RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen

RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 11:33:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for universal access... There is universal access, which sometimes leads to pressure on the system....... If it wasnt open to all it wouldnt be so fucking busy. Why the fuck is this so hard for some of you to understand ? Apparently, not. If there is no bed for this patient, there is no access for that patient. Why the fuck is it so hard for you to understand that?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 11:35:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for universal access... There is universal access, which sometimes leads to pressure on the system....... If it wasnt open to all it wouldnt be so fucking busy. Why the fuck is this so hard for some of you to understand ? Because they can't see beyond private companies and profits and extreme individualism. With all the explanations I've given to Desi, all he sees is companies losing out and it'll be a meltdown. Well.... that's what single-payer systems are all about. There is very little in the way of private insurance companies and they don't figure in it at all. And that profit doesn't matter either; there is virtually no profit to be made or had. That's what they can't comprehend. You continue to show how little you know about what I comprehend, or what I see.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 11:35:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for universal access... There is universal access, which sometimes leads to pressure on the system....... If it wasnt open to all it wouldnt be so fucking busy. Why the fuck is this so hard for some of you to understand ? Apparently, not. If there is no bed for this patient, there is no access for that patient. Why the fuck is it so hard for you to understand that? I have already explained that Desi. This was no 'ordinary' patient.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 11:37:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for universal access... There is universal access, which sometimes leads to pressure on the system....... If it wasnt open to all it wouldnt be so fucking busy. Why the fuck is this so hard for some of you to understand ? Apparently, not. If there is no bed for this patient, there is no access for that patient. Why the fuck is it so hard for you to understand that? I have already explained that Desi. This was no 'ordinary' patient. Oh, I see. I apologize. I guess being "special" ain't so special, now is it? If you don't have beds for all patients (special or not), you don't have "universal" access. So, by your own words, you state that you have universal access, so long as you're not a special case.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 11:41:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for universal access... There is universal access, which sometimes leads to pressure on the system....... If it wasnt open to all it wouldnt be so fucking busy. Why the fuck is this so hard for some of you to understand ? Apparently, not. If there is no bed for this patient, there is no access for that patient. Why the fuck is it so hard for you to understand that? I have already explained that Desi. This was no 'ordinary' patient. Oh, I see. I apologize. I guess being "special" ain't so special, now is it? If you don't have beds for all patients (special or not), you don't have "universal" access. So, by your own words, you state that you have universal access, so long as you're not a special case. We have universal access, yes. But like many (maybe even most) of your hospitals, even the private ones, are not equipped to deal with special mental health patients. This was one such case and why there were no beds available because it wasn't a normal everyday hospital bed that was being asked for. Can you not comprehend the difference? Or are you being deliberately obtuse??

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 11:43:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 We have universal access, yes. But like many (maybe even most) of your hospitals, even the private ones, are not equipped to deal with special mental health patients. This was one such case and why there were no beds available because it wasn't a normal everyday hospital bed that was being asked for. Can you not comprehend the difference? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?? We agree. You only have universal access as long as you're not a "special case."

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 12:16:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 We have universal access, yes. But like many (maybe even most) of your hospitals, even the private ones, are not equipped to deal with special mental health patients. This was one such case and why there were no beds available because it wasn't a normal everyday hospital bed that was being asked for. Can you not comprehend the difference? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?? We agree. You only have universal access as long as you're not a "special case." And how many "special cases" of the mental health variety do US hospital cases take?? I'm betting very few (if any) without going to a specialist unit. And even then, only of your insurance policy covers it. We are talking one very specific case here and there were no spaces left in the few specialist facilities that we have. And yet, you are nit-picking over ONE special case when the US has literally thousands that have died or are dying because of crippling healthcare costs.

