RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More

RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

SweetForDaddy -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 2:45:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy Nothing was mentioned about safe words though. All that was mentioned that consent was given and that the right to bitch was forfeited. I read it as - suck it up, not use a safe-word if you're unhappy. Seriously? Yes, seriously and I could be wrong but I don't think I would be alone in thinking that with how it was written. Nothing was mentioned about safe words and I don't know you. I may think differently now you have said about the safe-word but from the first statement that you wrote and when it was quoted by CD it came across that way to me.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 3:01:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy Nothing was mentioned about safe words though. All that was mentioned that consent was given and that the right to bitch was forfeited. I read it as - suck it up, not use a safe-word if you're unhappy. Seriously? Yes, seriously and I could be wrong but I don't think I would be alone in thinking that with how it was written. Nothing was mentioned about safe words and I don't know you. I may think differently now you have said about the safe-word but from the first statement that you wrote and when it was quoted by CD it came across that way to me. Well, regardless (irregardless for the grammar nazi's) in WIITWD, there are bare bones rules that we all, in theory, adhere to. Consent, in what ever acronym set you want use, is paramount. Furthermore, the more casual the more important the safe-word. In a dungeon setting it is easy to enforce a safe word... unless it is peopled by a bunch of slack jawed mama's boys... and in private casual play you damn sure better have some awareness of your partner and a level in trust that they will not violate the safe word. The deeper and more intimate the relationship, the more likely the safe-word becomes shelved or just fades into nonexistence because there is no need for it... case and point; InHisHeart's dynamic. The OP is about TPFB, and I'll spank her ass red later for not diagraming the obvious rules, and a debate over perceptions and perspectives of TPFB. If you are very new, which is okay, not everyone is born spank... wait... with kinky knowledge... you came to the right place to gather information on how to safely pursue your desires and what rules and guidelines you could expect in kink communities across the board, the sacredness of the safe word spans the globe in a kinky public setting. So the interaction over the OP was based on the premise that the safe word was viable and present, though not articulated. In most dynamics, regardless of level and depth, a safe word always ends things. Sometimes it ends a scene, and for some hardcore BDSM folks, it ends their relationship.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 3:12:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InHisHeart Within every day D/s dynamic, I don't question a decision he makes or try to get him to change his decision. The only time I will question his decision or tell him I feel doing this instead of that would be better is if there's a very good reason to do so. In this part of your response is where I feel the opposite side of the TFTB phenomenon comes in. My lady, Beth, spent twenty years, working in the banking industry. While I have financial advisers and investment counselors looking after my money for me, when it comes to day-to-day finance decisions (banking and loans, etc.; not my personal spending habits, per se), I *expect* her to let me know when I may be going astray. I think there are some submissives who are so "fearful" (please take note of the quotation marks) of being accused of TFTB or of having their submission called into question, otherwise that they will stand mute to the detriment of their dominant, themselves and the relationship. Being dominant doesn't make me all-knowing and it certainly isn't license to be so arrogant and then, avoid the consequences. The way I see it, part of her, serving me is to let me know when I'm about to fuck up even the smallest decision. Yes, her opinion should be expressed in private (unless public "outing" is completely unavoidable due to time constraints or what-have-you) but I need my lady to bring whatever her expertise or life experience is to the table, in order that I can have enough evidence to make an *informed* decision. Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 3:17:14 PM)
Ahh...the safe word...such an interesting thing.... The more I read and experience, the more I realize that it's not even close to a "universal" thing. While, IMO, great in concept...it's a bit nebulous in practice. Personally, I've only used it in a "play" situation. LOL...in my experience, the negotiation over "what should be the safe word" is about as heated as limits, etc. Yup...try to convince a "west coaster" that the words should be "New York" and "Yankees"... Seriously though, in speaking from my experience (which is all I can speak from)...."safe words" don't work in relationships. Well, they may, in a particular context....but overall, nothing takes the place of actual interaction. Wondering where the assumption comes from that the person who brought this up was "new"....

