RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More

RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (Full Version)

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SweetForDaddy -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:17:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy The whole term seems a bit ridiculous to me, like its laying the fault at the feet of the bottom when it's a deeper problem within the relationship. As a submissive if something is happening to me that I can't at least tolerate I'm going to say so and stop it. If something is constantly happening that I can only just tolerate I'm going to speak up, I don't want to spend my entire life enduring things I hate. If my needs aren't being met I will again say something. I wouldn't top from the bottom for long because this person obviously wouldn't the right one for me. There have been times when I've met someone lovely and really wanted to be involved with them but if the right dynamic isn't there it's very difficult, if not impossible to create. I'm not sure its possible to teach someone how to dominate me, the roles seem to have to be reversed somewhat to do that, which in effect ruins it for me. I would feel like I was being serviced. Not to pick on you, but you do realize how difficult that becomes for the dominant, right? You don't want to endure what you hate...so you'll say something BUTTTT...you don't want to tell the doimant what you want because THEN the roles feel like they're reversed AND now, you are being serviced. That's not what I meant really. I will discuss what my likes/dislikes/limits are beforehand and at great length, of course. I'm not expecting someone to read my mind. I just can't tell someone how to actually dominate me. They can have all of the information but they may not listen, know what to do with it, or the connection just isn't there. The spark, the chemistry....whatever you want to call that magical ingredient that makes things click just isn't there. I don't think it can be learnt or taught.

UnholyBear -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:18:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy The whole term seems a bit ridiculous to me, like its laying the fault at the feet of the bottom when it's a deeper problem within the relationship. As a submissive if something is happening to me that I can't at least tolerate I'm going to say so and stop it. If something is constantly happening that I can only just tolerate I'm going to speak up, I don't want to spend my entire life enduring things I hate. If my needs aren't being met I will again say something. I wouldn't top from the bottom for long because this person obviously wouldn't the right one for me. There have been times when I've met someone lovely and really wanted to be involved with them but if the right dynamic isn't there it's very difficult, if not impossible to create. I'm not sure its possible to teach someone how to dominate me, the roles seem to have to be reversed somewhat to do that, which in effect ruins it for me. I would feel like I was being serviced. Not to pick on you, but you do realize how difficult that becomes for the dominant, right? You don't want to endure what you hate...so you'll say something BUTTTT...you don't want to tell the doimant what you want because THEN the roles feel like they're reversed AND now, you are being serviced. Erm CD....that should be spelled dominant, not doimant!!!!! (note the 5). Yet isn't one of the issues that a dominant expects is for the bottom/sub to opening communicate what the sub/bottoms wants, needs, desires, etc? I mean if I am playing with my Top, and one particular activity isn't working, then I should be speaking up and saying so. As I see it, this entire issue of topping from the bottom is a result of either not enough communication and/or miscommunication from either sides. I seriously have to wonder how many times a person is falsely accused of topping from the bottom when in fact, it is simply the bottom being openly giving feedback? How else is a top/dominant supposed to know what they are doing is pleasurable unless the bottom expresses that? edited to add: too often I see this issue as someone either not listening or ignoring the feedback which was expected from them in the first place.....

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:25:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Pfffttt... that may be your safe word, but not the one "WE" are using. Jus sayin Damn, now my memory is called into question. Yup, it's a Monday. Nope, no memory slip, I just didn't give you our safe word cuz I'm a prick and didn't want you using it. quote: quote: P.S. It is a great topic, Darlin, and a much needed one. I hope the lurkers garner much insight from it. Thanks. I like getting all ranty, sometimes. smiles It does the body good ;) quote: I like it even more when people give different points of view, or challenge my stance. There you go, Topping from the bottom, you strumpet! Jus sayin

