.


He should be congratulated for telling the truth about having lied? Wow[/i]

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 9:38:54 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.

I get that he was involved as a consultant. But I wasn't able to find any sort of evidence of him being close enough either to the bill or to Obama that I'm likely to get offended by his dumbass remarks, as true as they are -- or at least to pin my ire on anyone in particular. Heck, if Obama himself said those quotes on National TV I'd still have much larger beefs with him. Instead we get some political consultant peripherally involved with the whole thing shooting his mouth off. Not newsworthy in my mind.

To me, the funny part in all this is that his remarks are utterly true and we all know it. His sin was in saying it not acting on it. Yeah, politicians rely on the ignorance of us voters... and in fact do their damnedest to make sure we stay ignorant. This cannot be any sort of revelation. But yeah, it's certainly crass to just go ahead and say so on video.


Bit more than just a consultant.


Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeldt and Paul Wolfowitz were something a bit more than just consultants too, but I'm sure that's beside the point.



(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 9:48:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Pelosi quoted him repeatedly and he met with Obama at least twice.

I get that he was involved as a consultant. But I wasn't able to find any sort of evidence of him being close enough either to the bill or to Obama that I'm likely to get offended by his dumbass remarks, as true as they are -- or at least to pin my ire on anyone in particular. Heck, if Obama himself said those quotes on National TV I'd still have much larger beefs with him. Instead we get some political consultant peripherally involved with the whole thing shooting his mouth off. Not newsworthy in my mind.

To me, the funny part in all this is that his remarks are utterly true and we all know it. His sin was in saying it not acting on it. Yeah, politicians rely on the ignorance of us voters... and in fact do their damnedest to make sure we stay ignorant. This cannot be any sort of revelation. But yeah, it's certainly crass to just go ahead and say so on video.


Bit more than just a consultant.


Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeldt and Paul Wolfowitz were something a bit more than just consultants too, but I'm sure that's beside the point.




Totally beside the point, particularly since they were not billed as such.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/17/2014 9:58:05 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Whereas my thinking would be if that Obama actually said those things on national TV, I could only congratulate him for having the cajones to say anything realistic, for a change.

He should be congratulated for telling the truth about having lied? Wow[/i]


If Rumsfeldt or Rove ever told the truth about lying their ass of to put the world into turmoil for 50 years and beyond, and their responsibility for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, I would congratulate them, too.

How's that?


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/17/2014 10:29:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/18/2014 3:51:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


my contention that libs assume that they are the elite, and know what is good for us better than we do

....and Republican oligarchs assume they are the elite, and know what is good for us better than we do.



Okely dokely then.

So what's this, Muse? The "I'm rubber, you're glue," approach to discussion?

What the fuck has happened to you? It's sad and depressing to see. I think you spent too much time wading around in the shallow end, and have been infected with some awful brain-damaging parasite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naegleria_fowleri

Look to the light, Rich.

It was a bullshit post, and got a bullshit response (exemplified by the Romney/Ryan fiasco, in fact).

Arguments and data are wasted here on some folk. If you want to dive in to the shallow end, watch your head.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Gruber, and the stupidity of the American voter - 11/18/2014 4:50:30 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No,what "they" generally concede is that there are people who do need help,and that government is best positioned to provide that help.
Do you deny that simple fact ?



not that I give a shit whether you concede that or not.....

The government can't even handle the sign up web sites, and you think they can handle health care?


Of course they can. Look at the standup job they are doing now with the VA and CMS.

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 58
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