RE: US Health Care Costs (Full Version)

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eulero83 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/23/2014 3:59:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
by the way sorry Desideriscuri I haven't addressed your original question, why do health care costs so much in the USA, because health care is considered as a common good or service, while the main difference with health care is you can't decide if buying it or not it just happens and you are forced to do so or in most cases have a shitty life in a lot of cases die. So how does market works you ask the price it maximize your profits and who can't afford it is "out of market". The maximum price is apparently 80% of the maximum amount of money health insurance can raise. It has nothing to do with the mere costs of procedures because there is no competition or choice the only limit is that “You can shear a sheep a lot of times, but you can only skin him once.”.


Are you really saying that the costs of procedures has nothing to do with the cost of insurance, or how much money is spent for health care?!?



I would not say nothing to do, but it's not a direct correlation, the price of any good in a free market is set by the offert and demand law pursuing maximization of profit. It's not how it costs producing a good but how much people are willing to pay. An example was the bill for the appendectomy that went viral some time ago, just for the use of the two rooms (medical supply and other services were in another part) he was charged 4800 ad 7500 dollars, it's not justificable by costs it's not they burned the bed and floor after he used it. They just know that's the highest affordable price with an insurance.




DesideriScuri -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/23/2014 7:14:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
by the way sorry Desideriscuri I haven't addressed your original question, why do health care costs so much in the USA, because health care is considered as a common good or service, while the main difference with health care is you can't decide if buying it or not it just happens and you are forced to do so or in most cases have a shitty life in a lot of cases die. So how does market works you ask the price it maximize your profits and who can't afford it is "out of market". The maximum price is apparently 80% of the maximum amount of money health insurance can raise. It has nothing to do with the mere costs of procedures because there is no competition or choice the only limit is that “You can shear a sheep a lot of times, but you can only skin him once.”.

Are you really saying that the costs of procedures has nothing to do with the cost of insurance, or how much money is spent for health care?!?

I would not say nothing to do, but it's not a direct correlation, the price of any good in a free market is set by the offert and demand law pursuing maximization of profit. It's not how it costs producing a good but how much people are willing to pay. An example was the bill for the appendectomy that went viral some time ago, just for the use of the two rooms (medical supply and other services were in another part) he was charged 4800 ad 7500 dollars, it's not justificable by costs it's not they burned the bed and floor after he used it. They just know that's the highest affordable price with an insurance.


Maybe not a constant direct correlation, but since they do have to spend at least 80% of the premiums taken in directly towards care, as cost of care goes up, premiums will also follow. That's how I get the crazy idea that reducing the unit costs of care will result in the cost of insurance going down.

I know. Crazy.




Edwynn -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/23/2014 7:23:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The AMA has a virtual monopoly in deciding who can, who can't, and how many can/can't become doctors. It behooves them to keep the number of Dr.'s low, so their rates stay high. Thank you, Federal Government!


The AMA is an independent (i.e. private) professional organization and has nothing to do with the federal government.

quote:

Health care providers are owned by the health care financiers. That's a conflict of interest if I've ever seen one!


I'm not sure what you're driving at, and I don't know exactly what you mean by "health care financiers," but in any case healthcare is a business in the US and anybody or any company can own whatever business they like. From 1981 onwards all the regulatory agencies concerning businesses (FTC, Federal Reserve, OCC,FDIC, SEC, etc.) have spent the majority of their efforts in improving the quality of rubber and ink for their rubber stamping process.


quote:

As a %GDP, all 6 of those countries health care spend trend alike, don't they? The ups and downs are pretty much there for each country, but the magnitudes of those changes are different.


Trend lines are similar if they have a similar slope. Clearly, five of the six have similar slopes. Even more clearly, the line representing HC cost in the US has a conspicuously steeper slope, which is to say that the gap has been becoming wider all the time (from about 1979 onward), and is continuing to do so.








thishereboi -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/23/2014 7:41:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh bollocks
sucking balls is not a homosexual endeavour only




No it's not but that hasn't stopped people from using nutsucker and cocksucker as homophobic slurs. But I totally understand why the dancing man gets a pass.