CreativeDominant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UnholyBear quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy The whole term seems a bit ridiculous to me, like its laying the fault at the feet of the bottom when it's a deeper problem within the relationship. As a submissive if something is happening to me that I can't at least tolerate I'm going to say so and stop it. If something is constantly happening that I can only just tolerate I'm going to speak up, I don't want to spend my entire life enduring things I hate. If my needs aren't being met I will again say something. I wouldn't top from the bottom for long because this person obviously wouldn't the right one for me. There have been times when I've met someone lovely and really wanted to be involved with them but if the right dynamic isn't there it's very difficult, if not impossible to create. I'm not sure its possible to teach someone how to dominate me, the roles seem to have to be reversed somewhat to do that, which in effect ruins it for me. I would feel like I was being serviced. Not to pick on you, but you do realize how difficult that becomes for the dominant, right? You don't want to endure what you hate...so you'll say something BUTTTT...you don't want to tell the doimant what you want because THEN the roles feel like they're reversed AND now, you are being serviced. Erm CD....that should be spelled dominant, not doimant!!!!! (note the 5). Yet isn't one of the issues that a dominant expects is for the bottom/sub to opening communicate what the sub/bottoms wants, needs, desires, etc? I mean if I am playing with my Top, and one particular activity isn't working, then I should be speaking up and saying so. As I see it, this entire issue of topping from the bottom is a result of either not enough communication and/or miscommunication from either sides. I seriously have to wonder how many times a person is falsely accused of topping from the bottom when in fact, it is simply the bottom being openly giving feedback? How else is a top/dominant supposed to know what they are doing is pleasurable unless the bottom expresses that? edited to add: too often I see this issue as someone either not listening or ignoring the feedback which was expected from them in the first place..... Go back and read my edited version, you hussy...grins.

UnholyBear -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:43:45 AM)
Ugh....and of course, you edit happens as I was writing out my reply.......sheesh. Yet I feel it still must be noted that even though, as you indicated, there will be lots of communication leading up to you leading another yet that communication should always occur after they agree to be led by you. In theory I concur with Tyrant's statement yet it still comes across as too cut and dried for some reason. Maybe my view of an authority driven dynamic as being a creation that is always evolving and changing is too skewed? I still see this complaint of topping from the bottom as a problem that more often than not, tossed about as a way to lay blame on the other person instead of being clear and concise. Yes people will manipulate others and it is no different in the kinky folk.

UnholyBear -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:46:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Go back and read my edited version, you hussy...grins. Face it you hunk of manmeat......you love it (grinz X 5)

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:55:16 AM)
It's a good Monday when I'm called a strumpet. grins

UnholyBear -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 9:08:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes It's a good Monday when I'm called a strumpet. grins I agree and I got called a hussy!

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 9:12:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes It's a good Monday when I'm called a strumpet. grins Well, SuperStrumpet, I'm feelin a wardrobe change is in order. [img]http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00793/SUPER_woman_793933a.jpg[/img] Jus sayin

