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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:20:17 AM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I can define blue as red, but it doesn't really make it red now does it?

And, I can call a dog a cat. That doesn't make it true either.

Of course, I can easily look up definitions of dogs and cats and see that I am wrong. Is there someplace that I can look for the definition of "Master" and "slave" in the BDSM context?

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:21:24 AM

YouName

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Actually, it's exacly what makes it!

Not only are experiences relative (color blindness for example) but definitions of words are indeed defined by the people who use them. Or possibly some gloomy institution somewhere if you're into that.

(What I mean here is that red can both be an other color to someone and have an other definition, these two things are different).

Now since slavery doesn't actually exist as most of us used to define it (I take some liberty here) it becomes even harder to nail down.

< Message edited by YouName -- 11/24/2014 10:26:59 AM >

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:41:39 AM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

(What I mean here is that red can both be an other color to someone and have an other definition, these two things are different).

Red is red. It has a definition based on wavelengths, spectrum and other stuff I have absolutely no background in. If someone who is colorblind cannot distinguish it, that doesn't change the definition.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:42:18 AM

BitYakin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I can define blue as red, but it doesn't really make it red now does it?

And, I can call a dog a cat. That doesn't make it true either.

Of course, I can easily look up definitions of dogs and cats and see that I am wrong. Is there someplace that I can look for the definition of "Master" and "slave" in the BDSM context?

how bout a dictionary?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master

pick the one that most closely applies

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

again pick the one that most closely applies

it's ok you get to call yourself and anyone else anything you like...

personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, is it REALLY so important that you wear the label "SLAVE" as opposed to "SUBMISSIVE"??

its a WORD, it has a definition, if you don't fit that definition, DEAL WITH IT!

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:43:40 AM

YouName

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I used to say exacly the same thing! (Seriously, for the very same example!) But I don't anymore.

And slavery is a human concept, an idea, a prospect for some. Much more complicated, no?

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:44:36 AM

smileforme50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

Sounds just like what my friend believes....although he is currently happy married to his slave and has been poly many times

The "poly" part...

While I don't begrudge anyone doing (legally) what they want with their lives....in the context of this conversation, this begs the question for me... in the context of a slave having "no choice"... was this something that the wife knew was a possibility prior to agreeing to becoming his slave?

In my own world, it is something like *this* that gives me pause. If I were to hand over all control, I would expect that it would be with full informed consent. What happens if something comes up that was not anticipated by the parties prior to engaging in the relationship? No matter how thorough people are in discussing things, there's always that possibility. Heck...someone could tell me that he absolutely does not want to "share". What happens if he changes his mind later on?

If I were to ever enter into a relationship like this, it would certainly be with an "escape clause". Now, if that makes me "not a slave" in someone else's book, it really doesn't matter. Personally, I wouldn't have respect enough for someone to give him that power if he didn't respect me enough to understand that my consent will have that limit.

Yes.... His slave knew all about his poly preferences before she took his collar and before she married him. He has always been a very transparent guy. Hell, even I knew about his poly interests before she became his slave and married him.

But you also addressed one of my biggest concerns. What if something comes up that was never addressed before they went to M/s? Is that just "tough luck" for the slave? Like you.... That's why I think there should always be an escape clause.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:47:45 AM

BitYakin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Actually, it's exacly what makes it!

Not only are experiences relative (color blindness for example) but definitions of words are indeed defined by the people who use them. Or possibly some gloomy institution somewhere if you're into that.

(What I mean here is that red can both be an other color to someone and have an other definition, these two things are different).

Now since slavery doesn't actually exist as most of us used to define it (I take some liberty here) it becomes even harder to nail down.

funny you should mention color blindness, as I actually AM color blind, I have blue/green deficancies

when I was in grade school during art class I colored grass red, when the teacher asked WHY I colored grass red I said welllllllll it IS isn't it?

guess what? I WAS WRONG

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:50:40 AM

BitYakin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

I used to say exacly the same thing! (Seriously, for the very same example!) But I don't anymore.

And slavery is a human concept, an idea, a prospect for some. Much more complicated, no?

everything is a human concept, red is red because some human somewhere along the line decided THATS RED!

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:54:48 AM

YouName

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So let's follow the definition.

Complete subservience.
But this is of course impossible for a legally free person, no?

Even if they chose not to excersise their right, they are by definition not completely subservient.
Or can they be?

Meh...Should they be is the OPs question I guess? But can they be is the first one we should answer.
And if it's about personal choice, did we then ever have slavery? Wasn't there always the choice to fight, to flee, to refuse under what ever penalty would be applied?

So the question:

Does your personal choice or the choice society dictates for you define whether or not you are a slave?
Or let's not be that extreme. If you choose slavery up to the point of " a wrong" direction being taken, are you really a slave then?

Why do we even need to brand people slaves? Isn't it really just about degrees of submission?

< Message edited by YouName -- 11/24/2014 10:57:13 AM >

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:57:35 AM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, is it REALLY so important that you wear the label "SLAVE" as opposed to "SUBMISSIVE"??

its a WORD, it has a definition, if you don't fit that definition, DEAL WITH IT!

Ok...done with the caps?

Personally, I don't care much for labels. I only adopt them in a general context in forums like this one.

What's interesting to me about the links you provided is the definition of "slave".

"a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something"

"one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence"

On the same site, "submissive" is defined as

"characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others"

...which is why I asked about these definitions specifically in relation to BDSM. Is there any place to find that?

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 10:59:09 AM

smileforme50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I can define blue as red, but it doesn't really make it red now does it?

And, I can call a dog a cat. That doesn't make it true either.

