RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student

RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (Full Version)

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Aylee -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 3:27:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph getting a sixpack of beers picked from your open garage NEVER can give anyone a legitimate right to take a human life are you completely mad over there??? is there no difference between juvenile foolishness and a capital crime in your minds and law system? How do you know that stealing a 6-pack is all that someone has in mind? As a widow, how am I supposed to tell the difference between a punk kid out to steal some alcohol versus someone out to hurt myself and my children?

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 4:12:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Way to say things I didn't say, let alone someone to whom I didn't say them. Difference being -- you're not always whining about it. That's not "blaming the victim," but rather, stop playing the victim. And...90% of what Bama says is bullshit. When called on it, he goes off on tangents. Apparently, that's a strategy you're contemplating as well. I love my home. That wasn't always the case. And I simply wouldn't live long-term somewhere I didn't love. If you would, I can only say we disagree. Extremely. Let's be clear here, in a thread about a Montana home-owner killing an exchange student and going to prison because of it, you directed a post to Bama suggesting that if his neighborhood made him feel so unsafe he should move. And you're complaining about other people going off on a tangent? As has been mentioned to others from time to time, once you make a thread or a post, anyone is free to respond. I'm in a similar situation to Bama, so I thought I'd weigh in. As to "saying things you didn't say", I'd have to disagree. You asked a question. I asked a question to clarify yours, and further stated that it sounded like victim-blaming to me. You may not like the implication I drew from your question, but that's not the same as "saying things you didn't say" or putting words in your mouth. I'm glad that you have the option to be able to say that you wouldn't live somewhere you didn't love. For some strange reason, not everyone has that option. Just maybe, my home is worth considerably less then I paid for it, due to the economy and the burst housing bubble. Maybe, I had to take medical assistance for my wife, when she spent years dying of cancer, and her medical bills were hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Maybe, they can't touch my house as long as I live here, but they can come after any proceeds if I sell. But feel free to disagree (extremely or otherwise) with my "decision" to stay in an area I don't absolutely love.

blnymph -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 4:17:36 AM)
do you expect me to teach you to talk to someone and ask? (that is if someone approaches you when you are not displaying a sixpack for picking like it was apparently done here ...) some advices: use your brains talk - get loud - deescalate - at night take a torch light with you teach your males basic rules of civilisation teach your females self defense (without weapons) - a good kick or an elbow into you know where does wonders

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 4:55:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph do you expect me to teach you to talk to someone and ask? (that is if someone approaches you when you are not displaying a sixpack for picking like it was apparently done here ...) some advices: use your brains talk - get loud - deescalate - at night take a torch light with you teach your males basic rules of civilisation teach your females self defense (without weapons) - a good kick or an elbow into you know where does wonders Yeah Aylee, because if you ask the thugs nice and polite, I'm sure they'll tell you the truth. People who break into other people's homes and steal their things are notoriously honest and easy-going. They'd never tell you that all they want is your money and no one will get hurt, then decide they'd like to rape you and your kids while they're there. Or get you to put your guard down and then torture and kill your entire family. At the risk of getting chewed our again over another "Damn Foreigners" remark, why thank you for explaining that all we need to do is teach men the basic rules of civilization. Why, where oh where would we be without some superior European, such as yourself, to explain these things to us. Women should just all become Bruce Lee clones, able to defend themselves from larger, stronger (on average) men, why didn't we think of that? It's so simple. And if someone breaks into your house, you can just scream and hope your neighbor hears. Because no one would ever ignore cries for help, or not want to get involved, or you're just too damn isolated for someone to hear. And them threatening to kill you if you make a noise, I'm sure they're bluffing! Thank you oh so much for sharing your superior German wisdom with us. After all, it's not like Germany has ever had any sort of social upheaval that might make others laugh their asses off at the thought of you giving other countries advise about civilization and violence. Perish the thought.

blnymph -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 5:34:36 AM)
I replied because I was rhetorically asked what a widow should do ... yes we had some experiences in a past ... in regard to "Notwehr" (right of self defense) this is discussed since a famous case in 1805 in German law there is something called "intensiver Notwehrexzess" and the case discussed here has everything qualifying for that intensive excess of self defence - and thus qualifying for nothing else but manslaughter (at the least) or deliberate murder therefore you folks might understand why the interest in this case is so high over here who wants to send a kid over to another country just to get it shot, and see the public over there where it happened to discuss whether that could have been justified by whatever or emphasizing the "guilt" of the victim as if there is no difference between a pack of beer cans and a human life you have your legal system, we got ours - no doubt - and for many good reasons a human life is valued highly but when I read these discussions here which have little to do with legal systems but with everyday violence and how it is dealt with I can't help noticing that some things should be dealt differently than waiting in ambush with a gun if insulting me as arrogant - I could have a few for you as well but I 'll keep them to myself since I was educated to do that - it has to do with something like manners and the like

