RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson

RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (Full Version)

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[Poll]

The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson

Officer Wilson WILL be charged with a crime

2% (1)

Officer Wilson will NOT be charged with a crime

38% (14)

I could not care less

11% (4)

Who is officer Wilson

16% (6)

Regardless of the decision Wilson is guilty

19% (7)

Regardless of the decision Wilson is innocent

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : 12/8/2014 3:18:50 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

BamaD -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/25/2014 7:21:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I do believe there needs to be change when it comes to representing the racial make up of a city on the police forces... Do you think a "quota system" that makes the racial make up of a police force similar to the racial make up of the populace is a good idea? I sure don't. I wouldn't have a problem if it was exactly the same, or if it was skewed towards minorities. As long as the officers on the police force are qualified for the job, I pretty much don't care. I just hope officers don't shy away from doing their jobs properly because the suspect is of a different race. That could end up just as poorly. There is a great deal of evidence that LEO's that do not live in the communities they police treat those communities as an area to be occupied rather than a community to be protected. Ferguson, as all of St. Louis County, does not require its LEO's to reside in the communities they police. That is why a lot of people think police force should reflect the racial makeup of the communities they police. Or, as with the department I worked for, they encourage them living outside the area they police so there can be no indication of personal involvement with the people they arrest, either pro or con.

DomKen -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/25/2014 8:05:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I do believe there needs to be change when it comes to representing the racial make up of a city on the police forces... Do you think a "quota system" that makes the racial make up of a police force similar to the racial make up of the populace is a good idea? I sure don't. I wouldn't have a problem if it was exactly the same, or if it was skewed towards minorities. As long as the officers on the police force are qualified for the job, I pretty much don't care. I just hope officers don't shy away from doing their jobs properly because the suspect is of a different race. That could end up just as poorly. There is a great deal of evidence that LEO's that do not live in the communities they police treat those communities as an area to be occupied rather than a community to be protected. Ferguson, as all of St. Louis County, does not require its LEO's to reside in the communities they police. That is why a lot of people think police force should reflect the racial makeup of the communities they police. Or, as with the department I worked for, they encourage them living outside the area they police so there can be no indication of personal involvement with the people they arrest, either pro or con. And it shows. in your attitude.

BamaD -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/25/2014 8:17:43 PM)
And it shows. in your attitude. It was to avoid the practice, or appearance of favors for friends, and harassment of enemies. BTW I was in supply, I wasn't an officer, as I have said several times.

DomKen -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/25/2014 9:16:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And it shows. in your attitude. It was to avoid the practice, or appearance of favors for friends, and harassment of enemies. BTW I was in supply, I wasn't an officer, as I have said several times. Community policing works as has been established in cities across this country since it was first tried in Madison WI in the late 60's. LEO's not residing in the community they police does not work. You can see the difference right now in Ferguson and all over the country.

BamaD -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/25/2014 9:47:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And it shows. in your attitude. It was to avoid the practice, or appearance of favors for friends, and harassment of enemies. BTW I was in supply, I wasn't an officer, as I have said several times. Community policing works as has been established in cities across this country since it was first tried in Madison WI in the late 60's. LEO's not residing in the community they police does not work. You can see the difference right now in Ferguson and all over the country. Funny, because we used community policing.

starkem -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 2:10:55 AM)
I will say this....justice denied is justice deferred. People seeking justice will not tolerate undue justification. In the absence of this man being tried for the death of Brown, dissatisfaction became a prevailing sentiment. It does not change the outcome of a grand jury, but it does send a clear message of the dissatisfaction. Timothy McVeeigh (sp?) was arrested without incident, John Gotti had similar results. It is not a matter of self defense that is in question here; it is a criminal matter of excessive force to subdue a suspected criminal that is in question herein. The so called grand jury and the people of such ill repute don't think the method, in due course, of apprehension was excessive. However, people that perceieve a pattern of policemen abusing the great deference given to their authority will not garner empathy from anyone except close family and friends and the idiots that think it is okay. I can excuse the family and friends because they have a viable vested interest. The people otherwise situated, however, will not receive the same sentiment of respect. No matter what your position for absolving the officer of this percieved innocence, their are people who will oppose that viewpoint. Moreover, such opposition will oppose the very notion that black men are somehow not apprenhendible or worthy of the same regard when it comes to law enforcement. What is very unsettling about this notion is that the implication of justifiable force, in this matter and others, is unwarranted and not tenable. Specifically to this matter, criminal defendants have been indicted for lesser offenses and therefore the indignation of some that alleged action of the officer is not readily percieved. To say that this indignation is somehow idiocity is a failure of addressing the underlying problem that motivates the policy of who is denned dangerous and life threatening to legal apprehension. There was a recent case of a white suspect who allegedly had killed and/or injured several law enforcement personnel; yet he was eventually apprehended, without lethal consequences albeit he was considered armed and dangerous. This is not an arbitrary act of apprehension of such dangerous persons; nor, the act of pursuit of black men being expendable in such matters. George Zimmerman endured a trial for his defense of his actions. People desired the same justice in this matter. I don't see any action thereafter their dissatisfaction rising to the level of savagery implied in these adverse postings. I see ignorance or lack of empathy -for sake of abetter description- to the plight of people who deem this pattern of injustice as intolerable. Can you dig that???

