quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

There be mad dogs, even among these Englishmen then.


Vortigen

quote:

Then why is cockroach trying to introduce new measures to stop such a drain if it's all bollocks. Huh??

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Are you serious in your definitions, FD? What comes between Million and Billion then? You're right that 1000 Million is 1 Billion. Also, 1000 Billion is 1 Trillion, so 1000000 Million (or 1 Million Million) is also 1 Trillion.
There has to be something between a Million and a Billion over there, is a Billion is 1000000 Million.

Apparently, the US and the UK have adopted the "short scale" numbers.
Other European countries have not (yet).
The old system used to use different scales of numbers for the same word.
It is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers
and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15478580

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Are you serious in your definitions, FD? What comes between Million and Billion then? You're right that 1000 Million is 1 Billion. Also, 1000 Billion is 1 Trillion, so 1000000 Million (or 1 Million Million) is also 1 Trillion.
There has to be something between a Million and a Billion over there, is a Billion is 1000000 Million.

I was right.. for the Long Scale.
But... Apparently, the US and the UK have adopted the "short scale" numbers.
Other European countries have not (yet).
The old system used to use different scales of numbers for the same word.
It is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers
and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15478580

Thanks for the links, FD! So, the "Milliard" was the transition from Million to Billion. Never even heard of that before now.

I also see that, in the long scale, everything goes up 6 powers of 10 (by 1 Million) while in the short scale, everything goes up by 1 thousand, or 3 powers of 10. I think the short scale makes more sense because of the use of a comma separator between each group of 3 digits. Now, with the metric system, the prefixes are based on that same 3 powers of 10 change, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

There be mad dogs, even among these Englishmen then.


Vortigen

Oh god yes. The country's full of stuffed up old farts, and stuffed up young farts.

There are no rich and powerful people here who are responsible for anything bad that's going on. It's only the unions, the Jews, the Muslims, the single parent families, the jobless, the gypsies, the people (pretending to be) disabled ... it's only *ever* this or that section of the people at the bottom. Most of us are very, very clear about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Then why is cockroach trying to introduce new measures to stop such a drain if it's all bollocks. Huh??

Jesus Christ, isn't it obvious? He wants to pander to the cretins who believe the BS, that's all. He wants to out UKIP UKIP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

What is this "trillions" do you know what a trillion is? [8|]

Of course we need to have stricter immigration policies. We need to curtail illegal immigration and I don't think anyone is going to argue with that. This isn't the immigrants fault. Immigrants aren't to blame for previous governments having open door policies. Have you walked in an immigrants shoes just for a day, a week or a month? Has the colour of your skin ever reflected on how or how not you are received in society?

As a black african american woman of color, I have no comment.
To respond further is beneath me.

I know what its like to fear the colour of my skin. I lived in the Middle East at the beginning and during the first part of an uprising. There wasn’t a single day when I suffered name calling or having a hateful finger pointed at me but I know what its like to be a foreigner living in a country where a large majority of its people want westerners out. I never had a taunt; I never saw a racist attack but I feared it every time I left my house and every time I had to speak to a stranger in a badly broken foreign accent. There is power in hatred and when you live amongst it, its a frightening place to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

No it isn't a myth, Peon.
I've personally been on the wrong end of that shitty stick. It happens.

And here's why they tell you that everyone is 'graded' and awarded points and treated "equally" according to need -
Just for being an immigrant, you are awarded more 'points' than most people, even in dire situations, could get.
So that in itself, pushes them higher up the 'award' ladder than most Brits.
Everything else (I think) is universally measured.

An example: Two guys, one a Brit, one an immigrant, both apply for housing.
The immigrant is more than likely to get housed within a few weeks or months.
The Brit is told he can sleep in a doorway and doesn't qualify to even get on the housing register.
UNBELIEVABLE yet I am not surprised.

I will c/p part of an email I sent to my local MP on 8th March 2011 -

quote:

ORIGINAL: email to MP. 08/03/2011
There are a number of discrepancies in the benefits system where housing is concerned and some people, myself included, are very peeved at how some people are able to jump the housing queues simply because of some idiotic rule or other that really needs to be sorted out. The example I am quoting here (and it’s quite a long one dealing with several issues) happened to me a while ago but is still very relevant today and all of this information wasn’t guesswork, it was what I gleaned from chatting to the people involved. Let’s take the situation of four groups of people, all trying to claim housing allocation and the various benefits that go with it….
1) The “average” couple with 2.4 kids (we’ll round it down to 2 for this example). Been waiting on the housing list for over 4 years and not been offered anywhere to date.
2) A young girl (under 20), visibly pregnant with 6 kids and a new boyfriend. Been waiting about 6 months for somewhere to live because her mum was fed up with all the kids living at home. She openly admitted that she wants as many kids as possible so the council will provide a decent home for her and her boyfriend and lots of money in benefits.
3) Myself with a nearly 7-month pregnant wife about to have a baby with a note from the doctor about a weak amniotic bag having already lost 1 child at 3 days old that was born at 27 weeks. We had been waiting for a couple of years but nothing was forthcoming as we didn’t have any living children to help boost our points allocation.
4) A Pakistani immigrant with 3 wives and 15 kids (or was it 16? I can’t remember) and only been in the country for one week and seeking asylum. He was living with his brother’s family but was ordered out by the local council for causing overcrowding. Not been on the housing list at all.