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 5:55:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph yes we had some experiences in a past ... in regard to "Notwehr" (right of self defense) this is discussed since a famous case in 1805 you have your legal system, we got ours - no doubt - and for many good reasons a human life is valued highly You have two statements here that support each other. You're using the Notwehr of 1805 to emphasize your abhorrence of an isolated incident that occurred in the US in 2014. However, let's put it in a bit more perspective, shall we? Notwehr 1805 Rafle du Vel' d'Hiv 1942 The Horrors of America 2014 Intriguing. Jus sayin

thishereboi -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 6:11:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph getting a sixpack of beers picked from your open garage NEVER can give anyone a legitimate right to take a human life are you completely mad over there??? is there no difference between juvenile foolishness and a capital crime in your minds and law system? this would make a lot more sense if the guy had gotten off, but he didn't did he? So now I have to ask you. Are you completely mad over there? Do you not know the difference between guilty and not guilty? No one slapped the guy on the back and told him to have a nice day, they locked him up because he didn't have a good reason for shooting the kid. And yes some people are going to say the kid had a hand in this also. If he hadn't been sneaking around other people houses he would still be alive. So another question, do you teach your kids to behave over there and do you just let them do what ever the fuck they want to because maybe, just maybe if someone had taught this kid to respect other peoples shit he would he home with his momma right now. And while I suspect you feel all superior sitting over there judging us it doesn't help that kid now does it?

blnymph -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 6:17:55 AM)
the 1805 case is still discussed in German legal literature - the owner of a mill stabbed a burglar - and there are similarities to the case here, and it is still used as an example about the limits of a lawful right of self defence the Vel d'Hiv roundup was (an important part of) a war crime, and Vichy authorities has some part in it as admitted by Mr le President Jacques Chirac in 1995 - and I can't see similarities to this case and the other events you mentioned are discussed in various different threads here pardon but I can't see your point

blnymph -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 6:50:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi ... So another question, do you teach your kids to behave over there and do you just let them do what ever the fuck they want to because maybe, just maybe if someone had taught this kid to respect other peoples shit he would he home with his momma right now. And while I suspect you feel all superior sitting over there judging us it doesn't help that kid now does it? Answer: No it does not help that kid - but maybe justice might help his parents, and I see there is hope there. A burglary is a burglary everywhere - and if he d be caught by the police (and a house owner witnessing it happen should have called them asap) he d probably - taken his minor age - face verdicts ranging from social work to being arrested from a number of days to up to 2 months considering whether it was his first offence or not. One could discuss whether that is a sufficient penalty or not, but that's another matter. 17 year old males are widely known for doing extremely stupid things because of adrenaline overdosing (if not any other) and should be taken appropriate care of - emphasis on appropriate. Shooting them is definitely not. They are also infamous for ignoring what they have been taught ifrom early childhood - that's why in my opinion education of males should take that into account. Answer: There have been discussions about travel warnings to be issued by the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs emphasizing the dangers of trespassing private property in the USA indeed one could compare that danger level to those mentioned in the travel warnings issued for Syria or the African jungle - in brief: do not go there, you risk your life maybe you might be interested in that there is no case reported of a foreign exchange student shot for trespassing or attempted burglary in Germany so your exchange students might be safer here

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 6:58:03 AM)
My point; you are making sweeping generalizations based on a case. You are qualifying and quantifying all Americans based on this case. Are we to assume that war crimes, mass extermination, and other insidious atrocities against humanity are encoded in your DNA because you are German? I do not support this dudes decision and I damn sure think he got off pretty easy. What did not occur to him, and often occurs to me in cases of murder, is that may have been our next Einstein, Picasso, Hawking, etc. that just got snuffed out.

blnymph -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 7:23:41 AM)
I disagree about your claim of "sweeping generalizations." But I also disagree about a proclaimed "guilt" of the victim that might in the slightest way being used to justify what has happened. No matter of genes but a way of ranking beer cans as private property equal to or higher than a human life. I withdraw the "all" of "are you (all) mad" (I did not write "all" at all but "completely" - but maybe it sounds like that in your opinion) - but outrageous madness that sanctification of private property beer cans is - no matter where. I am happy that many of the previous posts on this thread called that crime a crime before I did, and I have absolutely no reason to disagree with them. Whether posted by Americans or non-Americans I do not care. So no need to argue about or search for "national DNAs" here in my opinion.