CreativeDominant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 3:26:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Sometimes it is just a matter of, as E.T. put it so succinctly, they can only lead if you follow and once you consent to follow, you forfeit all rights to bitch. I would add, until the next discussion/negotiation takes place. I don't agree with that at all. I would only consent to TRY something though, if that something was new to the relationship. And I would make damn sure that it was agreed if I couldn't handle it that it would stop right then, not when the next negotiation took place. By the time the next negotiation took place the damage may have been done. I'm totally wary of trying new things. Understandable...if you ignore everything I wrote before that. BUT...BEFORE I stated the above, I stated that there was discussion and negotiation of a thorough nature before consent so that nothing that comes up after consent is given is a surprise. I ALSO stated that a big problem comes in when the dominant goes off the agreed-upon pages. Perhaps I should have added in "without discussion first". If I hadn't stated all of the above before I stated the part you quoted, I'd agree with you. And, to go further, if there are dominants who don't discuss and negotiate and make sure that there's a clear understanding of what's to take place or dominants who go off the page without discussion...especially with a new partner...then the submissive has not only the right but the obligation to speak up. But I still have the right to withdraw my consent at any time, discussion or no discussion beforehand. Even when things are discussed in the minutest detail it can go bad, or I could change my mind, or it might not be how I thought it was going to be. I probably wouldn't but having my consent at one moment doesn't mean you keep my consent if I'm feeling unhappy during and want to stop, or that I forfeit any rights. There's no way to be absolutely certain everything will go to plan. If only there was a pre-negotiated word in place that would allow you to withdraw consent... Hmmmm... I'm off to the lab to work this part out. Nothing was mentioned about safe words though. All that was mentioned that consent was given and that the right to bitch was forfeited. I read it as - suck it up, not use a safe-word if you're unhappy. Thats because we're not talking about safewords, were talking about attempting to top from the bottom. In my mind they are two different things. I see "safewording" as an understandable, necessary part of the dynamic. But...when "safewording" is used NOT for the purpose intended but to exert control through a device put in place for safety of all sorts...physical, mental, emotional...then that is NOT safewording, that is an attempt to top from the bottom. I've had a submissive use "yellow" when things were getting too intense and "red" when I hit a trigger one night with a submissive that neither she nor I were aware of. Both reasonable examples of why "safewords" are in use. I've also had a sub use "red" and when asked what was wrong, she told me that what I was doing that day was not exciting her...this despite the fact that she'd entered into the situation knowing it wasn't ALWAYS ABOUT her. That's an unreasonable use of a safeword.

SweetForDaddy -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 3:39:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug Ahh...the safe word...such an interesting thing.... The more I read and experience, the more I realize that it's not even close to a "universal" thing. While, IMO, great in concept...it's a bit nebulous in practice. Personally, I've only used it in a "play" situation. LOL...in my experience, the negotiation over "what should be the safe word" is about as heated as limits, etc. Yup...try to convince a "west coaster" that the words should be "New York" and "Yankees"... Seriously though, in speaking from my experience (which is all I can speak from)...."safe words" don't work in relationships. Well, they may, in a particular context....but overall, nothing takes the place of actual interaction. Wondering where the assumption comes from that the person who brought this up was "new".... I've never used a safe-word and I don't do casual play. I've had them in place a couple of times but they just don't work for me, it doesn't occur to me to say it when I'm in a certain head space. I will tell any prospective partners that they don't work for me and that if I need to stop I'm probably going do it how it comes naturally to me - like "I need to stop for a minute" or whatever. I don't play the no means yes kind of games so it hasn't ever been a problem to do it that way.

