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RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 6:24:33 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Hell, if you go to the doctor because you have pains in your chest but deliberately don't tell the doctor about them, you aren't going to be helped. No difference between this and working a therapeutic program.

If the doctor gives you a scrip for hypertension meds and you don't fill it, or fill it but don't take them daily according to the instructions, it's no good saying that all doctors are fakes when you have that heart attack or stroke.

In illnesses of the body or the brain, compliance and the will of the patient to do their best is essential.

Quite. Attitude toward treatment is everything.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 81

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 6:29:32 PM

YouName

Posts: 271
Joined: 10/22/2014
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Im basically very macro orientated in my philosophy of life. So while I'm really fascinated with individuals of different types, when it comes to discussing things like this I disregard the individual and look at the whole picture. I can't possibly judge any case by case applications of it on a bloody forum nor should you or anyone else. What you or I have experienced is mostly irrelevant...But W*E...I really doubt this discussion is worth anything anymore. Dunno why you bring up 6 of my replies or something only to agree that further response is not worth anything. You should disagree but I should stand firm in my declination.

Or maybe you just meant the analogies? They aren't worth anything because you would take offense at them and thus most probably disregard them.
So to put it like this...Im glad it helped you, I think in general there are better ways to address various issues.

< Message edited by YouName -- 11/20/2014 6:33:00 PM >

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 82

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 6:41:13 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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~ fast reply to YouName ~

I'll speak to the situation in the United States. Conditions in your country may be different.

There's a fundamental economic difference between clinical psychologists and medical doctors: there are too many clinical psychologists for the market to bear, and not enough general-practice MDs. This is primarily an issue of who graduated from grad school without knowing hard science, as medical psychologists are still highly sought after, while generic psych PhD's are not.

As a result, patients seeing an MD tend to complain about not getting enough facetime with the doctor, or not getting thorough preventive tests, and so on, because the doctor is pressured by both patient list and insurance company to see as many people in a day as possible. By contrast, it's in the psychologist's financial interest to keep a patient in therapy forever, because there aren't enough new patients to support the number of therapy offices in the country. This also means that the doctor's job is to fix you, while the psychologist's job is to help you *learn to cope* -- a completely different goal, and one that never really ends.

There are a lot of good people -- and a lot of good science -- in psychology, but the discipline as a whole is tainted by its economic situation. This is something leaders in the field are well aware of, but it's a hard truth to speak out loud, because nobody wants to scare graduate students away from their department. In private and in person, though, it's a grave concern.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 83

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 6:43:32 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Im basically very macro orientated in my philosophy of life. So while I'm really fascinated with individuals of different types, when it comes to discussing things like this I disregard the individual and look at the whole picture. I can't possibly judge any case by case applications of it on a bloody forum nor should you or anyone else. What you or I have experienced is mostly irrelevant...But W*E...I really doubt this discussion is worth anything anymore. Dunno why you bring up 6 of my replies or something only to agree that further response is not worth anything. You should disagree but I should stand firm in my declination.

Or maybe you just meant the analogies? They aren't worth anything because you would take offense at them and thus most probably disregard them.
So to put it like this...Im glad it helped you, I think in general there are better ways to address various issues.

If you think I am offended that easily, you don't know me very well.

My disregard of your stance is not based on my taking offense, it is based on the reality of the fact that while it may not work for you, it does work for some. It is not all garbage as you stated.

I will also state that discussing it further would prove fruitless merely because it is unlikely to produce anything of value.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to YouName)

Post #: 84

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 6:51:11 PM

YouName

Posts: 271
Joined: 10/22/2014
Status: offline

Red Magic> Excellent post. I'm not knowledgeable enough to really give a qualified response but in my country I believe the situation is slightly reverse. Due to state financing there are too many clients and too few psychologists. The psychologists rarely make more money per client. There is basically no private insurance and what is rarely covers these type of things except for trauma events.

Thus you have a direction towards the type of therapy that fixes the shell of a person but does not resolve their inner conundrums. (Or more commonly certain types of fears that are tangible)
Therapy that is pre-set for a certain amount of sessions is for example quite common.

But my problem with the profession stretches much further than its imperfect implementation in society. I ll send you a little PM.

< Message edited by YouName -- 11/20/2014 7:06:54 PM >

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 85

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 6:52:35 PM

YouName

Posts: 271
Joined: 10/22/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Im basically very macro orientated in my philosophy of life. So while I'm really fascinated with individuals of different types, when it comes to discussing things like this I disregard the individual and look at the whole picture. I can't possibly judge any case by case applications of it on a bloody forum nor should you or anyone else. What you or I have experienced is mostly irrelevant...But W*E...I really doubt this discussion is worth anything anymore. Dunno why you bring up 6 of my replies or something only to agree that further response is not worth anything. You should disagree but I should stand firm in my declination.