Aylee -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/23/2014 8:32:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
by the way sorry Desideriscuri I haven't addressed your original question, why do health care costs so much in the USA, because health care is considered as a common good or service, while the main difference with health care is you can't decide if buying it or not it just happens and you are forced to do so or in most cases have a shitty life in a lot of cases die. So how does market works you ask the price it maximize your profits and who can't afford it is "out of market". The maximum price is apparently 80% of the maximum amount of money health insurance can raise. It has nothing to do with the mere costs of procedures because there is no competition or choice the only limit is that “You can shear a sheep a lot of times, but you can only skin him once.”.


Are you really saying that the costs of procedures has nothing to do with the cost of insurance, or how much money is spent for health care?!?



I would actually say that it is the reimbursement rate of procedures. Not the cost.




eulero83 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/23/2014 11:31:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
by the way sorry Desideriscuri I haven't addressed your original question, why do health care costs so much in the USA, because health care is considered as a common good or service, while the main difference with health care is you can't decide if buying it or not it just happens and you are forced to do so or in most cases have a shitty life in a lot of cases die. So how does market works you ask the price it maximize your profits and who can't afford it is "out of market". The maximum price is apparently 80% of the maximum amount of money health insurance can raise. It has nothing to do with the mere costs of procedures because there is no competition or choice the only limit is that “You can shear a sheep a lot of times, but you can only skin him once.”.

Are you really saying that the costs of procedures has nothing to do with the cost of insurance, or how much money is spent for health care?!?

I would not say nothing to do, but it's not a direct correlation, the price of any good in a free market is set by the offert and demand law pursuing maximization of profit. It's not how it costs producing a good but how much people are willing to pay. An example was the bill for the appendectomy that went viral some time ago, just for the use of the two rooms (medical supply and other services were in another part) he was charged 4800 ad 7500 dollars, it's not justificable by costs it's not they burned the bed and floor after he used it. They just know that's the highest affordable price with an insurance.


Maybe not a constant direct correlation, but since they do have to spend at least 80% of the premiums taken in directly towards care, as cost of care goes up, premiums will also follow. That's how I get the crazy idea that reducing the unit costs of care will result in the cost of insurance going down.

I know. Crazy.



I was talking about procedure price in correlation with the cost the medical facility has to face, sorry I misunderstood your question.
Hovever if the procedure's prices go up, the 20% profit is a larger number, that was part of my point. If there is a trust it's a cause if there is not it's a consequence of health care costs.




Lucylastic -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 4:07:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh bollocks
sucking balls is not a homosexual endeavour only




No it's not but that hasn't stopped people from using nutsucker and cocksucker as homophobic slurs. But I totally understand why the dancing man gets a pass.

nah we can always rely on you to point out his foibles, its about the only thing you are good for
...light entertainment that has naff all to do with the thread,




Sanity -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 5:30:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh bollocks
sucking balls is not a homosexual endeavour only




No it's not but that hasn't stopped people from using nutsucker and cocksucker as homophobic slurs. But I totally understand why the dancing man gets a pass.


Not much of a man since he has to rely on homophobic slurs to try to get a leg up in every "debate"




Lucylastic -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 6:06:20 AM)

nah he brings it down to your level of understanding
.....obviously




Sanity -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 6:12:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nah he brings it down to your level of understanding
.....obviously


Other than you leftist trolls, hardly anyone truly understands you leftist trolls with your over reliance on personal attacks etc

One thing thats abundantly clear though

Facts, logic and intellectual debate arent your friends so you are forced instead to rely on such crutches as these pathetic slurs





Lucylastic -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 6:22:52 AM)

poor persecuted you





thishereboi -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 6:26:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nah he brings it down to your level of understanding
.....obviously


Other than you leftist trolls, hardly anyone truly understands you leftist trolls with your over reliance on personal attacks etc

One thing thats abundantly clear though

Facts, logic and intellectual debate arent your friends so you are forced instead to rely on such crutches as these pathetic slurs




That is pretty funny coming from someone who has to throw "leftist" in to every post he makes.