We were all waiting at our respective windows at the housing office (not Medway I might add) being attended to by our housing officers dealing with our housing claims.
The first couple, Mr & Mrs average with 2 youngish kids both going to school was told they didn’t have any suitable housing and they would have to continue waiting.
The young girl was told that her boyfriend didn’t count unless she could prove he was living with her permanently but there was a 3-bed unfurnished council house coming up in the next few weeks in a local village if she wanted it but she would have to wait until the family living there had moved out and the council had inspected it and done any fixing necessary. She was given a grant for almost £2,000 to buy furnishings for the house she had just been allocated.
I was very bluntly told there was a 7 year waiting list and the best they could do was a B&B 3 miles outside of town for up to 3 months on ‘emergency housing’ – take it or leave it. With my wife being 7 months pregnant and very likely to drop the baby any day soon, we took it.
The Pakistani immigrant was waiting for the housing officer to locate the keys for a fully-furnished 6-bedroomed house (two 3-bed houses knocked together into a single dwelling) that the council would pay for – rent and council tax. He was also given a giro for just over £1,000 for immediate expenses for his family.

It is obvious that the result from the four housing applications is very unfair and it’s no wonder that British people are unsympathetic towards immigrants and young girls who can’t keep their legs shut and refuse to go on the pill.
The average couple complained bitterly that the young girl was given a house before they were even though they had been waiting a long time. The housing officer just shut the window on them and they left the building very disgruntled.
The young girl was very happy and started filling in a form to accept the house that she had been offered.
The Pakistani man was absolutely beaming and rubbing his hands together.
I was so furious about the whole situation that I shouted at the housing officer and was bodily escorted from the building by security guards with the threat of being arrested for disorderly conduct.

True account that happened to me, not just some idle media story.
[Edit: November 2011, not March]

And something very recent....
My stepdaughter and her foreign friend that she regularly goes to bingo with, applied for social housing about 3 months ago.
Both are unemployed, my stepdaughter will be 24 next week, her friend is 22; no kids or bf's involved.
Her friend has been given a 2-bed flat, my stepdaughter has been offered a bed at a hostel for waifs, strays and drunks.
WTF?? Where is the justice in our system???

Pffffttttt!!! Don't tell me the system doesn't do this sort of shit because it does... regularly.

quote:

Too many non-political academic studies that appear to show there is some truth in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Then why is cockroach trying to introduce new measures to stop such a drain if it's all bollocks. Huh??

Jesus Christ, isn't it obvious? He wants to pander to the cretins who believe the BS, that's all. He wants to out UKIP UKIP.

For many, many decades the Tories have gently and carefully cultivated a soft sort of racism, knowing that they'd reap the benefit: because there was no viable and plausible right wing party. So it didn't matter how much they said the word 'immigrant' and spat immediately after - the effect could only be positive for them: the only truly anti immigrant party was the Tory party.

But now they've been royally hoist by their own petard. The Tories have managed to create so much anti-immigrant feeling amongst the stuffed up cretins that what they, the Tories, offer as the solution, has begun to look like a half measure. That's where Farage and his gang of fruitcakes and cuckoo clocks have come in, and have mopped up the votes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Too many non-political academic studies that appear to show there is some truth in it.

Which non-political academic studies, for instance, FD? I'd be very interested to look at them. Could you provide some examples?

quote:

And this group is the biggest - non-EEA immigrants make up two thirds of the UK immigrant population. So both groups of immigrants - EEA and non-EEA - considered together, take out around £14,000 more than they put in, amounting to a deficit of around £95bn for the public purse between 1995-2011
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Read what I wrote PS - the info came directly from talking with the other applicants. It's not bollocks.
I actually saw the Giros that were issued. I was there at this event.
This is a real life event. I went through it. So don't fucking tell me it's bollocks. It happened.
My stepdaughter and son are currently facing the same problems. It's not bullshit.
My original problem was at the Spalding housing office. These days I'm in Medway.
The point is... this is not an isolated case with one particularly awkward office.

Yes, the system uses a points allocation system - that's why they tell you everyone is treated equally and fairly.
Immigrants are given points just for being (legal) immigrants and you get more if you are (or have applied for) asylum status.
So everything else is awarded the same, ie, number of kids, if you are homeless, in a 'special' or 'vulnerable' group etc.

ETA: being an immigrant seeking asylum puts you into a 'special' group that most Brits can't get into - that's one of the reasons they get more points to start with.
And, FWIW, Cameron is attempting to change it so it is a fairer system and that immigrants don't receive all of the benefits for 4 years (when they have paid something into the pot).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
There are hundreds of stories like this one

quote:

Cameron has previously been advised by the former defence secretary Liam Fox and other senior colleagues to commit to removing the ringfencing of the NHS budget after 2015, leaving it open to cuts in the next parliament. Many Tory MPs believe that, at 10% of GDP, spending on the NHS has reached its limit.