tweakabelle -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 3:42:54 AM)
Whatever the outcome of this particular episode it is crystal clear that there has been a complete breakdown in relations between a large section of Ferguson's population and the local police. In the longer term the question must be 'How can relations between the police and the local community be repaired?' It seems unlikely that Ferguson is unique in having this problem. I imagine that there are many communities across the US where police-community relations are fractured and fractious. Equally there must be many communities that have experienced problems along these lines in the past and resolved them successfully. I doubt that anyone would contest the proposition that police-community relations in Ferguson wouldn't benefit from change. To me, it seems probable that radical changes are needed for trust and co-operation to be restored. Perhaps it might be more productive to focus on resolving the long term issue of developing and maintaining good police-community relations than dwelling on the detail of this particular issue or the community response to it.

YouName -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 4:01:43 AM)
I think Starkem just ended this thread.

Sanity -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 5:05:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: starkem I will say this....justice denied is justice deferred. People seeking justice will not tolerate undue justification. In the absence of this man being tried for the death of Brown, dissatisfaction became a prevailing sentiment. It does not change the outcome of a grand jury, but it does send a clear message of the dissatisfaction. Timothy McVeeigh (sp?) was arrested without incident, John Gotti had similar results. It is not a matter of self defense that is in question here; it is a criminal matter of excessive force to subdue a suspected criminal that is in question herein. The so called grand jury and the people of such ill repute don't think the method, in due course, of apprehension was excessive. However, people that perceieve a pattern of policemen abusing the great deference given to their authority will not garner empathy from anyone except close family and friends and the idiots that think it is okay. I can excuse the family and friends because they have a viable vested interest. The people otherwise situated, however, will not receive the same sentiment of respect. No matter what your position for absolving the officer of this percieved innocence, their are people who will oppose that viewpoint. Moreover, such opposition will oppose the very notion that black men are somehow not apprenhendible or worthy of the same regard when it comes to law enforcement. What is very unsettling about this notion is that the implication of justifiable force, in this matter and others, is unwarranted and not tenable. Specifically to this matter, criminal defendants have been indicted for lesser offenses and therefore the indignation of some that alleged action of the officer is not readily percieved. To say that this indignation is somehow idiocity is a failure of addressing the underlying problem that motivates the policy of who is denned dangerous and life threatening to legal apprehension. There was a recent case of a white suspect who allegedly had killed and/or injured several law enforcement personnel; yet he was eventually apprehended, without lethal consequences albeit he was considered armed and dangerous. This is not an arbitrary act of apprehension of such dangerous persons; nor, the act of pursuit of black men being expendable in such matters. George Zimmerman endured a trial for his defense of his actions. People desired the same justice in this matter. I don't see any action thereafter their dissatisfaction rising to the level of savagery implied in these adverse postings. I see ignorance or lack of empathy -for sake of abetter description- to the plight of people who deem this pattern of injustice as intolerable. Can you dig that??? The mob began their looting and arson "justice" before the grand jury transcripts were even released