GoddessManko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 9:26:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes The term "topping from the bottom" is thrown about by Won Twoo Wayists the way that "Did you find everything you were looking for?" is tossed out by grocery store check clerks, and with the sneering disdain usually reserved for the 'poor, unaware vanillas.' Submissives and slaves are told, "You're topping from the bottom. You're not a real ______!" But why? What is this 'topping from the bottom', and why is it so heinous a crime? Let's rip this shit open! Urban Dictionary defines topping from the bottom as: quote: In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. The person on the bottom (submissive/slave) is leading. Oh mi godz, the horrors! Oh wait. No, I don't feel that way. In fact, I'm really just feeling that people who use this term as an insult are asshole-ing. (asshole-ing: the verb of being an asshole all over other people, without their consent. Yes, it's a thing. I just made it one.) Perhaps I'm just not getting it. Let's check out that definition again (bold is my emphasis): quote: In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. So, the term topping from the bottom means that the bottom/sub/slave is LEADING the Top/Dominant/Master. Well, fuckerooni! No WONDER all the tip-toppy types are all woried! The bitchez is takin' over! Wait. Whut? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I suggest that 'topping from the bottom' be retired as anything but a description of a particular type of scene. Reason the First The main reason: It makes YOU, oh Domly One, look like a fucking idiot. Because you're saying that the submissive has taken the lead from you. Yeah. Read that definition again, then look at those examples. You've lost your lead (if you ever had it). Your respect as a leader. You're not doing your job, filling your role. Your other is stepping up to take it away from you (or never gave it to you to begin with). And you know what? In that case, I say, "Fuck yeah! Good onya!" Because you are obviously not meeting their needs, if they have to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out to get what they want from you. You're asshole-ing from the middle of your own puddle of shit here. Reason The Second If you're saying this to an s-type that you are talking to online, because they are asserting their need to be spoken to as a human being, explaining what they are looking for in a relationship, or refusing to call you "GrandLordWolfyMcDommyPants," until you're actually IN a relationship, you're prematurely asshole-ing. Reason the Third If you're saying it about someone else's dynamic, well then, you're always the asshole for judging that. You're asshole-ing from the sidelines. For the s-Types So, remember when I said to the left side of the slash: Because you are obviously not meeting their needs, if they have to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out to get what they want from you. ?? Well, I'll tell you, it does not reflect well on you to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out, ever. I mean, I get it. Avoiding confrontation (or misdirecting it) is a time-honored tradition. But it's not likely to get you what you want. It's just going to confuse the issue and make it even less likely that your real needs will be heard, understood, and met. And that makes you the one asshole-ing. Yeah, even s-types can asshole all over the place. Perceived power or not. You're also asshole-ing just as much as the D-types if you judge other people's dynamics. Just saying. What is the Assholery-Free Use of the phrase 'Topping from the Bottom'? The kind where you are teaching, with a sense of goodwill and mutual benefit. An experienced submissive has a lot to teach. Even an inexperienced submissive can have a lot to teach about his/herself. There is nothing wrong with that teaching. In a scene. In an email. In a discussion. With fireworks, histrionics, manipulation... just teaching. And if you are doing that, clearly communicating your interests, what gives you pleasure, your boundaries, etc, in a helpful and not creepy or whiny way, and some Uber-Dom tells you that you are topping from the bottom, feel free to just walk away. Because they have already lost control of the situation. And are too busy asshole-ing to lead you. Firstly, I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving. Secondly, because I am joining the convo oh so late, I'm going to address the OP. I find that "Oh Domly Ones" are right, they make the rules. If a sub has an issue with them, I would hope they have the ability to walk away because that is always an option (I do not believe in contracts and blah). Topping from the bottom is mentioned frequently because it happens frequently in my experience. We all have our preferences, this "lifestyle" comes with a sexual premise to be prepared for some sort of "topping from the bottom" to ensue. No one is perfectly submissive or obedient from right off the street, building a relationship, even a professional one of respect and trust takes time. Anything that requires a scrip for me is not a power exchange but for proDommes it is so I realize that indeed there are over 50 shades of grey. I also find that for some reason, many Dommes feel compelled to come to the defense of subs very quickly without realizing they often don't need defending. There is a lot of choice and wiggle room for either parties before committing but decide to whom and under what circumstance takes a little brain power. I'm sorry but if you are a woman, you should know "this is how I'm going to protect myself" and if you are a submissive, same thing. But letting unnecessary paranoia to get in the way of meeting possible soulmate for a cup of coffee? Is a little unreasonable and "get a grip"- esque. I know there are abusive and unreasonable Dommes, avoid, otherwise accept and do as you're told. Don't lament to me about your poor choices, I'm sorry. We get over things and keep it moving, the way of the world. Being jaded from a past experience is foolish. If that was the case for me, I'd be a lesbian and keep it simple. Speaking of which my tattooed seductress is back in Florida (hurray!). Communication is the key, especially limits with a girl like me because I am going to do whatever the fuck I want, sadly. So letting me know these things is good for you. As stated on another thread, having a starter toy collection eliminates guesswork for a lot of Dommes because it's like "ah yes, he can take an inch more of this or go from shibari to suspension in no time! It just kind of helps, especially saying "I am a virgin to blah blah", or my pain threshold for x is y. It kind of makes me not have to pause and actually think while I'm trying to devour you. [:D]