If it's really 10% GDP, doesn't this mean that an 8.2% tax means that the NHS is operating in a deficit? How could that be?

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
There are hundreds of stories like this one

quote:

Cameron has previously been advised by the former defence secretary Liam Fox and other senior colleagues to commit to removing the ringfencing of the NHS budget after 2015, leaving it open to cuts in the next parliament. Many Tory MPs believe that, at 10% of GDP, spending on the NHS has reached its limit.

If it's really 10% GDP, doesn't this mean that an 8.2% tax means that the NHS is operating in a deficit? How could that be?

I have no idea where you get the rate of 8.2% from. National Insurance payments are paid by both employee and employer. The employer rate is 13.8% and the employee rate is 12% once qualifying salary level is reached.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
There are hundreds of stories like this one

quote:

Cameron has previously been advised by the former defence secretary Liam Fox and other senior colleagues to commit to removing the ringfencing of the NHS budget after 2015, leaving it open to cuts in the next parliament. Many Tory MPs believe that, at 10% of GDP, spending on the NHS has reached its limit.

If it's really 10% GDP, doesn't this mean that an 8.2% tax means that the NHS is operating in a deficit? How could that be?

I have no idea where you get the rate of 8.2% from. National Insurance payments are paid by both employee and employer. The employer rate is 13.8% and the employee rate is 12% once qualifying salary level is reached.

I'm, apparently, not keeping my numbers connected. My bad.

FD's post here, though was where I got the 8.-something% number. [:D]

Granted, it was claimed as 8.6%, so I was still not correct with 8.2%...

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
There are hundreds of stories like this one

quote:

Cameron has previously been advised by the former defence secretary Liam Fox and other senior colleagues to commit to removing the ringfencing of the NHS budget after 2015, leaving it open to cuts in the next parliament. Many Tory MPs believe that, at 10% of GDP, spending on the NHS has reached its limit.

If it's really 10% GDP, doesn't this mean that an 8.2% tax means that the NHS is operating in a deficit? How could that be?

I have no idea where you get the rate of 8.2% from. National Insurance payments are paid by both employee and employer. The employer rate is 13.8% and the employee rate is 12% once qualifying salary level is reached.

I'm, apparently, not keeping my numbers connected. My bad.
FD's post here, though was where I got the 8.-something% number. [:D]
Granted, it was claimed as 8.6%, so I was still not correct with 8.2%...

Soz Desi, that calculation was done by simple division of one of my payslips I had to hand.
But you have to remember, anything below £10k you don't pay tax on, so that 12% on the average £10k or less wages (after £10k tax allowances), as an overall amount, looks a lot less than 12%.
You also have to factor in that the NHS budget doesn't solely come from N.I contributions, it comes from the general tax pot.
So it doesn't matter if N.I is 8.~something% income and it spends 10+% on expenditure, the shortfall comes from the general pot to make it up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
There are hundreds of stories like this one

quote:

Cameron has previously been advised by the former defence secretary Liam Fox and other senior colleagues to commit to removing the ringfencing of the NHS budget after 2015, leaving it open to cuts in the next parliament. Many Tory MPs believe that, at 10% of GDP, spending on the NHS has reached its limit.

If it's really 10% GDP, doesn't this mean that an 8.2% tax means that the NHS is operating in a deficit? How could that be?

I have no idea where you get the rate of 8.2% from. National Insurance payments are paid by both employee and employer. The employer rate is 13.8% and the employee rate is 12% once qualifying salary level is reached.

I'm, apparently, not keeping my numbers connected. My bad.
FD's post here, though was where I got the 8.-something% number. [:D]
Granted, it was claimed as 8.6%, so I was still not correct with 8.2%...

Soz Desi, that calculation was done by simple division of one of my payslips I had to hand.
But you have to remember, anything below £10k you don't pay tax on, so that 12% on the average £10k or less wages (after £10k tax allowances), as an overall amount, looks a lot less than 12%.
You also have to factor in that the NHS budget doesn't solely come from N.I contributions, it comes from the general tax pot.
So it doesn't matter if N.I is 8.~something% income and it spends 10+% on expenditure, the shortfall comes from the general pot to make it up.

The point, though, is that it's not 8.1%, if it's 10% expenditures. It's 10%. That you only get taxed 8% directly for it, means you're still getting taxed that extra 2% for it, but it's not being called NI. Then, you have to wonder where that 2% came from. What's losing out on more funding?

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The point, though, is that it's not 8.1%, if it's 10% expenditures. It's 10%. That you only get taxed 8% directly for it, means you're still getting taxed that extra 2% for it, but it's not being called NI. Then, you have to wonder where that 2% came from. What's losing out on more funding?

What FD has failed to mention in all his calculations is that the Employer also pays into the National Insurance "pot"