Or maybe you just meant the analogies? They aren't worth anything because you would take offense at them and thus most probably disregard them.
So to put it like this...Im glad it helped you, I think in general there are better ways to address various issues.

If you think I am offended that easily, you don't know me very well.

My disregard of your stance is not based on my taking offense, it is based on the reality of the fact that while it may not work for you, it does work for some. It is not all garbage as you stated.

I will also state that discussing it further would prove fruitless merely because it is unlikely to produce anything of value.

Then shut up and stop quoting my posts.

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 86

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/20/2014 7:01:28 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Then shut up and stop quoting my posts.

Good luck with that.

Way to show maturity.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to YouName)

Post #: 87

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/21/2014 2:48:22 PM

orgasmdenial12

Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
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Lol I used to feel like that - I still do occasionally.

For me, the dividing line is her pleasure or satisfaction. I can understand most kinds of submission through the spectrum of it being something that she needs / wants / finds satisfying or fulfilling or does as part of an overall happy relationship.

What I can't understand, and what still angers me, is whiny subs who claim that they hate activity (x), and don't want to do it but are forced to do it by their Dom. It's patently obvious to me that they wouldn't be in the relationship if it was unhappy, for whatever reason, and that they must gain something from performing such activities, to the point where, if the relationship or the activities ended, they would soon be searching for another way to get them. It's irritating that they're so blind to their own desires and agency, and so uncomfortable with admitting what they really want, that they have to shift the blame to the Dom and make him seem like the bad guy, just so that they can get their masochistic fix.

So, to summarise - I don't get irritated about crazy levels of servitude so long as I can see that the sub is into it. I can easily understand service that the submissive *hates* and yet needs or wants somehow. But subs who claim to be poor wilting little snowdrops who have no choice but to be complicit in their own destruction, I have no patience for.

(in reply to smileforme50)

Post #: 88

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/21/2014 4:00:02 PM

Bhruic

Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

But there is also a good chance that your friends and partners are just as messed up and need therapy as much as you do (you as a general term...not you specifically). How much help is someone going to be if they're struggling with the same problems you are?

You are absolutely right. I guess one would find that out pretty quick. I'm not opposed to therapy... just aware that it doesn't work for everyone.

_____________________________

pronounced "VROOick"

(in reply to smileforme50)

Post #: 89

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/21/2014 4:01:17 PM

Bhruic

Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

One big problem with therapy, is that it is not terribly difficult to successfully lie to someone who knows you little enough to be objective.

While your friends and partners may be less objective, they can see through, and call, your bullshit more readily.

Therapy only works if you accept the need to be completely open and vulnerable. Some people can only get there with a stranger... but if you can get there with a friend or partner who is receptive, you may get more value out of that than therapy can provide.

Hmmm... Go maith le... I'm going to have to keep an on you, you're way more level than your name implies.

Jus sayin

I'm gonna take that as a compliment :) Right?

_____________________________

pronounced "VROOick"

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)

Post #: 90

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/21/2014 4:05:10 PM

ExiledTyrant

Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

One big problem with therapy, is that it is not terribly difficult to successfully lie to someone who knows you little enough to be objective.

While your friends and partners may be less objective, they can see through, and call, your bullshit more readily.

Therapy only works if you accept the need to be completely open and vulnerable. Some people can only get there with a stranger... but if you can get there with a friend or partner who is receptive, you may get more value out of that than therapy can provide.

Hmmm... Go maith le... I'm going to have to keep an on you, you're way more level than your name implies.

Jus sayin

I'm gonna take that as a compliment :) Right?

Indeed :)

_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to Bhruic)

Post #: 91

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/24/2014 7:59:35 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

Lol I used to feel like that - I still do occasionally.

For me, the dividing line is her pleasure or satisfaction. I can understand most kinds of submission through the spectrum of it being something that she needs / wants / finds satisfying or fulfilling or does as part of an overall happy relationship.

What I can't understand, and what still angers me, is whiny subs who claim that they hate activity (x), and don't want to do it but are forced to do it by their Dom.

You're incorrect. I hate football, college and professional. I really detest college basketball. But I sit here quietly while he watches this shit because I love him and want him to be happy.

And because I know when it's finally over, I can steal the remote and watch Alaska, The Last Frontier.

What I get from this is knowing that the man I love is happy. I get no personal satisfaction from the activity. Same with other things, if it doesn't make me ill to do it, and if it isn't all the time, then I don't need to enjoy it. I only need to know that he's enjoying it immensely.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 92

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/24/2014 8:27:53 AM

littleladybug

Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

What I can't understand, and what still angers me, is whiny subs who claim that they hate activity (x), and don't want to do it but are forced to do it by their Dom. It's patently obvious to me that they wouldn't be in the relationship if it was unhappy, for whatever reason, and that they must gain something from performing such activities, to the point where, if the relationship or the activities ended, they would soon be searching for another way to get them. It's irritating that they're so blind to their own desires and agency, and so uncomfortable with admitting what they really want, that they have to shift the blame to the Dom and make him seem like the bad guy, just so that they can get their masochistic fix.