Zonie63 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 8:17:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The NYT has an investigative reporter, Elizabeth Rosenthal, who has been covering this issue in depth for a long time.

Here an example of her reporting: The 2.7 Trillion Dollar Medical Bill


Interesting, well-written, and informative article. Thanks for posting that.

From the article:

quote:

A major factor behind the high costs is that the United States, unique among industrialized nations, does not generally regulate or intervene in medical pricing, aside from setting payment rates for Medicare and Medicaid, the government programs for older people and the poor. Many other countries deliver health care on a private fee-for-service basis, as does much of the American health care system, but they set rates as if health care were a public utility or negotiate fees with providers and insurers nationwide, for example.


This is what I was saying earlier about price controls, just as we do with utility companies. That's what should have been done from the very beginning.

quote:


“In the U.S., we like to consider health care a free market,” said Dr. David Blumenthal, president of the Commonwealth Fund and a former adviser to President Obama. ”But it is a very weird market, riddled with market failures.”


Of course, it's a weird market, and it's not even a free market. If health care was actually a free market, there would be no such thing as "controlled substances" or requirements for prescriptions. That's what always floors me about the "free market" arguments regarding health care, since no one truly wishes to have a free and unfettered health care market out there.

quote:


Consider this:

Consumers, the patients, do not see prices until after a service is provided, if they see them at all. And there is little quality data on hospitals and doctors to help determine good value, aside from surveys conducted by popular Web sites and magazines. Patients with insurance pay a tiny fraction of the bill, providing scant disincentive for spending.

Even doctors often do not know the costs of the tests and procedures they prescribe. When Dr. Michael Collins, an internist in East Hartford, Conn., called the hospital that he is affiliated with to price lab tests and a colonoscopy, he could not get an answer. “It’s impossible for me to think about cost,” he said. “If you go to the supermarket and there are no prices, how can you make intelligent decisions?”

Instead, payments are often determined in countless negotiations between a doctor, hospital or pharmacy, and an insurer, with the result often depending on their relative negotiating power. Insurers have limited incentive to bargain forcefully, since they can raise premiums to cover costs.

“It all comes down to market share, and very rarely is anyone looking out for the patient,” said Dr. Jeffrey Rice, the chief executive of Healthcare Blue Book, which tracks commercial insurance payments. “People think it’s like other purchases: that if you pay more you get a better car. But in medicine, it’s not like that.”


Perhaps another way of dealing with this issue is requiring health care providers post a price list which is easily accessible to the public. Any other product or service I might purchase in the "free market," I'd have the opportunity to examine it, comparative shop, read customer reviews, check with the Better Business Bureau, etc. I don't think it's wise consumerism to pay the price of a Rolls Royce and end up with a Pinto, but that's how it seems to work in the healthcare industry.





tj444 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 10:31:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Perhaps another way of dealing with this issue is requiring health care providers post a price list which is easily accessible to the public. Any other product or service I might purchase in the "free market," I'd have the opportunity to examine it, comparative shop, read customer reviews, check with the Better Business Bureau, etc. I don't think it's wise consumerism to pay the price of a Rolls Royce and end up with a Pinto, but that's how it seems to work in the healthcare industry.


People can do some of that.. there are some lists comparing costs, you can even shop worldwide (or across the US) for the doctor, hospital and medical procedures (and their costs) you seek.. medical tourism is alive and growing and I have heard of an insurance corp that will allow people to travel to other countries to get medical procedures done..

and there are some Doctor rating websites that people can use.. so at least you get some basic idea of how he/she operates, how clients rate them and their comments.. (imo the BBB isn't exactly all that unbiased, btw)..