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 9:33:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy That's not what I meant really. I will discuss what my likes/dislikes/limits are beforehand and at great length, of course. I'm not expecting someone to read my mind. I just can't tell someone how to actually dominate me. They can have all of the information but they may not listen, know what to do with it, or the connection just isn't there. The spark, the chemistry....whatever you want to call that magical ingredient that makes things click just isn't there. I don't think it can be learnt or taught. I agree with this. For me, it goes back to "he might be a great Dom for someone else..." While I certainly do appreciate how difficult it is to be a Dom...sometimes the chemistry just isn't there. In my experience, the term "topping from the bottom" has been used when someone is just incapable of understanding that lack of chemistry really is no one's "fault"...it just is. Some people have issues with accepting that. quote: ORIGINAL: UnholyBear I seriously have to wonder how many times a person is falsely accused of topping from the bottom when in fact, it is simply the bottom being openly giving feedback? How else is a top/dominant supposed to know what they are doing is pleasurable unless the bottom expresses that? edited to add: too often I see this issue as someone either not listening or ignoring the feedback which was expected from them in the first place..... My non-scientific answer would be "quite frequently". Especially in the beginning stages of a relationship, when the parties are learning about each other. Frankly, if someone asks for, and is expecting my feedback, they will get it. While I may appreciate the amount of time and effort the Dom has put into everything, that doesn't take away from the fact that I may very well have hated what went on. I used to be a lot more reticent about "saying something" in terms of negative feedback. I now realize that expressing this is integral to the relationship, if it is going to proceed.

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 10:35:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko Topping from the bottom is mentioned frequently because it happens frequently in my experience. Really? I'm not sure I follow. How do the submissives take the lead away from dominants frequently. Although I am a switch, I don't ever have this happen when it is not intended, or not in a specific scene. quote: No one is perfectly submissive or obedient from right off the street, building a relationship, even a professional one of respect and trust takes time. Perhaps it is your wording, but I'm not sure I understand the concept of perfectly submissive. Do you mean perfectly obedient? ABLE to follow each direction? Because, although I find submissives need training to do things my way, I do not accept less than perfectly submissive (to my eyes) pets. quote: I also find that for some reason, many Dommes feel compelled to come to the defense of subs very quickly without realizing they often don't need defending. Do you see my original OP as defending submissives? If you do, I'm curious. Because I don't really see it that way at all. I see it more as calling out for dominants to hold themselves to a higher standard, and to stop complaining that submissives are taking the lead, when it should be impossible (or at least incredibly undesirable) for them to do so. quote: I know there are abusive and unreasonable Dommes, avoid, otherwise accept and do as you're told. Don't lament to me about your poor choices, I'm sorry. We get over things and keep it moving, the way of the world. quote: As stated on another thread, having a starter toy collection eliminates guesswork for a lot of Dommes because it's like "ah yes, he can take an inch more of this or go from shibari to suspension in no time! It just kind of helps, especially saying "I am a virgin to blah blah", or my pain threshold for x is y. It kind of makes me not have to pause and actually think while I'm trying to devour you. [:D] I have to admit, I'm not quite following where these words are going or coming from. What does it have to do with the topic of topping from the bottom? quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug In my experience, the term "topping from the bottom" has been used when someone is just incapable of understanding that lack of chemistry really is no one's "fault"...it just is. Some people have issues with accepting that. This is a very good point. Thank you.