There were quite a few activities, both sexual and non-sexual, that my prior Dom really liked that I hated. If I never did those activities again, I would live quite a happy life. Why did I do them? Because it made him happy...and, even more than that, he understood that I didn't like them.

We had one issue that was ongoing for quite a time at the beginning of our relationship. He was the type who enjoyed going out and spending hours and hours just socializing. For example, a typical Saturday for us during the winter was spending the day at our curling club. We would finish curling at about 11, and generally not get out of there until about 4 or 5 in the afternoon. While this was fun for me at times, it was something that I didn't want to do *every* week. I endured it for quite a long time. It took me a while to figure out how to best bring up the topic with him without hurting him. But, once we got it all out, we came to a compromise. (Compromise....go figure...) He wanted me with him, but would not *force* me to stay if I didn't want to. (Much like the way some couples use a "safe word", we had the "taxi clause". If I wanted to leave, I could, and it would not be brought back against me.) Sure enough, after this was brought out, I think we only had to use the "taxi clause" once over the course of about 4 years. Because he realized that I was not happy doing this every week, it ended up not happening every week.

Fortunately, I had people close to me that I could discuss these issues with, who knew both him and me. I could just imagine the responses I would have gotten if I had posed the questions in an online forum.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 93

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 11/24/2014 9:19:45 PM

smileforme50

Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

Lol I used to feel like that - I still do occasionally.

For me, the dividing line is her pleasure or satisfaction. I can understand most kinds of submission through the spectrum of it being something that she needs / wants / finds satisfying or fulfilling or does as part of an overall happy relationship.

What I can't understand, and what still angers me, is whiny subs who claim that they hate activity (x), and don't want to do it but are forced to do it by their Dom.

You're incorrect. I hate football, college and professional. I really detest college basketball. But I sit here quietly while he watches this shit because I love him and want him to be happy.

And because I know when it's finally over, I can steal the remote and watch Alaska, The Last Frontier.

What I get from this is knowing that the man I love is happy. I get no personal satisfaction from the activity. Same with other things, if it doesn't make me ill to do it, and if it isn't all the time, then I don't need to enjoy it. I only need to know that he's enjoying it immensely.

Exactly.....and even though I think a lot of people just consider that to be part of "submission", there are also a lot of people in vanilla relationships who do that same things....because they enjoy seeing their partner HAPPY.

The issue comes when the unpleasant activities start to outnumber or outweigh the enjoyable ones, or if it seems like the other person never gives their partner the same consideration.

I will sit through lots of horror movies, brutal action movies, and sci-fi....but if we NEVER watch a romantic comedy or a good mystery together....then I start to feel like he's being overly selfish and wonder what I'm doing there with him. I may submit to his way 99% of the time....but if I don't get to have my own enjoyment even 1% of the time, the pleasure I get from making him happy can start to fade

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 94

RE: Why can't I reconcile these things?? - 7/26/2015 3:05:51 PM

NeedAWhirlie

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline

I know this thread has faded into a very graceful retirement, so I hope it's okay if I revive it, me being new to the forums and all. But here I sit on Sunday evening with a little forum addiction growing, feeding it so indulgently. I actually did a search for, "therapy" because I want to find any discussions D/s friendly psych therapists. But I was led here, so I'm following the diversion with a post because I'd like to chime in here...

It's always been a question for me- and I think I have changed over the years. And I think... the truth is no matter what it is I do- inside the bedroom or out- as a submissive in the relationship, I'm doing it because there will be some reward. The reward could be a vanilla one- like, my partner's happy when we watch scary movies together (that I would never watch on my own).. aww, it's a warm fuzzy sweet feeling I get for being completely scared. Or the reward could be a nice sexual thrill when he hurts me in ways I really don't like, but they make me feel so good down there. Or the reward could be a deepening intimacy with him when a mental or emotional block has been uncomfortably worked through...

So I don't really subscribe to the completely giving sub- that giving in and of itself may hold the reward for that person. But it's just a rule of nature... positive consequences = behavior modification- naturally occurring or orchestrated. And like OP said above, there does ultimately have to be a feeling of balance- which can come in different ratios for everyone. It might not make sense to others looking in, but no creature, human or otherwise, does anything without some kind of positive result in mind.

< Message edited by NeedAWhirlie -- 7/26/2015 3:08:32 PM >

(in reply to smileforme50)

Post #: 95

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