The thing about people is that they usually don't seek this info out (how many seniors know how to use a computer & internet?).. And of course there are limits due to who their insurance company will pay, which complicates the hell outta trying to get the doctor you want vs pick from a restrictive list the insurance corp wants you to use..

And imo you need to know the way you want the procedure done, for example, I want a specific toe surgery, being operated on from above the foot (which is the way almost all doctors do it) would leave my foot in a cast for a month, unable to walk and a lot of pain but a lesser known procedure to do the same thing is to operate from underneath the foot (up thru the sole of the foot).. that procedure requires no cast, considerably less pain and walking in a few days.. So my view on finding a doctor is first learning how you want the procedure done and then search for doctors that do it that way (there aren't many in the US that do that foot surgery the way I want but I have found some).. So people also need to do their own medical research to even know about the different procedures to get the result you want.. Most people just go to the Doctor expecting that he/she knows things that they probably don't.. most doctors just do things the way they were taught way back when they went to doctor school..

Just to show you that there is info out there, here are few i have collected for my medical tourism file-
http://www.bidforsurgery.com/ Bid for Surgery- cosmetic surgery, dental
www.medibid.com get bids on medical treatments around the world
http://www.timelymedical.ca/ Timely Medical Alternatives
http://northamericansurgery.com/procedures North American Surgery Inc
100 or more specialty companies, like PlanetHospital, 360 Global Health, and MedVoy, that pair patients with overseas surgeons and hospitals, charging them a percentage of the overall procedure costs.
https://www.healthcarebluebook.com / a guide to help you determine Fair Prices in your area for healthcare services.
Ms. Palmer runs a company called Medical Billing Advocates, which is in the business of disputing outrageous hospital bills.
http://www.medicaltourismassociation.com/en/index.html Medical Tourism Assn
http://www.imtj.com/welcome/ International Medical Travel Journal- news, reports, studies etc
Companion Global Healthcare http://companionglobalhealthcare.com/ facilitates medical tourism options by providing concierge travel, case management services and assisting patients with accessing select hospitals. CGH has built extensive relationships with hospitals worldwide and contracts with a highly select network of facilities. CGH also assists employers with modifying their benefit plans to create significant savings by incenting employees to consider surgery abroad for medically necessary, episodic procedures

"This past June, MediBid helped Perry Hunt, a 50-year-old home developer in Orange County, California, get a new right hip in Texas. Hunt's local surgeon said the operation would cost $100,000. Hunt was uninsured and did not want to pay that. MediBid had found quotes for India ($8,000), another hospital in California an hour from Hunt's home ($14,450), and one in San Antonio ($21,000)."[/i]
http://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/health/medical-tourism-overseas-and-under-the-knife-20131122




tj444 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 10:41:04 AM)

more info..

Avoiding outrageous medical bills
Author: Bill Spencer, Investigative Reporter, [email protected]
Published On: May 05 2014
HOUSTON -
For many people these days going to the hospital is like entering a cage fight, full of tension and drama and surprises, where patients often feel powerless against the massive hospital system and its huge costs.
In fact, struggling to pay high medical bills is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in this country.
Tatyana Prichetnikova is a 34-year-old single mother from Houston who went to the hospital because she was writhing in pain from a kidney stone.
Quick Clicks
• Billing Advocacy website
"I was driving at the time of the attack. I start crying and screaming because the pain was so bad," remembered Prichetnikova.
At the hospital, Prichetnikova was given an IV, a MRI, a urine test and four ibuprofen pills for the pain.
"I did not get to ask doctor question, they didn't give me advice. Nothing, nothing was taken care, besides they easing my pain," Prichetnikova said.
After a short three-hour hospital stay, Prichetnikova got a bill for $10,153.00. She could not believe the cost.
"I'm saying I can't pay this bill right now, as I hang up I start crying and my heart was beating like crazy and I think now I'm having heart attack too," recalled Tatyana as she looked at her invoice from the hospital.
Enter Shawn Fry, a former hospital administrator, who now runs Prevalent Healthcare Information Technology, which is a company that specializes in helping hospitals improve billing, identify billing mistakes and ultimately help hospitals collect more revenue.
Fry said the average American hospital patient could save thousands and thousands of dollars on their hospital bills, just by following a few simple steps.
"I would say almost all Americans are paying too much for hospital costs," said Fry.
Here are the steps to cutting your hospital bills:
Step 1:
Shop the exact price for the hospital procedure you want at different hospitals in your area.
There are several new websites where you can do just that.
Sites like HealthCareBlueBook.com, SnapHealth.com and ClearHealthCareCost.com.

