Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More

Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (Full Version)

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NookieNotes -> Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 7:36:50 AM)
The term "topping from the bottom" is thrown about by Won Twoo Wayists the way that "Did you find everything you were looking for?" is tossed out by grocery store check clerks, and with the sneering disdain usually reserved for the 'poor, unaware vanillas.' Submissives and slaves are told, "You're topping from the bottom. You're not a real ______!" But why? What is this 'topping from the bottom', and why is it so heinous a crime? Let's rip this shit open! Urban Dictionary defines topping from the bottom as: quote: In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. The person on the bottom (submissive/slave) is leading. Oh mi godz, the horrors! Oh wait. No, I don't feel that way. In fact, I'm really just feeling that people who use this term as an insult are asshole-ing. (asshole-ing: the verb of being an asshole all over other people, without their consent. Yes, it's a thing. I just made it one.) Perhaps I'm just not getting it. Let's check out that definition again (bold is my emphasis): quote: In its basic, literal sense, it means exactly what it says. The person on the bottom is leading the top, thus technically topping from the bottom. So, the term topping from the bottom means that the bottom/sub/slave is LEADING the Top/Dominant/Master. Well, fuckerooni! No WONDER all the tip-toppy types are all woried! The bitchez is takin' over! Wait. Whut? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I suggest that 'topping from the bottom' be retired as anything but a description of a particular type of scene. Reason the First The main reason: It makes YOU, oh Domly One, look like a fucking idiot. Because you're saying that the submissive has taken the lead from you. Yeah. Read that definition again, then look at those examples. You've lost your lead (if you ever had it). Your respect as a leader. You're not doing your job, filling your role. Your other is stepping up to take it away from you (or never gave it to you to begin with). And you know what? In that case, I say, "Fuck yeah! Good onya!" Because you are obviously not meeting their needs, if they have to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out to get what they want from you. You're asshole-ing from the middle of your own puddle of shit here. Reason The Second If you're saying this to an s-type that you are talking to online, because they are asserting their need to be spoken to as a human being, explaining what they are looking for in a relationship, or refusing to call you "GrandLordWolfyMcDommyPants," until you're actually IN a relationship, you're prematurely asshole-ing. Reason the Third If you're saying it about someone else's dynamic, well then, you're always the asshole for judging that. You're asshole-ing from the sidelines. For the s-Types So, remember when I said to the left side of the slash: Because you are obviously not meeting their needs, if they have to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out to get what they want from you. ?? Well, I'll tell you, it does not reflect well on you to lie, cheat, beg, manipulate, or brat out, ever. I mean, I get it. Avoiding confrontation (or misdirecting it) is a time-honored tradition. But it's not likely to get you what you want. It's just going to confuse the issue and make it even less likely that your real needs will be heard, understood, and met. And that makes you the one asshole-ing. Yeah, even s-types can asshole all over the place. Perceived power or not. You're also asshole-ing just as much as the D-types if you judge other people's dynamics. Just saying. What is the Assholery-Free Use of the phrase 'Topping from the Bottom'? The kind where you are teaching, with a sense of goodwill and mutual benefit. An experienced submissive has a lot to teach. Even an inexperienced submissive can have a lot to teach about his/herself. There is nothing wrong with that teaching. In a scene. In an email. In a discussion. With fireworks, histrionics, manipulation... just teaching. And if you are doing that, clearly communicating your interests, what gives you pleasure, your boundaries, etc, in a helpful and not creepy or whiny way, and some Uber-Dom tells you that you are topping from the bottom, feel free to just walk away. Because they have already lost control of the situation. And are too busy asshole-ing to lead you.