GoddessManko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 10:55:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy That's not what I meant really. I will discuss what my likes/dislikes/limits are beforehand and at great length, of course. I'm not expecting someone to read my mind. I just can't tell someone how to actually dominate me. They can have all of the information but they may not listen, know what to do with it, or the connection just isn't there. The spark, the chemistry....whatever you want to call that magical ingredient that makes things click just isn't there. I don't think it can be learnt or taught. I agree with this. For me, it goes back to "he might be a great Dom for someone else..." While I certainly do appreciate how difficult it is to be a Dom...sometimes the chemistry just isn't there. In my experience, the term "topping from the bottom" has been used when someone is just incapable of understanding that lack of chemistry really is no one's "fault"...it just is. Some people have issues with accepting that. Agreed completely. Unfortunately some people think it's a "you just show up and the magic happens!" kind of scenario without realizing there has to be actual effort for the interest to not dissipate. There are also cases when someone is a wonderful person but I would rather gnaw off my own arm than to have them as my sub. This has happened. Love them as people though. quote: ORIGINAL: UnholyBear I seriously have to wonder how many times a person is falsely accused of topping from the bottom when in fact, it is simply the bottom being openly giving feedback? How else is a top/dominant supposed to know what they are doing is pleasurable unless the bottom expresses that? edited to add: too often I see this issue as someone either not listening or ignoring the feedback which was expected from them in the first place..... quote: My non-scientific answer would be "quite frequently". Especially in the beginning stages of a relationship, when the parties are learning about each other. Frankly, if someone asks for, and is expecting my feedback, they will get it. While I may appreciate the amount of time and effort the Dom has put into everything, that doesn't take away from the fact that I may very well have hated what went on. I used to be a lot more reticent about "saying something" in terms of negative feedback. I now realize that expressing this is integral to the relationship, if it is going to proceed. With play partners this won't happen because it's just a kink release before we go our separate ways, when someone is desiring a relationship then those odds change drastically because you want someone you can tolerate on a day to day basis in a semipermanent to permanent time. Some people will drop all standards for themselves, and titles to be happily or even compromisingly (unhappily) coupled (especially submissive men coupling with vanilla women). I think in any situation your partner should be aware of your sexual preferences and the kink world is so vast that I'm gonna state why I don't really feel a D can go wrong unless a total idiot if you put the vanilla interests aside and it's a slam dunk there. I am going to be frank, most Doms if they are as experienced as they claim, should like about 1000 kinks while most subs like maybe 4. Why? Because well at least for me, I switch it up depending on who I am with, different hard limits, soft limits, more advanced, less advanced, not a pain slut, is a pain slut, etc. So we tend to have a ton of flexibility in such regard. Who wants to do the same thing over and over again? Not in this lifestyle, too much to explore. So with that in consideration a D MIGHT have more experience with a wider variety of kinks than any given sub. I might be young but I have done almost anything someone can think of kink wise as a Domme. And I shouldn't have to even say that. There's an actual process of getting to know me in order to figure that part out. For some reason only two types of very specific men who turn me on. And they are very, very different and it's mostly personality traits vs anything else. Kink and sex are one in the same for me as far as their gratification but in either direction with singular person I'm like a freight train, it's like "this is the expressline, no stops, switching it up etc". Both are equally euphoric. I would not switch with my sub however.