Sanity -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 12:32:50 PM)
The best system in the world had ought to have a bed for a troubled young woman In the USA there are not only beds but there are programs for the uninsured, have been for a long time Handouts for the truly needy rather than for everyone is an approach that works far better than "free free free" government everything (which is just a vote buying program really) Our system needs some tweaking but it can be made to work rather well, while according to certain reports your NHS may well be doomed to catastrophic failure

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 12:45:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The best system in the world had ought to have a bed for a troubled young woman Not just 'a troubled young woman'. Oh I forgot, you don't bother to read the links you post so you wouldn't know. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity In the USA there are not only beds but there are programs for the uninsured, have been for a long time So why are sooo many Americans not able to afford any sort of healthcare?? Your free ones obviously can't cope at all or it only caters for very very few people. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Handouts for the truly needy rather than for everyone is an approach that works far better than "free free free" government everything (which is just a vote buying program really) So why don't all the 'truly needy' people use the handouts?? Because most don't qualify for them. No, it's not vote buying. We've had social healthcare since 1948. That don't buy votes in the 21st century. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Our system needs some tweaking but it can be made to work rather well, while according to certain reports your NHS may well be doomed to catastrophic failure Your system needs obliterating and starting again. It can only work well IF you have the money to pay for it. Those that can't afford it don't do so well. And those reports you are so fond of linking to, have you actually read them? Most are scaremongers because they want it to fail because they want profiteering instead.

PeonForHer -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 1:35:24 PM)
quote: It is a folly to think that UKIP only attracts racist votes, the elderly often vote in the biggest numbers and they are not happy with the unbridled immigration and diktats from the EU which affect UK policy. UKIP appeals to them now but needs clear workable policies in its Election Manifesto. Indeedy. At present it's basically just a dual policy party: anti Europe and anti EU. The rest of the policies that are bandied around are a hotchpotch of populist stuff and fruitcakeism (climate change denial, for instance). Even Nigel Farage, their leader, thought that their 2010 manifesto was garbage. However, the rest of their policies don't matter because their supporters tend to think the immigration and EU issues are the only crucial things to be concerned about. This is not because they're nutty and/or racist, though. Or so I'm told by UKIP members - except of course the many UKIP members who've shown their nuttiness and/or racism too publicly and got gagged or even slung out of the party as a result. I think possibly the biggest and most fundamental thing about this election is that the political class - the leading members of the Liberal, Labour and Tory parties - will get a kick in the arse. The question is just how much of a kick in the arse. Maybe that will help with the constipation in the political system. I hope so.