Of course, I can easily look up definitions of dogs and cats and see that I am wrong. Is there someplace that I can look for the definition of "Master" and "slave" in the BDSM context?

how bout a dictionary?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master

pick the one that most closely applies

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

again pick the one that most closely applies

it's ok you get to call yourself and anyone else anything you like...

personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, is it REALLY so important that you wear the label "SLAVE" as opposed to "SUBMISSIVE"??

its a WORD, it has a definition, if you don't fit that definition, DEAL WITH IT!

I'm not do much concerned with defining any words. What I wanted to know was how strict do most people think these relationships are/should be FOR THEM.

I wanted to know how many people out there held such a strict view. How many people just shrug at the idea of a slave being "sold" to another? How many people put there see their ideal M/s relationship as one where the slave has no choice?

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She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 11:06:32 AM

YouName

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, is it REALLY so important that you wear the label "SLAVE" as opposed to "SUBMISSIVE"??

its a WORD, it has a definition, if you don't fit that definition, DEAL WITH IT!

Ok...done with the caps?

Personally, I don't care much for labels. I only adopt them in a general context in forums like this one.

What's interesting to me about the links you provided is the definition of "slave".

"a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something"

"one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence"

On the same site, "submissive" is defined as

"characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others"

...which is why I asked about these definitions specifically in relation to BDSM. Is there any place to find that?

¨
There's a good wiki called whipedia or something...but I forgot about its url.
The swedish site darkside.se defines it as being owned and owned as being collared and having surrendered part of their control over their life as compared to a submissive that merely submits when it feels reasonable (within a session/kink).

Smileforme50 is right, let's skip the semantics.

For me (unless it would be a part of some gorean fantasy or something) it would feel terribly wrong to ever sell or be sold. Even though I identify as a switch I can picture myself in either of the two usual roles but never doing this. The concept of not having control over with whom I live with feels both alien, illegal and thus impossible for me. In fact, the choice is there always, for everything. It can be actively repressed.

Let's put it this way. If I had a slave I would think it to be extremely irresponsible to sell that person to someone without discussing it with her first and at that point the sale just becomes symbolic anyway.

< Message edited by YouName -- 11/24/2014 11:11:31 AM >

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 11:08:49 AM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

¨
There's a good wiki called whipedia or something...but I forgot about its url.
The swedish site darkside.se defines it as being owned and owned as being collared and having surrendered part of their control over their life as compared to a submissive that merely submits when it feels reasonable (within a session/kink).

That's interesting, because under that definition, I'm not submissive.

Go figure.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 11:12:07 AM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50.

I wanted to know how many people out there held such a strict view. How many people just shrug at the idea of a slave being "sold" to another? How many people put there see their ideal M/s relationship as one where the slave has no choice?

Sorry for the slight derailment. Though it's not my ideal of an M/s relationship, I do know that there are plenty of people who do think that the "slave has no choice" is the crux of it.

I do wonder, however, what the percentage is of potential Masters vs. potential slaves that think this way...

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 11:17:20 AM

YouName

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Well it's a wiki. It works as such that different people can suggest definitions. The oldest and shortest one is what I mentioned.

Others have suggested that there are different types of submission and that a slave is submissive but a submissive not necessary a slave:

Sexual submission, (Self-explained)
Social submission. (Self-explained)
Relational submission. (Financial control, control over trips, control over activities)

The english one is really good (a bit more moderated), darnit I wish I could link it to you but I can't even google it anymore.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 11:19:39 AM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Well it's a wiki. It works as such that different people can suggest definitions. The oldest and shortest one is what I mentioned.

That's the point. What one person's definition is may not be applicable to others.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 11:23:12 AM

YouName

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Ah, Yup.

Clearly geographical differences play a role.
For example there's no word for "Top/Bottom" really. Although we are adopting the english ones slowly from what I can see when I talk to people.

Instead "undergiven" (Submissive) is somewhere around bottom - submissive while slav (slave) is somewhere between submissive-slave.

edit: Ah, screw the semantics now :P PM me if you want to play ball a bit more.

< Message edited by YouName -- 11/24/2014 11:24:09 AM >

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 12:15:24 PM

searching4mysir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName

Actually, it's exacly what makes it!

Not only are experiences relative (color blindness for example) but definitions of words are indeed defined by the people who use them. Or possibly some gloomy institution somewhere if you're into that.

(What I mean here is that red can both be an other color to someone and have an other definition, these two things are different).

Now since slavery doesn't actually exist as most of us used to define it (I take some liberty here) it becomes even harder to nail down.

funny you should mention color blindness, as I actually AM color blind, I have blue/green deficancies

when I was in grade school during art class I colored grass red, when the teacher asked WHY I colored grass red I said welllllllll it IS isn't it?

guess what? I WAS WRONG

Actually, no you weren't wrong. There are grasses that are naturally red.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 12:18:36 PM

GoddessManko

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FR, I would hope a slave primarily would be someone with a good sense of judgement and depth perception if they plan on being owned completely.

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RE: What is the mental condition of a slave? - 11/24/2014 7:57:29 PM

DesFIP

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I do think that the dude who can't inspire anyone to submit to him is going around telling those of us who are in 24/7 TPE relationships that we aren't twue.

In any event, what this boils down to, like always, is the owner not being an idiot. If you picked an idiot, then maybe you will have your teeth yanked out and then you'll sue him once you break up. If you pick a smart person, who merits this level of authority, it will never arise.

Being edgier than the Jones' isn't what makes someone a great master. Being so competent that your partner feels perfectly safe with his/her life in your hands is what does.

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