GoddessManko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 11:05:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko Topping from the bottom is mentioned frequently because it happens frequently in my experience. Really? I'm not sure I follow. How do the submissives take the lead away from dominants frequently. Although I am a switch, I don't ever have this happen when it is not intended, or not in a specific scene. This is during the getting to know you part, emails, texts, where 95% of them get eliminated. quote: quote: No one is perfectly submissive or obedient from right off the street, building a relationship, even a professional one of respect and trust takes time. Perhaps it is your wording, but I'm not sure I understand the concept of perfectly submissive. Do you mean perfectly obedient? ABLE to follow each direction? Because, although I find submissives need training to do things my way, I do not accept less than perfectly submissive (to my eyes) pets. Agreed but there is that general, "hi, I'm the person you've been talking to" first meeting which is where if it gets to that point, lots of in depth questions are asked and there is a "feeling out" of personalities. Some can submit from afar, I have had them do so but speaking in a "let's meet offline and do this" scenario. Also precisely, do things my way. They need to be informed of your preferences and expectations. Before that even happens they have to be RECEPTIVE and I find healthy submission is cultivated, not when they are submitting to everyone in their family and you are the last and very least. (Met subs like this with their kids primarily). quote: quote: I also find that for some reason, many Dommes feel compelled to come to the defense of subs very quickly without realizing they often don't need defending. Do you see my original OP as defending submissives? If you do, I'm curious. Because I don't really see it that way at all. I see it more as calling out for dominants to hold themselves to a higher standard, and to stop complaining that submissives are taking the lead, when it should be impossible (or at least incredibly undesirable) for them to do so. Not your OP directly but speaking in generalities. I find that "Domly ones" are as valid as all of us, it only takes one person who enjoys whatever they enjoy to make it happen. quote: quote: I know there are abusive and unreasonable Dommes, avoid, otherwise accept and do as you're told. Don't lament to me about your poor choices, I'm sorry. We get over things and keep it moving, the way of the world. quote: As stated on another thread, having a starter toy collection eliminates guesswork for a lot of Dommes because it's like "ah yes, he can take an inch more of this or go from shibari to suspension in no time! It just kind of helps, especially saying "I am a virgin to blah blah", or my pain threshold for x is y. It kind of makes me not have to pause and actually think while I'm trying to devour you. [:D] I have to admit, I'm not quite following where these words are going or coming from. What does it have to do with the topic of topping from the bottom? Lots, subs usually try to give me two kinds of kinks they are fond of, I dislike this because I feel like I am being coerced which not only turns me off but it agitates me. I differ from a lot of female Dommes in this regard. I need an actual power exchange, not a fetish wish list. If they have a collection of toys that hints to me what they've done and preferences, way better for them. No idea why you didn't see the connection. It is a foundational part of my domming methods. quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug In my experience, the term "topping from the bottom" has been used when someone is just incapable of understanding that lack of chemistry really is no one's "fault"...it just is. Some people have issues with accepting that. quote: This is a very good point. Thank you. Sometimes, sometimes not. It like all things is relative but agreed for the most part.

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 11:12:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes Because, although I find submissives need training to do things my way, I do not accept less than perfectly submissive (to my eyes) pets. This is a very interesting comment. I've been avoiding using the cliche of "square peg in a round hole", but I really do think that it's apt here. While I do agree that forging any type of relationship takes time, I do believe that people really do know if it's got the potential to work from the get-go. The waters get muddied when we really start thinking about it. I've had situations where I've wanted something to work so badly that I've ignored the basic principle of relationships...that they should not be "confusing". Once I start saying, "well, ok, I can change this about myself", it's done. It's the "square peg, round hole" thing. Of course, all relationships have a learning curve. But, there has to be a foundation to work with. In my experience, that foundation is a hell of a lot more than me identifying myself as "submissive" and him as a "Dominant". Yeah...pretty basic stuff...but stuff that people very often overlook. In the context of this, I have been thinking of my man. While we are in the early stages of our relationship, and we are certainly still learning a lot about each other... evidently there's enough of a "foundation" that he sees in me, and I see in him...to make the learning a really, really pleasant experience. While I may be the worst submissive in the eyes of some...apparently I "work" for him. He doesn't have to work to make me submissive. I just am...at least in his eyes. And, this works for me. If someone felt the need to "mold" me into what they view as their "perfect submissive", it's just not going to work. IMO, if people constantly are in relationships where the phrase "topping from the bottom" is used, they need to step back and evaluate things. Is there a particular type of person you're attracting? Are you believing that because you are the "Dominant" or "submissive", there should be a particular order to things, no matter the individuals involved?