alicia06 -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 3:46:58 PM)
hi

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 5:35:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant Hey, I r tha dominate of dominates. And now, I shall refer you to the grammar thread... quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy Nothing was mentioned about safe words though. All that was mentioned that consent was given and that the right to bitch was forfeited. I read it as - suck it up, not use a safe-word if you're unhappy. Actually, you are completely missing the point. CreativeDominant was referring to what E.T. said about DOMINANTS giving over leadership, then bitching about it being TFTB. It had nothing to do with submissives giving consent to any sort of play not being allowed to bitch. quote: ORIGINAL: Charles6682 I agree a lot with what the OP said. Well said! Thank you. The check is in the mail! grins quote: ORIGINAL: InHisHeart I don't do casual play so no comment there. The following are just my take on TFTB. During intimate BDSM play would be stopping him from doing X when it is not a hard limit and there's no good legitimate reason for me to stop him. If I'm not in the mood for X or I don't feel like playing tonight or it's something I might not particularly like, that's not a reason to stop him from doing it or trying to change the pace and get him to do Y or Z instead of X. He calls the shots, period! There are times he asks me what I want but whether it happens or not is up to him. If it doesn't happen, I don't challenge him on it, I don't pout or throw a hissy fit. Within every day D/s dynamic, I don't question a decision he makes or try to get him to change his decision. The only time I will question his decision or tell him I feel doing this instead of that would be better is if there's a very good reason to do so. Good answers. Thank you! quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr The way I see it, part of her, serving me is to let me know when I'm about to fuck up even the smallest decision. Yes, her opinion should be expressed in private (unless public "outing" is completely unavoidable due to time constraints or what-have-you) but I need my lady to bring whatever her expertise or life experience is to the table, in order that I can have enough evidence to make an *informed* decision. Agreed.

SweetForDaddy -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 6:07:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy Nothing was mentioned about safe words though. All that was mentioned that consent was given and that the right to bitch was forfeited. I read it as - suck it up, not use a safe-word if you're unhappy. Actually, you are completely missing the point. CreativeDominant was referring to what E.T. said about DOMINANTS giving over leadership, then bitching about it being TFTB. It had nothing to do with submissives giving consent to any sort of play not being allowed to bitch. Looking at it again I can see that you are right and I feel like a bit of a dick. Sorry dominant people that I picked on for no reason!

UnholyBear -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/1/2014 8:07:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant At what point, after negotiation, is TFTB occurring in casual BDSM play? In my mind I don't see TFTB occurring. [ quote: At what point, after negotiation, is TFTB occurring in intimate BDSM play? I don't see it occurring. quote: At what point, after negotiation, is TFTB occurring in a D/s dynamic? And once again I still don't see it occurring. I still continue to view, what too many people are too quick to assume TFTB is in reality poor communication, lack of communication or even the people involved are simply not a good fit for each other. I do engage in casual play and each it was with someone who I know yet we may not have played before. In each case, we did run through basic negotiations that pertained to the play session upcoming and yes, I will speak up and state whether what they are doing is enjoyable or if I am feeling too overwhelmed and need a break. The same applies to when I have topped another.

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/2/2014 3:10:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy Looking at it again I can see that you are right and I feel like a bit of a dick. Sorry dominant people that I picked on for no reason! LOL! Yeah, Us dominants can handle it. You make an excellent point, for another topic, though. smiles quote: ORIGINAL: UnholyBear I still continue to view, what too many people are too quick to assume TFTB is in reality poor communication, lack of communication or even the people involved are simply not a good fit for each other. I agree. And so for me, the same actions that might lead to TFTB for someone else, leads to me talking with my bottom, or changing my original intent to better suit myself and how I see things progressing. I have never labeled anything TFTB.

UnholyBear -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/2/2014 7:20:00 AM)
@NookieNotes, come to think of it, I don't recall I had ever labelled anyone TFTB. Granted even in a casual play setting when I have agreed/submitted to the top and after we talk about boundaries and limits, I simply hand myself over to them with the trust that they will abide by the agreed upon boundaries and we are good to go!