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 8:00:09 AM)
GREAT post. Over the years, I've heard this phrase bandied about..I used to take it seriously, and now, it just becomes a source of a chuckle or two for me. Just recently, I was telling a friend of mine about an evening with my man. Literally, I started the story with "do you think I was topping from the bottom, if...". I went to his place, dressed (on my own accord) in a manner that I knew would end up in the evening proceeding exactly as I wanted it. Oh, I led him exactly the way I wanted to. He told me afterward that what I did was one of his fantasies. I didn't know that at the time...but I was just going with the odds. [:D] Yup...I was, technically, "topping from the bottom". But, since he derived great pleasure out of it, I doubt that anyone would use the phrase...as it is just so damned pejorative. For me, the use of the phrase "topping from the bottom" has been, by and large, the biggest cop-out ever in D/s. When it has been used in my relationships, it's inevitably because there's "something wrong". Usually, it turns out to be a complete lack of communication. Rather than working to get to the heart of the problem, the blame has been shifted toward my end. Essentially, it's him saying "I'm the Dom, that's why" in answer to my question "why?". It's the "Dom" wiping his hands of all responsibility. Again...great post! [:D] To each their own...but, yes, IMO this phrase just needs to be retired for anyone that wants me to take them seriously.

DarkSteven -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 8:20:30 AM)
I've always focused on the third reason. I've never heard anyone use the term for their own relationships. As long as everyone gets their needs met and nobody gets hurt, it's not my place to comment on anyone else's relationship. Another thought: relationships are continually evolving. In some cases, a relationship will change from Dom/sub to switch/switch, or will even flip around and the power changes hands.

catize -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 8:41:12 AM)
IMO, 'topping from the bottom' is a term that should only be used in an S+M scene where one is a maso (bottom) and the other is a sadist (top) The term should not be used in a D/s or M/s relationship. And when I have been accused by on-line strangers of TFTB, I point out it is impossible because without a relationship, there is no bottom to top from.

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 10:17:37 AM)
@littleladybug It seems to me that you provided something he wanted. And that he THEN chose each step to follow through. I don't see that as topping from the bottom, because He was still leading from his side. My boy knows exactly what to do to get certain reactions from me. I have taught him well. He may elicit those reactions, and most of the time, they are perfectly in line with what I would want to do. However, were I to want to have a serious conversation, and he to start fussing about, trying to derail me into sexy times, I would be allowing him to top from the bottom if I gave into to his attempt to lead by letting go of my own desires to have a conversation, especially if I then felt "forced" or resentful after. @DarkSteven I've not heard it applied to people's relationships, but I have heard Doms accuse their own subs of it. Weird, I know, but they seem to think it is a slight against the sub, not against their leadership skills. And yes, relationships do evolve. Hopefully not with accusations or resentments, though. @catize, I agree. Without a relationship, there is no dynamic to upset. smiles

DaddySatyr -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 10:28:07 AM)
I've taken a couple of hours to cogitate on this, now and I think I agree, to a certain extent. I agree that if my lady(/ies) is(/are) topping me from the bottom, I've lost control of the situation. I think there's also some validation to what Steven said; if I have agreed to allow her to cut her hair for whatever reason, in return, I'm probably going to have a lady who is more willing to meet my demands with which she may not entirely be on board. I do think a term is needed to kind of replace this one in the event where a lady has claimed that she wishes to submit but getting even a modicum of actual submission out of her is like trying to get free barrels of crude from OPEC. The reason I'm saying there needs to be a term is that one can run into this type of lady; I think they equate to the "do-me-my-way" male submissives in that they'll submit ... as long as it's something they want to do. That's not submission. Since any relationship (especially early on) is going to have its fair share of mis-steps or mis-starts, it wouldn't be fair to end the relationship at the first sign of this behavior. Obviously, I'm speaking of tolerance and balance. I am not nullifying hard limits, per se. I am saying that there's a reasonable amount of discomfort that any person that calls themselves a submissive should be willing to endure. It's part of the give-and-take. Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 10:28:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes My boy knows exactly what to do to get certain reactions from me. I have taught him well. He may elicit those reactions, and most of the time, they are perfectly in line with what I would want to do. However, were I to want to have a serious conversation, and he to start fussing about, trying to derail me into sexy times, I would be allowing him to top from the bottom if I gave into to his attempt to lead by letting go of my own desires to have a conversation, especially if I then felt "forced" or resentful after. I haven't been with my man long enough to know him like that. I was just going with the "odds" in what I did. While I understand what you are saying about the "serious conversation" times... I don't know that I agree that it's the only place that "topping from the bottom" could be used. While, of course, he "agreed" with what I did last week...does that necessarily mean that he was "leading" at that point? Is "topping from the bottom" only used when there is a conflict?