NorthernGent -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 1:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail 2015 is going to be quite a year for you blokes. I've been sort of watching out of the corner of my eye, although here it is hard to get much news and insight. Doesn't appear that it will be business as usual, Tories v Labour v Liberals (yes, I see a separation there), you have your own brand of nutsuckers there now, amongst them UKIP, and some other rather extremist groups making moves. Give us the views there, how much traction are these groups going to get, and will it be enough some cobbled up government combination must be formed? And so on and so forth. (Not that Americans are interested in your socialism chaps, but I guess I am) And since you are our biggest ally what you do is of some interest to thinking Americans. 'Fraid not, Ron, it's a case of more of the same with no real prospect of any significant change. It's still Tories versus Labour, both of which are liberal parties, with perhaps the Conservative Party retaining some socially conservative principles. The Liberal Party died about 100 years ago. UKIP are to all intents and purposes a branch of the Conservative Party, they've simply made withdrawal from the EU their reason for being. No one knows what the fuck is happening with these people. UKIP could make some serious inroads because there are a lot of people in this country who want out of the European Union, and they're the only party firmly offering it. Prediction for the next election: more people will watch the final of Britain's Got Talent than take the time to vote.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 1:50:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 We have universal access, yes. But like many (maybe even most) of your hospitals, even the private ones, are not equipped to deal with special mental health patients. This was one such case and why there were no beds available because it wasn't a normal everyday hospital bed that was being asked for. Can you not comprehend the difference? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?? We agree. You only have universal access as long as you're not a "special case." And how many "special cases" of the mental health variety do US hospital cases take?? I'm betting very few (if any) without going to a specialist unit. And even then, only of your insurance policy covers it. We are talking one very specific case here and there were no spaces left in the few specialist facilities that we have. And yet, you are nit-picking over ONE special case when the US has literally thousands that have died or are dying because of crippling healthcare costs. Anyone can walk into a hospital ER and will be taken care of to the best of the hospital's ability (which, btw, is better care than that received in a jail). EMTALA means they can't turn anyone away for lack of ability to pay. Any patient that comes in has to, at the very least, be stabilized, if the hospital can do so. If the hospital can't stabilize the patient because of lack of ability, that patient gets transferred to a hospital that has that ability. It's a pretty fucked up system, innit? So, for now on, I do expect you to put an asterisk next to "universal" to identify that it's not universal. So, yeah, you have Universal* Health care.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 1:59:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: It is a folly to think that UKIP only attracts racist votes, the elderly often vote in the biggest numbers and they are not happy with the unbridled immigration and diktats from the EU which affect UK policy. UKIP appeals to them now but needs clear workable policies in its Election Manifesto. Indeedy. At present it's basically just a dual policy party: anti Europe and anti EU. The rest of the policies that are bandied around are a hotchpotch of populist stuff and fruitcakeism (climate change denial, for instance). Even Nigel Farage, their leader, thought that their 2010 manifesto was garbage. However, the rest of their policies don't matter because their supporters tend to think the immigration and EU issues are the only crucial things to be concerned about. This is not because they're nutty and/or racist, though. Or so I'm told by UKIP members - except of course the many UKIP members who've shown their nuttiness and/or racism too publicly and got gagged or even slung out of the party as a result. I think possibly the biggest and most fundamental thing about this election is that the political class - the leading members of the Liberal, Labour and Tory parties - will get a kick in the arse. The question is just how much of a kick in the arse. Maybe that will help with the constipation in the political system. I hope so. Well said Peon. But have you seen what cockroach (ummm... Cameron) has done or attempted to do because of what UKIP have put forward since winning the Euro elections? The same can be said for millipede (Milliband) as well. It seems to be a battle of who can assimilate a lot of what UKIP spouted to swing the voters. [:D] And that didn't work in our local by-election (Rochester). What should have been a very safe Conservative seat, UKIP took with a handsome majority. What next I wonder?? And mega-clump (Clegg) seems to be the overall loser in all of this. Their popularity has plummeted to below the Greens and other minority parties as a result, all across the UK. Should they really be considered as the 'third party' in mainstream politics any more? It would appear that having lost votes all over the country they should be relegated to 'Others' these days. They currently only hold 56 seats and it appears that they will hold significantly less at the next election. Our political system certainly needs a good kick in the bum and maybe the upsurge in UKIP is enough to get the others into a higher gear. Who knows.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 2:10:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Any patient that comes in has to, at the very least, be stabilized, if the hospital can do so. If the hospital can't stabilize the patient because of lack of ability, that patient gets transferred to a hospital that has that ability. It's a pretty fucked up system, innit? And if there are NO hospitals available that has the ability or staff/equipment/facilities to deal with said patient?? Yeah, it's all fucked up. And this is one example of where the patient needed very specialist mental health care that most hospitals are not equipped to deal with. Those few that had the facilities to cope with that type of patient didn't have a spare bed - or so the officer reported. But notice that it only took less than 48 hours to find one!! Personally, I don't think they tried very hard over the weekend. After all, it was a mental patient that was safely locked up in a cell; so they couldn't harm anyone. I think they got a tad lazy and the media exploded it out of proportion for sensationalistic headlines.