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 5:12:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Whatever the outcome of this particular episode it is crystal clear that there has been a complete breakdown in relations between a large section of Ferguson's population and the local police. In the longer term the question must be 'How can relations between the police and the local community be repaired?' It seems unlikely that Ferguson is unique in having this problem. I imagine that there are many communities across the US where police-community relations are fractured and fractious. Equally there must be many communities that have experienced problems along these lines in the past and resolved them successfully. I doubt that anyone would contest the proposition that police-community relations in Ferguson wouldn't benefit from change. To me, it seems probable that radical changes are needed for trust and co-operation to be restored. Perhaps it might be more productive to focus on resolving the long term issue of developing and maintaining good police-community relations than dwelling on the detail of this particular issue or the community response to it. It seems to me, to be able to make such a radical change requires the laws to be changed such that anyone, police or public, assailant or defender, that when someone is severely injured or killed has to face a charge of some sort and go through judicial process. This, as I see it, is where the breakdown is occuring. The authorities are getting away with what the people see as excessive (and often lethal) force with impunity. And as I've said many times in gun threads.... the mindset appears to be "gun first" without consideration of other means of apprehension or capture. Just like the recent twelve year old who got shot playing with a toy gun and died. That's two recent and completely avoidable deaths because of the "gun first" mindset.

Sanity -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 5:16:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Whatever the outcome of this particular episode it is crystal clear that there has been a complete breakdown in relations between a large section of Ferguson's population and the local police. In the longer term the question must be 'How can relations between the police and the local community be repaired?' It seems unlikely that Ferguson is unique in having this problem. I imagine that there are many communities across the US where police-community relations are fractured and fractious. Equally there must be many communities that have experienced problems along these lines in the past and resolved them successfully. I doubt that anyone would contest the proposition that police-community relations in Ferguson wouldn't benefit from change. To me, it seems probable that radical changes are needed for trust and co-operation to be restored. Perhaps it might be more productive to focus on resolving the long term issue of developing and maintaining good police-community relations than dwelling on the detail of this particular issue or the community response to it. This is more about Democrats needing hate and divisions among the people, and continuing to whip their base into mobs of bad actors so that they can hold onto power than it is about police relations or "justice" The only way leftists can win elections is through a poorly educated but emotionally charged electorate Forget the facts, facts dont matter to these people The grand jury saw all of the facts, heard all of the witnesses and judged that the law man had acted properly in defending himself from the violent street thug who was proven the felonious aggressor in this case Forget the neighborhood. Forget the scared people trying to protect their children and their businesses, their very livelihood Democrats need this hate to grow and fester more than anything

shiftyw -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 5:24:12 AM)
Starkem, that was just...great.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 5:48:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The grand jury saw all of the facts, heard all of the witnesses and judged that the law man had acted properly in defending himself from the violent street thug who was proven the felonious aggressor in this case Why is everything so leftist hate with you??? [8\|] Anyways, the officer didn't get his day in court. This is what the people wanted and didn't get. He was absolved behind closed doors without a judicial hearing and that is what the people are up in arms about. Your rightist clowns are just as bad in many other ways. But like a good little sheeple.... you swallow it, wholesale. [:D]

ydd -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 6:37:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD FR One of those evil cops has been shot, happy now? You are insane. An officer with the University City Police Department in St. Louis was shot as protests in nearby Ferguson intensified Monday night, several media outlets reported. The officer was transported to a nearby hospital, with a bullet wound to the arm, according to the St. Louis County Police Department. He's expected to make a full recovery. St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said in a press conference that the shooting "was totally unrelated to any events here in Ferguson." The shooting occurred after 11 p.m. at Canton and Lamb avenues in the University City section of St. Louis, about five miles southwest from the crowds in Ferguson. Police were reportedly looking for a suspect early Tuesday. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/officer-shot-ferguson_n_6216544.html Actually, it was 2 FBI agents that were shot....one in the arm and one in the leg....while assisting the University City Police execute an arrest warrent. The matter was completely unrelated to the chaos in Ferguson.

Lucylastic -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 6:44:16 AM)
thank you for the update:)

cloudboy -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 6:51:07 AM)
The ArchCity Defenders report was pretty damning. From what I've read --- municipalities have to be ready to contend with civil unrest after an explosive incident -- and a playbook of deescalating the situation needs to be in place beforehand. This was not the case in Ferguson. The other factor here is that this police department was clearly not in the business of protecting and serving the community and so there was a problem brewing and waiting to explode -- and no one in a position of authority in Ferguson was aware of it. In a neighboring district, the police department was so bad that it was disbanded in its entirety. It is kind of an insane policy to not level taxes rationally to pay for a municipality's criminal justice system. In Ferguson, the police and the courts were deriving the bulk of their revenue by shaking down the poor people living there with citations, fines, and bench warrants. The police should not be in the business of shaking down the locals or writing tickets as revenue scheme.