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/2/2014 8:11:01 AM)
Yes, exactly. smiles

EmpressElsa -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 9:00:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes So, do you think topping from the bottom is, by definition, intentional? Or could someone top from the bottom without understanding, simply trying to get needs met? I think it is often intentional, especially with experienced /s types; I do believe that it can be unintentional with newer people, and in those cases an explanation and correction should alleviate the problem.

theshytype -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 10:49:18 AM)
Ok. First off. I love you for your OP. I laughed, I cried. Okay, not so much cry. But you're funny and I like it. Now. TFTB - yeah, I'd totally do this if I thought the term made sense. Why? Because if I'm not getting what I need, I'll ask for it in such a way that I'm not asking for it. Call it manipulative, I guess. Is it really manipulative though if he knows exactly what I'm doing and why? And if he's the top, does he have to give in? Only if he wants to. So, again, I'm not really in control now am I? I'm not asking for or taking the control - that's not what I would want. I don't expect him to read my mind no matter how well he knows me and nothing says mood killer or ego-boost drainer like "hey, I'm not getting what I need". I still don't see much difference if the two don't know each other well enough to know when one is being manipulative (is it really that difficult?) and if the bottom should throw a pebble in the road, isn't it still up to the top to decide whether to pick it up, kick it, or walk around and away from it? So, you can say I agree with you. Because I do. A bit of honesty, if I may: When I first heard the term I assumed it was literal, that the top was in the bottom of a sexual position. Thankfully, I had been only lurking at that time. Otherwise, my response to that thread would have been quite more idiotic than my usual.

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 11:56:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theshytype Ok. First off. I love you for your OP. I laughed, I cried. Okay, not so much cry. But you're funny and I like it. I'll take the laughing. I'm not much of a sadist, anyway. quote: Now. TFTB - yeah, I'd totally do this if I thought the term made sense. Why? Because if I'm not getting what I need, I'll ask for it in such a way that I'm not asking for it. Call it manipulative, I guess. Is it really manipulative though if he knows exactly what I'm doing and why? And if he's the top, does he have to give in? Only if he wants to. So, again, I'm not really in control now am I? Yes, that is my point. quote: I don't expect him to read my mind no matter how well he knows me and nothing says mood killer or ego-boost drainer like "hey, I'm not getting what I need". I have to disagree with you. Not much is sexier to me than a submissive who speaks up and communicates. Of course, I still make the decisions, but KNOWING can make a lot of difference. <soapbox>So, to you, I would say: I hope you do try communication at some point, because the trust and sexiness that can develop from 100% openness and honesty is fucking incredible. </soapbox> quote: I still don't see much difference if the two don't know each other well enough to know when one is being manipulative (is it really that difficult?) and if the bottom should throw a pebble in the road, isn't it still up to the top to decide whether to pick it up, kick it, or walk around and away from it? Perfectly agreed. quote: A bit of honesty, if I may: When I first heard the term I assumed it was literal, that the top was in the bottom of a sexual position. Thankfully, I had been only lurking at that time. Otherwise, my response to that thread would have been quite more idiotic than my usual. grins

smileforme50 -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 3:05:23 PM)
<snip> from DaddySatyr quote: I think there are some submissives who are so "fearful" (please take note of the quotation marks) of being accused of TFTB or of having their submission called into question, otherwise that they will stand mute to the detriment of their dominant, themselves and the relationship. This is where I find myself very often....sometimes in "real life" but also in hypothetical situations By hypothetical situations I mean....I read or hear about things that happen to other subs/slaves and either how they discussed it with their partner, or other people telling them they should discuss it with their partner, and I try to imagine how I would react in that situation. I just have a lot of trouble with the idea of speaking up....and still being submissive..and where the line is when speaking up or expressing my desires isn't seen as being submissive.