CreativeDominant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 10:38:58 AM)
Maybe it's because we're close to Christmas and I want to get the orneriness out of my system or I, like shifty in another thread, just want to be a shit-stirrer. (I don't know where it's coming from...I'm usually SO angelic [sm=angel.gif]). When I saw the topic line and read the OK, I thought it might be interesting...since there is no scientific data to back up our opinions, only our own thoughts...to go see if I could find something on the net highway in support of the existence of "topping from the bottom". Again, like our opinions on the subject, these too are only other opinions. I've bolded some parts I thought were important to the context of what is written. From: http://www.submissiveguide.com/2009/01/5-ways-to-recognize-topping-from-the-bottom/ Topping from the bottom is when you simultaneously adopt both roles. This could be in the form of giving commands, refusing requests or moving to control the location of impacts during play. Generally it is frowned upon to try to force the dominant’s hand to do something they do not wish to do. 1. You contradict the decision of your dominant. If you try to change his or her mind about the decision they have made, without a valid reason,® you are topping from the bottom. Examples could range from trying to convince them to use a different toy because you don’t like the one they are using, to asking them if they are sure they want to eat at Joe’s Restaurant when you really want to eat at Donna’s Cafe. 2. You ignore the request or command. This one goes without saying, but pretending you didn’t hear the request and just to carry on doing what you want to do is not appropriate. Acknowledge the request as soon as possible and follow out the command as best you can. You can always go back to what you were doing afterward. The dominant is expecting your service at all times, not just when you want to give it. Topping from the bottom can be non-verbal. 3. You ask “What is in it for me if I do x y z?” Submission isn’t about pleasing you directly. Being directed to do something from your Dominant is to please them, and as my Master always says, “Doing things for me should be your pleasure.” Conditional submission is topping from the bottom and should not exist, you either submit or you don’t. What you get in return is up to your Dominant. Negotiating this in the beginning of the relationship is critical. 4. You pull away from physical contact. This is a tough one, but typically in a D/s relationship you have given over control of your body to your Dominant. This means that if they wish to touch you, that is their right. Telling them with physical withdrawal that you do not wish to be touched is trying to force their decision to touch you. Removing yourself from the situation is topping from the bottom. Learn to accept the attention, no matter what it is; it could develop into a wonderfully intimate time between the two of you. 5. You say “no”.* As a submissive you may hang on to the right to say no, but if the Dominant gives you a reasonable request and it is within your negotiated terms to do, then you shouldn’t say no. Inconveniencing you isn’t a valid excuse. Neither is I don’t want to. Your Dominant has your better interests at heart, but also their desires. Perform the task and then feel good about it. What you just did may have enhanced your relationship, or you just refreshed their coffee. Either way, life is good. *No is an important word in a D/s relationship, but one that shouldn’t be abused. Just like safewords, this word is only to be used in non-negotiated situations or when something needs to be cleared up first. Remember: use sparingly. What do you think? Do you know ways to recognize topping from the bottom that aren’t on this list? Share them in the comments! Again, if you missed it, there are more articles on this topic. Read Why You Should Know the Truth About Topping from the Bottom and Feeding His Dominance is Not Topping from Below! Me again. What do you think of the examples above? As is often stated on here, communication is very important but I think we'd all have to agree that we've all met people in vanilla as well as in D/s who negotiate and then, once they've agreed , sometimes attempt to go around what they've agreed to.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 10:40:26 AM)
I like the logic, but it's inherently flawed. Why?? Because of your basic premise. Namely: "The person on the bottom (submissive/slave) is leading." You are assuming the bottom is the /s. That may not be true. Maybe the D is on the bottom getting their kink on by instructing the /s to go on top. But yes, it usually means the /s is taking command of the D. Sometimes it means the D is losing control. But... it may also be that the /s is out of control and trying to rule the roost. So, who is the wayward one of the two? The D or the /s?? Unless you're a fly on the wall to make that judgement, it could be either. I don't see it quite as one-sided as you do.

