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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 4:35:30 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I wouldn't want him to be taken as representative of all of Christianity:





Get back to me when he takes down the Dubai tower, nears completion of his plans for a nuclear holocaust of an entire nation, takes over as much territory as Islamists have and his law controls a large portion of the planet


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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 4:52:31 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's worth remembering that this kind of mindless pathological reaction is precisely the same reaction that motivated the butchers of 9/11.


No, exactly the opposite. They methodically planned out their mass murder over many years' time, and then killed in cold blood. They also expected to be heroes and to be handsomely rewarded by Allah as martyrs


quote:


This stupid knee jerk reaction insists on the simplest possible explanation - "all Muslim/Christians/Westerners/{hate group of your choice} are responsible and therefore deserve to be killed


Westerners as a whole are very tolerant of Muslims, but non-Muslims (Christians and Jews etc) have to take extreme care in many Islamic lands

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 4:55:54 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Westerners as a whole are very tolerant of Muslims, but non-Muslims (Christians and Jews etc) have to take extreme care in many Islamic lands


... especially if there are drones above their heads.

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 4:59:40 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Westerners as a whole are very tolerant of Muslims, but non-Muslims (Christians and Jews etc) have to take extreme care in many Islamic lands


... especially if there are drones above their heads.


Is that kind of like, "Who left that backpack in the lobby. Anyone know?"







< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/22/2014 5:09:59 AM >

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 5:24:25 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's worth remembering that this kind of mindless pathological reaction is precisely the same reaction that motivated the butchers of 9/11.


No, exactly the opposite. They methodically planned out their mass murder over many years' time, and then killed in cold blood. They also expected to be heroes and to be handsomely rewarded by Allah as martyrs

You've managed, by design or accident, to completely miss the point I was making. I was referring to those Muslims who believed that Westerners/Christians were responsible for the Muslim worlds ills, that all Christians/Westerners were equally responsible so killing them was completely justified, as motives for the butchers of the 9/11 attacks.

But why am I detailing this perspective to you? The perspective of the 9/11 butchers is almost exactly the same as yours. The only changes needed are to simply replace 'Muslims' in your worldview with 'Christians/Westerners', change the odd location here and there, and the rest of it is exactly the same as any one of your's or kdsub's Islamophobic rants.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/22/2014 5:31:05 AM >

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 5:47:14 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's worth remembering that this kind of mindless pathological reaction is precisely the same reaction that motivated the butchers of 9/11.


No, exactly the opposite. They methodically planned out their mass murder over many years' time, and then killed in cold blood. They also expected to be heroes and to be handsomely rewarded by Allah as martyrs

You've managed, by design or accident, to completely miss the point I was making. I was referring to those Muslims who believed that Westerners/Christians were responsible for the Muslim worlds ills, that all Christians/Westerners were equally responsible so killing them was completely justified, as motives for the butchers of the 9/11 attacks.

But why am I detailing this perspective to you? The perspective of the 9/11 butchers is almost exactly the same as yours. The only changes needed are to simply replace 'Muslims' in your worldview with 'Christians/Westerners', change the odd location here and there, and the rest of it is exactly the same as any one of your's or kdsub's Islamophobic rants.


So... Because I correct your propaganda regarding the 9/11 hijackers, I am the same as them now

You are a real piece of work



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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 8:33:41 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

It's worth remembering that this kind of mindless pathological reaction is precisely the same reaction that motivated the butchers of 9/11.


No... this is what motivated them:

U.S. support of Israel[42][43]
Support for the "attacks against Muslims" in Somalia
Support of Russian "atrocities against Muslims" in Chechnya
Support of authoritarian regimes in the Middle East such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan
Support of Indian "oppression against Muslims" in Kashmir
The presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia[44][45]
The sanctions against Iraq[46]

In Somalia we tried to help starving people... yep Yankee devils
We had no say or control of Russia in Chechnya... in fact we criticized Russia
We have no say or control over the leaders of any Arab country... as history past and present has shown.
We have no say or control over India's fight against Muslims in Kashmir
We were invited into Saudi Arabia to put American lives on the line to help fight an Arab regime that invaded another.
So sanctions at the time against Iraq was reason to kill 3,000 people you say

That leaves support of Israel ... there is that... but also at that time the US was supporting Palestine and trying its best to broker an agreement to solve the conflict.