PeonForHer -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 2:57:05 PM)
quote: And mega-clump (Clegg) seems to be the overall loser in all of this. Their popularity has plummeted to below the Greens and other minority parties as a result, all across the UK. Should they really be considered as the 'third party' in mainstream politics any more? In May there's little doubt in my mind that their fortunes will go down the toilet. Yet I think they'll recover. The ideology behind the LibDems' policies is very old and well-established and people's memories re political events are short. But the old cosiness: of Labour and the Tories taking it in turns and the LibDems mopping up the 'alternative vote' - I think that's on its way out. As for the main parties and how they deal with the UKIP threat: yes, I think they're at sea and don't really know what to do for the best. Labour and the Tories have always been able to 'assimilate' the ideologies of third or new parties well enough. But UKIP is too clearly and stridently right wing. Labour and the Tories like to present themselves as 'balanced and sort of centrist'. That's looking a lot less of a comfortable option for them both, now - partly because of UKIP, but partly also because people seem to want more bollocks from their parties of government now.

PeonForHer -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 3:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The best system in the world had ought to have a bed for a troubled young woman In the USA there are not only beds but there are programs for the uninsured, have been for a long time Handouts for the truly needy rather than for everyone is an approach that works far better than "free free free" government everything (which is just a vote buying program really) Our system needs some tweaking but it can be made to work rather well, while according to certain reports your NHS may well be doomed to catastrophic failure Sanity, why are you and others arguing about the American health system? I think we can all agree that it's a) fucked up and b) only of real concern to Americans, so it doesn't really matter. Let's move on to talk about things that are happening in more important places in the world, such as the UK.

Lucylastic -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 3:29:08 PM)
Of course over this side of the pond the homelss/mentally ill are shot and killed by cops, and/or put in jail due to the lack of space, facilities and shortage. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/5-key-cases-of-police-shooting-deaths-involving-mentally-ill-individuals-1.2748257 http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/1/104.full http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/8/mental-illness-prison.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/14/nyregion/rikers-study-finds-prisoners-injured-by-employees.html?_r=0 http://nicic.gov/mentalillness The ACLU released dashboard camera footage showing eight cops firing 46 shots at Milton Hall. The mentally ill man was holding a pen knife. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/graphic-new-video-released-mich-cops-killing-homeless-man-article-1.1990595 With just 50,000 inpatient psychiatric beds for tens of millions of people across the country, the mentally ill typically wait twice as long for treatment as other patient populations do. "It's like landing airplanes at O'Hare airport," says Ken Duckworth, medical director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness. "For psychiatric patients in particular, every day is the Wednesday before Thanksgiving at O'Hare. There is just no place for them to go." http://www.newsweek.com/woman-who-died-hospital-waiting-room-92661 If you have ever worked with mentally ill patients, the system has been broken since the 90s....in the US, Canada, ANd the UK and to say that universal access means instant access is fucking bullshit.

Politesub53 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 4:03:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Apparently, not. If there is no bed for this patient, there is no access for that patient. Why the fuck is it so hard for you to understand that? Try and be a bit more dense and I can then call you Sanity. The woman concerned was never refused help. it just took time to get her a bed in a specialist unit. Knowing my debates on health with you in the past, you will just post more bullshit about insurance being better. The facts, not that you are interested in them, are out there.

Politesub53 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 4:05:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Sanity, why are you and others arguing about the American health system? I think we can all agree that it's a) fucked up and b) only of real concern to Americans, so it doesn't really matter. Let's move on to talk about things that are happening in more important places in the world, such as the UK. They are arguing is arguing because they cant handle the truth.

Politesub53 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 4:15:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Anyone can walk into a hospital ER and will be taken care of to the best of the hospital's ability (which, btw, is better care than that received in a jail). EMTALA means they can't turn anyone away for lack of ability to pay. Any patient that comes in has to, at the very least, be stabilized, if the hospital can do so. If the hospital can't stabilize the patient because of lack of ability, that patient gets transferred to a hospital that has that ability. It's a pretty fucked up system, innit? So, for now on, I do expect you to put an asterisk next to "universal" to identify that it's not universal. So, yeah, you have Universal* Health care. Bollocks...... EMTALA isnt anywhere near an equivalent to the NHS service. It is only equal to our A & E.....How the fuck you decided to bring jails into the debate is beyond me, but then again much of your bullshit is beyond me.

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