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 11:14:49 AM)
CD...that is a fascinating article...really. I'd like to address a couple of the points.... "3. You ask “What is in it for me if I do x y z?” Submission isn’t about pleasing you directly. Being directed to do something from your Dominant is to please them, and as my Master always says, “Doing things for me should be your pleasure.” Conditional submission is topping from the bottom and should not exist, you either submit or you don’t. What you get in return is up to your Dominant. Negotiating this in the beginning of the relationship is critical. " I would EXTREMELY beg to differ with this. Submission IS about my pleasure. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be playing this game. Yes, I like to see him pleased, but yes, I often ask, "what's in it for me?". And, yes, I will often do what I did last week in order to get what I want. Because something like that is not viewed as "negative", it's just written off..which doesn't make sense to me. I know, if I do x, y will happen. That is always in my mind. "4. You pull away from physical contact. This is a tough one, but typically in a D/s relationship you have given over control of your body to your Dominant. This means that if they wish to touch you, that is their right. Telling them with physical withdrawal that you do not wish to be touched is trying to force their decision to touch you. Removing yourself from the situation is topping from the bottom. Learn to accept the attention, no matter what it is; it could develop into a wonderfully intimate time between the two of you." My prior Dom had a Cal King bed, and there were times when that crap was just NOT big enough. Trying to get as far away from him as I could was telling him that I was damned pissed off. "Learn to accept the attention"? Really? Sure, it could develop into a "wonderfully intimate time"...me kicking him square in the nuts. Yeah...when he's being a tool...I'm not into physical contact. Fucking deal with it. In all seriousness, this shit pisses me off because there's an assumption that "intimate touch" cures all. Yeah, no, it doesn't. "*No is an important word in a D/s relationship, but one that shouldn’t be abused. Just like safewords, this word is only to be used in non-negotiated situations or when something needs to be cleared up first. Remember: use sparingly. " Yup, I will remember that, anonymous web person. Because you know far better than me how to be in my relationship.

Gauge -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 11:21:18 AM)
This is a fast reply. I love the topic. I've always got a kick out of the "topping from the bottom" folks because it is such an ambiguous phrase, a sort of catchall if you will. When anything perceived as a "threat" to the dominant and their dominance, it is kind of a go-to accusation, not to say that it does not actually happen, but it seems to be used more when the dominant is throwing a hissy fit. For my liking, I am just more calm than that. A relationship is going to have that give and take dynamic. A dominant who is worth his salt is not going to see that as a threat, he is simply going to see it as something he is allowing for the good of the relationship. The only example I can think of is when my slut and I decide to go out to eat. Sometimes I have a place in mind, but sometimes I do not. When I don't have something in mind, I allow my slut to choose a place, or at least a cuisine. It's not a big deal and my allowing her to choose a restaurant isn't a threat to me or my dominance. I never wanted a doormat, and for some that toss that phrase around without a good understanding of what it really means, it seems that a doormat is what they want.

JeffBC -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 11:33:06 AM)
Yeah, this goes in the bucket with pretty much all the other "bad sub" phrases. In this case my immediate question is always, "If you want to be the dominant how come you're submitting?"

Kaliko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 11:54:41 AM)
I take "topping from the bottom" to be manipulative behavior on the part of the submissive to provoke a certain reaction or response from the dominant. It is not disagreement, or voicing an opinion, or saying "I don't like ----." It's trying to change the dominant's behavior to suit the submissive. Key word: trying.