Step 2:
Armed with that pricing information, now try to negotiate a lower price with the hospital of your choice for the procedure you want, up front.
Insurance companies do it everyday, so should you.
"Consumers can reduce their cost 20 to 50 percent, simply by the willingness to negotiate and pay up front," said Fry.
Step 3:
After you have your procedure or service at the hospital, ask for an itemized bill and check it for mistakes in billing.
Things like being charged for drugs and services you never received.
Being charged two, three, or four times for the same thing.
And the most expensive mistake of all: Being charged for extra days at the hospital that you never used.
"If you were discharged on Wednesday in the morning, you are not responsible for paying that days charge -- if you were discharged early enough," said Fry.
Step 4:
Just as college students apply for financial aid, you should apply for financial aid at the hospital. Many people can qualify and they don't even know it.
Step 5:
If all else fails, ask for a discount off your total bill anyway.
Fry said most of the time, you'll get it, if you are professional in your discussion and you agree to pay the price that is agreed upon.
"Hospitals would welcome patients who are willing to step up and negotiate, and agree to pay a lower rate, because hospitals want to get paid, many of these dollars are never collected by the hospitals," Fry said.
Fry has created a website to help patients negotiate hospital bills on their own behalf, you can find it here.
http://billingadvocacy.com/




eulero83 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 11:17:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
Step 1:
Shop the exact price for the hospital procedure you want at different hospitals in your area.
There are several new websites where you can do just that.
Sites like HealthCareBlueBook.com, SnapHealth.com and ClearHealthCareCost.com.



if it's not an emergency or you are not in blinding pain I suppose it's a good advice

quote:


Step 2:
Armed with that pricing information, now try to negotiate a lower price with the hospital of your choice for the procedure you want, up front.
Insurance companies do it everyday, so should you.
"Consumers can reduce their cost 20 to 50 percent, simply by the willingness to negotiate and pay up front," said Fry.


if it's 1000 dollars maybe... but if the bill is 20000 even if you get a reduction of 50% it's still 10 grands to pay upfront does everyone in usa keep that kind of money under the rug?

quote:


Step 3:
After you have your procedure or service at the hospital, ask for an itemized bill and check it for mistakes in billing.
Things like being charged for drugs and services you never received.
Being charged two, three, or four times for the same thing.
And the most expensive mistake of all: Being charged for extra days at the hospital that you never used.
"If you were discharged on Wednesday in the morning, you are not responsible for paying that days charge -- if you were discharged early enough," said Fry.


if you were not under anesthesia when the supposed mistake happened

quote:


Step 4:
Just as college students apply for financial aid, you should apply for financial aid at the hospital. Many people can qualify and they don't even know it.


so you pay it with interests, maybe it saves you from bankrupcy but those money and other money are gone forever.

quote:


Step 5:
If all else fails, ask for a discount off your total bill anyway.
Fry said most of the time, you'll get it, if you are professional in your discussion and you agree to pay the price that is agreed upon.
"Hospitals would welcome patients who are willing to step up and negotiate, and agree to pay a lower rate, because hospitals want to get paid, many of these dollars are never collected by the hospitals," Fry said.
Fry has created a website to help patients negotiate hospital bills on their own behalf, you can find it here.
http://billingadvocacy.com/


or they just didn't really needed all those money they asked




tj444 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 12:25:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
Step 1:
Shop the exact price for the hospital procedure you want at different hospitals in your area.
There are several new websites where you can do just that.
Sites like HealthCareBlueBook.com, SnapHealth.com and ClearHealthCareCost.com.