Hardly the same motivations tweak.

If you had tried to understand my post tweak you could see where I was comparing my ability to control my anger to those that can't... And I was using satire to do it.

If you direct a response to me then it would behoove you to address my positions on the Middle East and not lump me in with your rants against Zionist loving Arab haters. You rant against those that blame the majority of Muslims for the tiny minority of terrorists... then turn around and do exactly the same thing lumping all that do not agree with you as Arab hating killers.

Butch

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 8:37:33 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

But I was and am angry at the right entity AND their apologists. What makes you think otherwise? As for the right way as far as I know you have never said what the right way is or asked what I think the right way is. So how can you judge who is right or who is not?


Well, one way to judge is look at whether or not things have got better. In 2001 the bad guys hijacked some planes. Now, they have hijacked a sizeable mass of land and begun to build their own country.


It may very well be a way to judge the result... but not me Peon... and you were addressing me... Do you know my position on the Iraq war for instance? Do you know my thoughts on Afghanistan? If you don't then how could you judge ME on the result?

Butch

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 4:40:10 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm sorry dc....you will have to search for your self...it enrages me even to this day to watch those videos. A simple search will suffice.

Butch


From memory the majority of Muslims dancing in the streets were limited to Palestinians. Most Muslim nations condemned the attack.

Although one or two Americans claimed it was an act punishment from God, due to feminists, gays and abortions etc.

Pat Robertson springs to mind.

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 5:22:26 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		You mean just the same 20 or so dc says?

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 6:59:30 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

From memory the majority of Muslims dancing in the streets were limited to Palestinians.

It sounds like PS's memory is similar to mine.

That said, memory is fallible, especially after all these years, so I'm open to evidence that things were different.

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 7:21:02 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Are you sure it was just 20...and not a few thousand? Oh will I believe anything you guys say... I know you would never exaggerate so I guess I'll just have to agree.

Butch

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/22/2014 7:45:29 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Are you sure it was just 20...and not a few thousand?

This is the footage I recall seeing over and over and over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Get5aG1sM

The guys in the white van appear at least twice, as the does the zaftig woman with the black head scarf and thick glasses.

Looking at this afresh, I realize 20 is an undercount. It might be closer to dozens or a hundred. But nowhere near a few thousand.


quote:

Oh will I believe anything you guys say... I know you would never exaggerate so I guess I'll just have to agree.

I've said twice now that evidence and information can spur me to correct my memory. I just did so above.

Self-victimizing sarcasm when someone challenges your statements, not so much.

If you know of posts in which I exaggerated, feel free to bring them to my attention.

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 12:11:41 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Are you sure it was just 20...and not a few thousand?

This is the footage I recall seeing over and over and over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Get5aG1sM

The guys in the white van appear at least twice, as the does the zaftig woman with the black head scarf and thick glasses.

Looking at this afresh, I realize 20 is an undercount. It might be closer to dozens or a hundred. But nowhere near a few thousand.


Yes... I remember this footage too, and have always regarded it with suspicion.

As you note, the same tiny group of individuals, at most a few dozen, many of them children, appear again and again. The individuals appearing are not allowed to speak for themselves or explain their point of view (if they have one and are not just random passers-by put up or bribed by someone for rank propaganda purposes). There are no credits identifying the media people responsible for the footage. We have to take their word for it that the sentiments they attribute to the Palestinians appearing are their sentiments and not some fiction dreamt up by the reporter. I was unable to discover the original source for the footage though possibly someone with better forensic computer skills than mine might succeed in doing so. If any one does, I would love to see the results.