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 12:01:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge The only example I can think of is when my slut and I decide to go out to eat. Sometimes I have a place in mind, but sometimes I do not. When I don't have something in mind, I allow my slut to choose a place, or at least a cuisine. It's not a big deal and my allowing her to choose a restaurant isn't a threat to me or my dominance. Really?? LOL In reading some of the stuff on here, one would think something like that would be the first step in the breakdown of a D/s relationship. When we go out, I give him what I call "the right of first refusal". Unless it's something totally important to me (rarely), I just don't care. So, "do you want to go here?" works for us. (BTW...I like the bald head and facial hair look...)

CreativeDominant -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 12:02:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug CD...that is a fascinating article...really. I'd like to address a couple of the points.... "3. You ask “What is in it for me if I do x y z?” Submission isn’t about pleasing you directly. Being directed to do something from your Dominant is to please them, and as my Master always says, “Doing things for me should be your pleasure.” Conditional submission is topping from the bottom and should not exist, you either submit or you don’t. What you get in return is up to your Dominant. Negotiating this in the beginning of the relationship is critical. " I would EXTREMELY beg to differ with this. Submission IS about my pleasure. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be playing this game. Yes, I like to see him pleased, but yes, I often ask, "what's in it for me?". And, yes, I will often do what I did last week in order to get what I want. Because something like that is not viewed as "negative", it's just written off..which doesn't make sense to me. I know, if I do x, y will happen. That is always in my mind. "4. You pull away from physical contact. This is a tough one, but typically in a D/s relationship you have given over control of your body to your Dominant. This means that if they wish to touch you, that is their right. Telling them with physical withdrawal that you do not wish to be touched is trying to force their decision to touch you. Removing yourself from the situation is topping from the bottom. Learn to accept the attention, no matter what it is; it could develop into a wonderfully intimate time between the two of you." My prior Dom had a Cal King bed, and there were times when that crap was just NOT big enough. Trying to get as far away from him as I could was telling him that I was damned pissed off. "Learn to accept the attention"? Really? Sure, it could develop into a "wonderfully intimate time"...me kicking him square in the nuts. Yeah...when he's being a tool...I'm not into physical contact. Fucking deal with it. In all seriousness, this shit pisses me off because there's an assumption that "intimate touch" cures all. Yeah, no, it doesn't. "*No is an important word in a D/s relationship, but one that shouldn’t be abused. Just like safewords, this word is only to be used in non-negotiated situations or when something needs to be cleared up first. Remember: use sparingly. " Yup, I will remember that, anonymous web person. Because you know far better than me how to be in my relationship. Well...as I said, it is all just another person's opinions. I happen to agree with some of what is said in that article and disagree with other aspects. I'd write it a tad different because of that disagreement but then again, it would only be my opinion, based on what I know about myself. my perspective on other relationships I've observed and been in, and about the type of submissive I want at this point in my life. I'm of the same mind as Dark...my biggest thing is keeping my nose out of other people's relationships. I know how I want MINE to run and unless I specifically ask for advice, then I'll run it my way. I might not agree with your relationship...or E.T.s...or Kim and Kenye's...or whoever's ...but if they're not asking me, I'm not sayin' (to paraphrase E.Ť.). Again, it all comes down to what works for the two...or more...people that are involved.

Gauge -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 12:17:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug Really?? LOL In reading some of the stuff on here, one would think something like that would be the first step in the breakdown of a D/s relationship. When we go out, I give him what I call "the right of first refusal". Unless it's something totally important to me (rarely), I just don't care. So, "do you want to go here?" works for us. Well, some are more hardcore than others.... and still others need to prove their dominance by just being dicks. My dynamic works the way I want it to and it makes us both happy.[:)] quote: (BTW...I like the bald head and facial hair look...) Thanks. Been like that for years, just needed an updated picture.[;)]