if it's not an emergency or you are not in blinding pain I suppose it's a good advice

quote:


Step 2:
Armed with that pricing information, now try to negotiate a lower price with the hospital of your choice for the procedure you want, up front.
Insurance companies do it everyday, so should you.
"Consumers can reduce their cost 20 to 50 percent, simply by the willingness to negotiate and pay up front," said Fry.


if it's 1000 dollars maybe... but if the bill is 20000 even if you get a reduction of 50% it's still 10 grands to pay upfront does everyone in usa keep that kind of money under the rug?

quote:


Step 3:
After you have your procedure or service at the hospital, ask for an itemized bill and check it for mistakes in billing.
Things like being charged for drugs and services you never received.
Being charged two, three, or four times for the same thing.
And the most expensive mistake of all: Being charged for extra days at the hospital that you never used.
"If you were discharged on Wednesday in the morning, you are not responsible for paying that days charge -- if you were discharged early enough," said Fry.


if you were not under anesthesia when the supposed mistake happened

quote:


Step 4:
Just as college students apply for financial aid, you should apply for financial aid at the hospital. Many people can qualify and they don't even know it.


so you pay it with interests, maybe it saves you from bankrupcy but those money and other money are gone forever.

quote:


Step 5:
If all else fails, ask for a discount off your total bill anyway.
Fry said most of the time, you'll get it, if you are professional in your discussion and you agree to pay the price that is agreed upon.
"Hospitals would welcome patients who are willing to step up and negotiate, and agree to pay a lower rate, because hospitals want to get paid, many of these dollars are never collected by the hospitals," Fry said.
Fry has created a website to help patients negotiate hospital bills on their own behalf, you can find it here.
http://billingadvocacy.com/


or they just didn't really needed all those money they asked

of course if its not an emergency.. I expect people to know that.. [8|] how can you "shop" when you are in the ambulance, after all? This is not a foolproof list/article.. but even if it is an emergency you can still do number 3, 4, 5 and dispute the charges, even using rates for the same meds, procedures from other hospitals to show the hospital how outrageous their charges are.. No, not everyone has a vault of cash but some people in the US have funds for health care set aside in health accounts or access to funds if they feel the discount is worth paying cash for it.. There is some financial aid for some people, but they have to find out about it first, then find out if they qualify.. Also, there are 1,200 free and charitable clinics in the US.. http://www.nafcclinics.org/
The point is that info is out there if people want to access it and there are options if people want to use them, and you can fight the greedy corrupt system if you want to (the more people fight it, the more change that will happen), if not then I guess sheeple can just roll over and take it (like most seem to do anyway)..




cloudboy -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 2:30:27 PM)


Read this today:

When a doctor is affiliated with a hospital, though, patients end up paying, out of pocket, an average $134 more per dose for the most commonly used cancer drugs, according to a report by IMS Health, a health care information company. And, the report notes, many cancer patients receive multiple drugs.

“Say there was a Costco that had very good things at reasonable prices,” said Dr. Barry Brooks, a Dallas oncologist in private practice. “Then a Neiman Marcus comes in and changes the sign on the door and starts billing twice as much for the same things.” That, he said, is what is happening in oncology.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/health/private-oncologists-being-forced-out-leaving-patients-to-face-higher-bills.html?ref=us&_r=0




cloudboy -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 2:33:59 PM)


We pay the highest prices in the world pretty much across the board.




eulero83 -> RE: US Health Care Costs (11/24/2014 2:48:12 PM)

tj444 I understand that was something in the "in this moment that's the best thing you can do" but it still is a kind of russian rulette, if you are lucky enough fine, if something bad happens to you well the worse has yet to come.




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