It's sad, but probably no accident given the bias of the US media, that this dubious image has lasted in the public imagination and not, for example, the image of Yassir Arafat and thousands of other Palestinians queueing up to donate blood for the survivors of the 9/11 attacks. The latter image is far more representative of the reaction of Palestinians and the Arab world generally to 9/11.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/23/2014 12:23:51 AM >

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 5:01:40 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You mean just the same 20 or so dc says?


I didnt say that, but it was the same group shown over and over on the news, and there was indeed condemnation from almost all Muslim States.

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 10:28:31 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Self-victimizing sarcasm when someone challenges your statements, not so much.


Dc I do not mind at all someone challenging my statements but when the challenger is wrong and refuses to admit it they deserve sarcasm. There were not 20... there were not a few hundred... there were thousands. This was well documented over the ensuing weeks ... even Arafat had to speak out.

This was not the only celebration of the fall of the towers either. There were celebrations in Germany... Afghanistan...Indonesia...Egypt... Egyptian news papers had headlines celebrating the murderers. These stories were also well documented and came out in the weeks following 9/11.

You complain about my sarcasm... what do you call your post... "I also remember looking more closely and realizing it was the same clip, of maybe 20 people, being aired endlessly." ...how about a little introspection before you call it on me.

Yes there was an outpouring of support and Americans on the whole responded to our Muslim population as Australia did... We have a significant Muslim population in St. Louis... perhaps higher than any other part of the country outside of Detroit. We joined hand and hand and marched to support our fellow Americans... But this did not lessen the impact of that video and the stories to follow.

I believe the reaction of some in the Arab world especially the video hardened the hearts of most Americans just as much as 9/11. At first Americans just wanted those guilty to come to justice in America. When Afghanistan refused to give up Osama bin Laden the invasion was an appropriate response. BUT...after seeing Muslims celebrating the death of Americans the blood lust of America was high. This enabled the lying bastards Bush and Cheney to fool the American people into invading Iraq. What you were so cavalier in describing, in my opinion, did more to cause the loss of 4,000 Americans lives as well as hundreds of thousands of lives in the middle east than 9/11 itself.

So I hope you can understand why I reacted the way I did....right or wrong.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/23/2014 10:48:54 AM >

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 3:49:07 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

This was not the only celebration of the fall of the towers either. There were celebrations in Germany... Afghanistan...Indonesia...Egypt... Egyptian news papers had headlines celebrating the murderers. These stories were also well documented and came out in the weeks following 9/11.


Yet despite being repeatedly asked for links, you fail to post them.

I am also unsure how you think anyone other than Bush, Cheney and Blair were responsible for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They had the full intel about Iraq which showed saddam hadnt been involved. The fact sentiments in many western countries were high, doesnt give the leaders of the free world the right to lie about reasons for war.

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 4:00:37 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

... the image of Yassir Arafat and thousands of other Palestinians queueing up to donate blood for the survivors of the 9/11 attacks ...


Actually, I never heard a thing about that. Why not? Perhaps, because it didn't go with the gung-ho political incorrectness and blackwashing campaign of the time?

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 4:40:15 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

PeonForHer
Actually, I never heard a thing about that. Why not? Perhaps, because it didn't go with the gung-ho political incorrectness and blackwashing campaign of the time?







http://www.theguardian.com/pictures/image/0,8543,-11204255336,00.html

This image certainly didn't resonate with post-9/11 Israeli attempts to portray itself as on the frontline against Islamist terrorism, when as we all know, it was (and still is) actually engaged in a sordid attempt to colonise and grab the West Bank for itself

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/23/2014 4:47:27 PM >

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RE: What is happening in Sydney? - 12/23/2014 6:10:33 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Bull... the link is there ...if you want it look... it is the same link you have been talking about... for the news stories do the same they are there... if you give a crap about knowing look.. if not I am not doing the work for you... the truth is there I don't give a crap whether you look for it or not.

If the information was hard to find I would do it... but its not.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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