NookieNotes -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 12:36:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I do think a term is needed to kind of replace this one in the event where a lady has claimed that she wishes to submit but getting even a modicum of actual submission out of her is like trying to get free barrels of crude from OPEC. I still feel "do me" works there. smiles quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug While, of course, he "agreed" with what I did last week...does that necessarily mean that he was "leading" at that point? Is "topping from the bottom" only used when there is a conflict? No, but when there is no conflict, there is no topping from the bottom, either. Do you consider it leading to suggest a restaurant, when your dear one just doesn't have an opinion? Or to do your own grocery shopping? I would consider it leading if there a conflict about the groceries, and you chose to overrule (and that is perfectly acceptable for a sub to lead in the kitchen, if that is the dynamic, FYI). So, you may have started the ball rolling, as my sub does, but since I choose what I want to do with him, according to my mood, I am still leading if I choose to do what he hoped for, as long as it is my free will, and I am in charge. You see? I don't feel that in order to lead I would have to deny him something I want, just because he started or suggested it. quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant From: http://www.submissiveguide.com/2009/01/5-ways-to-recognize-topping-from-the-bottom/ I read this. I thought about including it, but I would have made fun... smiles quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant If you try to change his or her mind about the decision they have made, without a valid reason,® you are topping from the bottom. Examples could range from trying to convince them to use a different toy because you don’t like the one they are using, to asking them if they are sure they want to eat at Joe’s Restaurant when you really want to eat at Donna’s Cafe. Who is to say those are not valid reasons? I mean, it depends on your dynamic, but I encourage my subs to say if they don't like a toy or a restaurant. I may still make my own choice, but they can certainly say it. Topping from the bottom is when the dominant agrees because the s-type is being a whiny little bitch about it. And that is on the dominant, not the sub. quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant This one goes without saying, but pretending you didn’t hear the request and just to carry on doing what you want to do is not appropriate. Acknowledge the request as soon as possible and follow out the command as best you can. You can always go back to what you were doing afterward. The dominant is expecting your service at all times, not just when you want to give it. Topping from the bottom can be non-verbal. Why are we calling this topping from the bottom? Why not passive-aggressive behavior? Why do we need a BDSM-specific term for it? And again, how is this LEADING from the bottom? I see no topping. quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant 3. You ask “What is in it for me if I do x y z?” Submission isn’t about pleasing you directly. Being directed to do something from your Dominant is to please them, and as my Master always says, “Doing things for me should be your pleasure.” Conditional submission is topping from the bottom and should not exist, you either submit or you don’t. What you get in return is up to your Dominant. Negotiating this in the beginning of the relationship is critical. And yet, a relationship evolves, and new things come up that may never have been thought or talked about before. And again, HOW is this leading the relationship to ask valid questions? quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant 4. You pull away from physical contact. Removing yourself from the situation is topping from the bottom. No. Removing yourself from the situation is a valid behavior. How your dominant/master responds/reacts is what determines leadership. quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant No is an important word in a D/s relationship, but one that shouldn’t be abused. In my opinion, "No" is a word that should never be overused. Period. But it's still not topping from the bottom, unless your Dominant/Master accedes to your manipulation. quote:* ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Me again. What do you think of the examples above? As is often stated on here, communication is very important but I think we'd all have to agree that we've all met people in vanilla as well as in D/s who negotiate and then, once they've agreed , sometimes attempt to go around what they've agreed to. That's true. My point is that if a submissive tries any of this behavior, that is poor communication skills. If the dominant ALLOWS it, accedes to it, then it is the dominant's responsibility. To suggest that the submissive is "topping from the bottom," in my opinion, is saying that I cannot handle my sub. It's like having a poorly behaved dog. Or child. YOU are the leader. YOU set the tone. If you cannot do that, then you have two options to explain it: 1. You are not a good leader. 2. You are not the right leader for that sub, and you chose poorly (Yes, I believe it is the dominant's responsibility). But that's just my opinion. smiles quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I like the logic, but it's inherently flawed. Why?? Because of your basic premise. Namely: "The person on the bottom (submissive/slave) is leading." You are assuming the bottom is the /s. That may not be true. Maybe the D is on the bottom getting their kink on by instructing the /s to go on top. I used that as examples, but I do not make that assumption. I did also mention that a scene can be acceptably called topping from the bottom when the bottom is actually leading and teaching. Which sounds like it applies in your example. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But... it may also be that the /s is out of control and trying to rule the roost. So, who is the wayward one of the two? The D or the /s?? Unless you're a fly on the wall to make that judgement, it could be either. I disagree. The leader is the leader. Or not. And being out of control does not mean the dominant is acceding, either. It is one-sided in my opinion. The dominant assumes responsibility for leadership. If the s is asshole-ing, then the left side fo the slash is responsible for figuring out why or doing something about it in that relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug I would EXTREMELY beg to differ with this. Submission IS about my pleasure. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be playing this game. Yes, I like to see him pleased, but yes, I often ask, "what's in it for me?". And, yes, I will often do what I did last week in order to get what I want. Because something like that is not viewed as "negative", it's just written off..which doesn't make sense to me. I know, if I do x, y will happen. That is always in my mind. Agreed. This is how is should be. If my submissive is not happy, I need to do something about that, even if that means ending the relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug Yeah...when he's being a tool...I'm not into physical contact. Fucking deal with it. Or, I don't know, be the responsible one and find out what's wrong, and how to fix it? Just saying... quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug Yup, I will remember that, anonymous web person. Because you know far better than me how to be in my relationship. Yes, exactly. LOL! quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge For my liking, I am just more calm than that. A relationship is going to have that give and take dynamic. A dominant who is worth his salt is not going to see that as a threat, he is simply going to see it as something he is allowing for the good of the relationship. The only example I can think of is when my slut and I decide to go out to eat. Sometimes I have a place in mind, but sometimes I do not. When I don't have something in mind, I allow my slut to choose a place, or at least a cuisine. It's not a big deal and my allowing her to choose a restaurant isn't a threat to me or my dominance. I agree. quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Yeah, this goes in the bucket with pretty much all the other "bad sub" phrases. In this case my immediate question is always, "If you want to be the dominant how come you're submitting?" Uh huh. quote: ORIGINAL: Kaliko It's trying to change the dominant's behavior to suit the submissive. Key word: trying. I think it's only when the sub has succeeded in however small a way that it's even recognized. I could be wrong. -- WHEW! Well, that kept me entertained while my business partners didn't show up/showed up late for a meeting... LOL!