GoddessManko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 11:34:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes Because, although I find submissives need training to do things my way, I do not accept less than perfectly submissive (to my eyes) pets. This is a very interesting comment. I've been avoiding using the cliche of "square peg in a round hole", but I really do think that it's apt here. While I do agree that forging any type of relationship takes time, I do believe that people really do know if it's got the potential to work from the get-go. The waters get muddied when we really start thinking about it. I've had situations where I've wanted something to work so badly that I've ignored the basic principle of relationships...that they should not be "confusing". Once I start saying, "well, ok, I can change this about myself", it's done. It's the "square peg, round hole" thing. Of course, all relationships have a learning curve. But, there has to be a foundation to work with. In my experience, that foundation is a hell of a lot more than me identifying myself as "submissive" and him as a "Dominant". Yeah...pretty basic stuff...but stuff that people very often overlook. In the context of this, I have been thinking of my man. While we are in the early stages of our relationship, and we are certainly still learning a lot about each other... evidently there's enough of a "foundation" that he sees in me, and I see in him...to make the learning a really, really pleasant experience. While I may be the worst submissive in the eyes of some...apparently I "work" for him. He doesn't have to work to make me submissive. I just am...at least in his eyes. And, this works for me. If someone felt the need to "mold" me into what they view as their "perfect submissive", it's just not going to work. IMO, if people constantly are in relationships where the phrase "topping from the bottom" is used, they need to step back and evaluate things. Is there a particular type of person you're attracting? Are you believing that because you are the "Dominant" or "submissive", there should be a particular order to things, no matter the individuals involved? Your dynamic to me, is pretty amazing. Because I prefer having a sub who enjoys being an individual and can keep up with me in conversation and banter. I don't think anyone wants a "mindless sub" for an actual relationship. That is a myth fed to subs for some asshole to green light their bs. The same way some subs use the same excuse for just fucking sucking as a submissive. Obviously you are a great sub because you found someone who accepts you entirely. And that is the key. I have had subs develop a complex from me saying "you didn't pull out the chair, open the door for me". I have had to reprimand a vanilla man for this a total of zero times. These are just the basics in my mind so if a sub cannot handle criticism then, no. This only comes out post meeting and spending time together because everyone promises the moon and stars of course. There is an issue of honesty in both scenarios where "you want a mindless sub" or "you are topping from the bottom" is used without reason. To justify being sucky. Sorry but sucky is the best adjective for this. If you want to be a sub but cannot follow directions, it would indicate to me it's not going to work. If you are a constant source of problems and headaches vs relief and comfort, not gonna work. Just some common sense things that help guide me along.

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 11:38:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko This is during the getting to know you part, emails, texts, where 95% of them get eliminated. Ah. Ok. To be clear, I don't see that as topping from the bottom, because it's still negotiations for me. But at least now I see your point. smiles Thank you. quote: Agreed but there is that general, "hi, I'm the person you've been talking to" first meeting which is where if it gets to that point, lots of in depth questions are asked and there is a "feeling out" of personalities. Some can submit from afar, I have had them do so but speaking in a "let's meet offline and do this" scenario. Also precisely, do things my way. They need to be informed of your preferences and expectations. Before that even happens they have to be RECEPTIVE and I find healthy submission is cultivated, not when they are submitting to everyone in their family and you are the last and very least. (Met subs like this with their kids primarily). Gotcha. Again, taking a completely different path than my brain, and entirely different experience. Thank you for clarifying. quote: Not your OP directly but speaking in generalities. I find that "Domly ones" are as valid as all of us, it only takes one person who enjoys whatever they enjoy to make it happen. Ok. quote: Lots, subs usually try to give me two kinds of kinks they are fond of, I dislike this because I feel like I am being coerced which not only turns me off but it agitates me. I differ from a lot of female Dommes in this regard. I need an actual power exchange, not a fetish wish list. If they have a collection of toys that hints to me what they've done and preferences, way better for them. No idea why you didn't see the connection. It is a foundational part of my domming methods. OK. I didn't see the connection, because it seems to me that you are still talking of the meeting and negotiation. I don't see that topping from the bottom can happen until there is an actual power dynamic that has been agreed upon, so I am beyond the trial phases. I don't care if someone comes to me with a list. That's their way of doing things. It's not mine. Incompatible. But, not topping from the bottom, because they never made it to "bottom" for me. Again, thanks for clarifying. quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug While I may be the worst submissive in the eyes of some...apparently I "work" for him. He doesn't have to work to make me submissive. I just am...at least in his eyes. And, this works for me. If someone felt the need to "mold" me into what they view as their "perfect submissive", it's just not going to work. This is a beautiful example, and perfectly indicative of what I mean. IMO, if people constantly are in relationships where the phrase "topping from the bottom" is used, they need to step back and evaluate things. Is there a particular type of person you're attracting? Are you believing that because you are the "Dominant" or "submissive", there should be a particular order to things, no matter the individuals involved? Agreed.