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 3:44:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: smileforme50 I just have a lot of trouble with the idea of speaking up....and still being submissive..and where the line is when speaking up or expressing my desires isn't seen as being submissive. I'd like to address this, seeing as how I've suggested you might want to speak up. The rules of engagement are the same for the top and the bottom. The D and the s. However, to be clear, I believe that it is the D's responsibility to begin engagement and make it a safe place full of comfort... however, if they do not for whatever reason, it is up to the s. Here are my rules: 1. Speak casually about fantasies, ideas, viewpoints on different topics and so on THROUGHOUT your relationship. At dinner. Via email. While taking a walk. On the phone during an afternoon coffee break. Make it a habit. This begins to take the sting out of disagreement, and help you find common ground on ideas and concepts when it is NOT a stressful situation. Ways to do this: Read an article online. Forward the link to your partner. Give a thought or two. Ask for their thoughts. Offer to discuss when you are together next. Start a shared Evernote. Put topics for discussion in there. Pull one out when you are on a long car ride to discuss and debate. Find pictures you think are sexy. Share them, and say what you love about them. Ask about fantasies. Find out not just what they are but WHY they find them sexy. 2. DO NOT JUDGE. You may not like something. You may not understand it. Do not judge the worth of a person by their thoughts. Thoughts are thoughts. Their actions are why you are with them. We all have crazy thoughts. We all have bizarre, even depraved fantasies. If you want to be safe with them, let them be safe with you. Ways to do this: Acknowledge what they said. Repeat it back, "I heard you say you think about XXX sometimes and it makes you hot." When you have it right, ask if there is more, "Is there more to it?" Listen, and repeat. 3. When angry or upset, set the topic aside. It's HARD to be civil and logical and even to really say what you mean when your adrenaline is rushing. Don't break down all of your hard work communicating by saying things you don't mean. You will, sometimes, but avoid it when possible. As soon as an argument gets to the point of talking in circles, it's time to pause it and set it aside for when your temperatures have cooled. Ways to do this: Ask for a day to think about what you really mean to say. Drop the argument with no hard feelings. If they have hard feelings, understand. Just be as gentle as possible. FOLLOW UP when you say you will. If you are still upset, ask for more time, and follow up again when you say you will. Consider following up in a different medium. If the argument was by phone, consider following up in person. If in person, consider following up by email. 4. If something is wrong in the middle of something. Go out of your way to make it clear that it's not personal. Sometimes, something you like every other day does not feel right. It may be your cycle, or a medication you're taking. It may be that you've just decided you don't like it. This is your body and your decision, not their fault. Make that clear. Do not give into the temptation to cast blame. Ways to do this: "Oh. Damn. I usually love when you do that. Today, for some reason, my pussy is very sensitive, and I can't take you that deep. Can we try another position? It's really hurting me." Really show your disappointment. Or, if it's just not something you like, stay calm. Make sure you communicate your real feelings. Do NOT use the word "but" if you can avoid it. For example, "Damn. I usually love when you do that, but today, for some reason..." But often signifies that everything said before the word is untruthful. (Next Day) "Last night, we did XYZ for the third time this month. It's not my favorite, and I'm hoping you can tell me what you love about it so much." smiles These are a few tips off the top of my head. I hope they help a bit.

smileforme50 -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 5:15:41 PM)
Yeah....my problem is that I can't sugar coat shit. If I think he's being a dumb fuck and I'm sick of him trying to shove his cock down my throat so I can't breathe....I'm just going to tell him point blank.

PandoraFoxxx -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (12/4/2014 5:33:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: smileforme50 Yeah....my problem is that I can't sugar coat shit. If I think he's being a dumb fuck and I'm sick of him trying to shove his cock down my throat so I can't breathe....I'm just going to tell him point blank. There's a distinct difference between sugar coating things and communicating in a respectful manner. If you can't set aside your irritation and communicate in the proper manner (ie being cordial and polite like a human being) and opening up a place for dialogue about what bothers you and setting up the scene for an enjoyable experience for both of you, then you are just being as rude as you view his behaviour. It's the same with D/s interaction as it is with any other interaction. If you choose to be a bitch then chances are you're going to be treated with less respect.

Page: << < prev 3 4 5 [6] 7 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

6.445313E-02