littleladybug -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 12:48:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes No, but when there is no conflict, there is no topping from the bottom, either. Which goes to show...in my humble submissive opinion...(ha ha)...that the expression is a bunch of shit, and is something used by people who have no other way to express that they have no control...

RockaRolla -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 1:14:38 PM)
Great post. I do enjoy "topping from the bottom" at times, though for a different reason than you've brought up. I'm not a teacher. I'm not cheating, lying, or manipulating to get my needs met (sort of.) It's a result of the brat in me. When I'm on the right side of the slash, my playful side comes out and I try to get my D as worked up as I can. I like the power struggle, especially if I lose in the end.

Kaliko -> RE: Topping From The Bottom, Asshole-ing from the Sidelines and More (11/26/2014 1:23:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: Kaliko It's trying to change the dominant's behavior to suit the submissive. Key word: trying. I think it's only when the sub has succeeded in however small a way that it's even recognized. I could be wrong. Well, I think it's actually for the submissive to know, and not necessarily the dominant to know - unless he is an astute man and can point her efforts out. It's often about intent and I believe it's incumbent on an obedient submissive to keep her intent focused properly without having to constantly be called out for it. A simple example: When I cook a meal for him that I know he likes, my focus is on pleasing him. When I cook a meal for him that I know he likes with the hope of putting him in a good mood so he'll agree to watch a certain movie with me that night, that is manipulation. Only I really, truly know why I'm cooking a meal for him. So it's really up to me to be cognizant of why I'm doing anything I do for him, and to keep my priorities in order; to be sure that my end-goal serves him, not me.

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