slvemike4u -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 7:46:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Whatever the outcome of this particular episode it is crystal clear that there has been a complete breakdown in relations between a large section of Ferguson's population and the local police. In the longer term the question must be 'How can relations between the police and the local community be repaired?' It seems unlikely that Ferguson is unique in having this problem. I imagine that there are many communities across the US where police-community relations are fractured and fractious. Equally there must be many communities that have experienced problems along these lines in the past and resolved them successfully. I doubt that anyone would contest the proposition that police-community relations in Ferguson wouldn't benefit from change. To me, it seems probable that radical changes are needed for trust and co-operation to be restored. Perhaps it might be more productive to focus on resolving the long term issue of developing and maintaining good police-community relations than dwelling on the detail of this particular issue or the community response to it. This is more about Democrats needing hate and divisions among the people, and continuing to whip their base into mobs of bad actors so that they can hold onto power than it is about police relations or "justice" The only way leftists can win elections is through a poorly educated but emotionally charged electorate Forget the facts, facts dont matter to these people The grand jury saw all of the facts, heard all of the witnesses and judged that the law man had acted properly in defending himself from the violent street thug who was proven the felonious aggressor in this case Forget the neighborhood. Forget the scared people trying to protect their children and their businesses, their very livelihood Democrats need this hate to grow and fester more than anything Bringing just a little bit of ideological bias to the table sanity ? Your take on things invariably can be boiled down to boilerplate condemnation of an entire group of folks who are diametrically your opposites on the political spectrum.....you could reduce your postings to a select few prearranged form letters with the simple expedient of filling in certain areas left blank for just such use[8\|]

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 8:12:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 It seems to me, to be able to make such a radical change requires the laws to be changed such that anyone, police or public, assailant or defender, that when someone is severely injured or killed has to face a charge of some sort and go through judicial process. This, as I see it, is where the breakdown is occuring. The authorities are getting away with what the people see as excessive (and often lethal) force with impunity. And as I've said many times in gun threads.... the mindset appears to be "gun first" without consideration of other means of apprehension or capture. Just like the recent twelve year old who got shot playing with a toy gun and died. That's two recent and completely avoidable deaths because of the "gun first" mindset. You're ignoring the fact that Officer Wilson DID go through the judicial process. This wasn't handled internally by a police investigation. The DA brought the case before a Grand Jury, which found that there was insufficient evidence to hold a trial. That's step one of the judicial process. As far as the rest of your "gun first" argument, it's ridiculous. In the Wilson/Brown incident, Brown assaulted a police and went for his weapon, after "allegedly" committing a strong arm robbery. (If he'd managed to get Wilson's weapon, I suspect we'd have had a dead cop.) Once you've done that, you deserve what you get. The other incident, where the 12yo was shot, is troubling, but also understandable. The kid had an Airsoft gun. They're made to look as much like an actual gun as possible, with the exception of a small orange tip which I understand was missing in this case. Someone called 911 and reported that there was someone in the park with a weapon pointing it at people. The caller did say that it "might be a toy", but it's not clear if that was relayed to the officers. When the officers approached, the kid had the "gun" on a bench. They ordered him to stay still and keep his hands up. Instead he grabbed the "gun" off the bench and raised it. When you have a suspect ignoring instructions and raising a weapon, how long do you wait to see if it's a toy or not? If it was real, and they waited too long, he could have fired into the crowd or at the officers. I can just see the headlines "Officers stand by while gunman fires into crowd!" The death was a tragedy, but saying that the officers should have used other means first, when confronting a suspect armed with a "gun" is just illogical. When I was a kid, we had toy guns that looked real. I remember my favorite was a cap-gun that was a fantastic replica of a PPK. They didn't even have the little orange tip. What we didn't have was the urban gang culture giving kids real guns. A kid with a gun is just as dangerous as an adult. I went shooting with a few friends a few years ago, and one brought his kids. They were 12 and 14. Both kids shot better then their dad.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 8:15:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Bringing just a little bit of ideological bias to the table sanity ? Your take on things invariably can be boiled down to boilerplate condemnation of an entire group of folks who are diametrically your opposites on the political spectrum.....you could reduce your postings to a select few prearranged form letters with the simple expedient of filling in certain areas left blank for just such use As opposed to the "fair and balanced" posting we always see from you, Mike? Pot meet kettle

Lucylastic -> RE: The Grand Jury has decided in Ferguson (11/26/2014 8:34:41 AM)
Troubling but understandable.... just fucking wow Q.....killing 12 year olds carrying an airsoft is understandable? A...only in merrica when does it become more than just troubling????

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