SweetForDaddy -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 12:07:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Sometimes it is just a matter of, as E.T. put it so succinctly, they can only lead if you follow and once you consent to follow, you forfeit all rights to bitch. I would add, until the next discussion/negotiation takes place. I don't agree with that at all. I would only consent to TRY something though, if that something was new to the relationship. And I would make damn sure that it was agreed if I couldn't handle it that it would stop right then, not when the next negotiation took place. By the time the next negotiation took place the damage may have been done. I'm totally wary of trying new things.

GoddessManko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 12:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Sometimes it is just a matter of, as E.T. put it so succinctly, they can only lead if you follow and once you consent to follow, you forfeit all rights to bitch. I would add, until the next discussion/negotiation takes place. I don't agree with that at all. I would only consent to TRY something though, if that something was new to the relationship. And I would make damn sure that it was agreed if I couldn't handle it that it would stop right then, not when the next negotiation took place. By the time the next negotiation took place the damage may have been done. I'm totally wary of trying new things. Smart, and generally this is fun for Me personally if I can introduce a sub to something new and they loveeeeee it, which has happened more times than not. Virgins are especially fun in a no pressure kinkster setting. I feel like with anything new or iffy there should be some level of discussion because I might be spanking you now, but you might be completely shocked at what I have done to others based on their "starting point". It just means I like you enough to not care about letting certain kinks go. Which I can imagine is the same for most Dommes. Some say "no cbt", "no nipple play". It comes with the territory, there is no negotiation on hard limits and if it comes into question after trust is established, the sub's decision should be respected. You don't take a pear and try to make it an apple. Foolish pursuit. quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes OK. I didn't see the connection, because it seems to me that you are still talking of the meeting and negotiation. I don't see that topping from the bottom can happen until there is an actual power dynamic that has been agreed upon, so I am beyond the trial phases. I don't care if someone comes to me with a list. That's their way of doing things. It's not mine. Incompatible. But, not topping from the bottom, because they never made it to "bottom" for me. Again, thanks for clarifying. Precisely, on other threads the advice to "teach that defiant sub a lesson or you're not a real Domme" was given. There is no real "bottom" at this point because of incompatibility, but they do self identify as "submissive". Partly why my position is generalized and not specific. My perspective is that the Domme would be relinquishing power by doing just that, especially for someone they just met and not on their own terms.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 12:23:53 PM)
~FR Okay, this is taking a wrong turn. Negotiations are negotiations. The topic is TFTB. If your bottom is saying, "Hey! Fucker, I've been mauled better by miniature house pets." He/she isn't TFTB, they are illustrating that you are fucking up... not meeting their needs. Nookies OP covered many details, but lets get down to what everyone is poking at: At what point, after negotiation, is TFTB occurring in casual BDSM play? At what point, after negotiation, is TFTB occurring in intimate BDSM play? At what point, after negotiation, is TFTB occurring in a D/s dynamic?

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