Musicmystery -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 7:28:23 AM)
It's not a matter of "disagreement." It's a statement of fact, based on observation (i.e., what you posted). See definition of generalization.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 9:21:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I replied because I was rhetorically asked what a widow should do ... yes we had some experiences in a past ... in regard to "Notwehr" (right of self defense) this is discussed since a famous case in 1805 in German law there is something called "intensiver Notwehrexzess" and the case discussed here has everything qualifying for that intensive excess of self defence - and thus qualifying for nothing else but manslaughter (at the least) or deliberate murder therefore you folks might understand why the interest in this case is so high over here who wants to send a kid over to another country just to get it shot, and see the public over there where it happened to discuss whether that could have been justified by whatever or emphasizing the "guilt" of the victim as if there is no difference between a pack of beer cans and a human life you have your legal system, we got ours - no doubt - and for many good reasons a human life is valued highly but when I read these discussions here which have little to do with legal systems but with everyday violence and how it is dealt with I can't help noticing that some things should be dealt differently than waiting in ambush with a gun if insulting me as arrogant - I could have a few for you as well but I 'll keep them to myself since I was educated to do that - it has to do with something like manners and the like It almost seems that you have failed to notice that he was convicted. To try to describe this as something allowed by American law is grossly inaccurate.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 9:27:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi ... So another question, do you teach your kids to behave over there and do you just let them do what ever the fuck they want to because maybe, just maybe if someone had taught this kid to respect other peoples shit he would he home with his momma right now. And while I suspect you feel all superior sitting over there judging us it doesn't help that kid now does it? Answer: No it does not help that kid - but maybe justice might help his parents, and I see there is hope there. A burglary is a burglary everywhere - and if he d be caught by the police (and a house owner witnessing it happen should have called them asap) he d probably - taken his minor age - face verdicts ranging from social work to being arrested from a number of days to up to 2 months considering whether it was his first offence or not. One could discuss whether that is a sufficient penalty or not, but that's another matter. 17 year old males are widely known for doing extremely stupid things because of adrenaline overdosing (if not any other) and should be taken appropriate care of - emphasis on appropriate. Shooting them is definitely not. They are also infamous for ignoring what they have been taught ifrom early childhood - that's why in my opinion education of males should take that into account. Answer: There have been discussions about travel warnings to be issued by the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs emphasizing the dangers of trespassing private property in the USA indeed one could compare that danger level to those mentioned in the travel warnings issued for Syria or the African jungle - in brief: do not go there, you risk your life maybe you might be interested in that there is no case reported of a foreign exchange student shot for trespassing or attempted burglary in Germany so your exchange students might be safer here They are only in danger if they break the law, and this makes America a dangerous place? Are they warned they can go to jail if they get raped in an Arab county, and or flogged? Are they warned about what happens to foreigners who commit crimes in Mexico. Not challenging your word but this is silly.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 9:30:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I disagree about your claim of "sweeping generalizations." But I also disagree about a proclaimed "guilt" of the victim that might in the slightest way being used to justify what has happened. No matter of genes but a way of ranking beer cans as private property equal to or higher than a human life. I withdraw the "all" of "are you (all) mad" (I did not write "all" at all but "completely" - but maybe it sounds like that in your opinion) - but outrageous madness that sanctification of private property beer cans is - no matter where. I am happy that many of the previous posts on this thread called that crime a crime before I did, and I have absolutely no reason to disagree with them. Whether posted by Americans or non-Americans I do not care. So no need to argue about or search for "national DNAs" here in my opinion. Can you accept that one can point out that the kid was in the act of committing a crime when killed without saying the homeowner was right? Nobody is saying the homeowner was right but you can't pretend the kid was walking down the street minding his own business.

Mammiloveshergir -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 9:38:04 AM)
I can share many views here - I hope justice will consider limits of lawful self defence (edited for typos)

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 10:10:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mammiloveshergir I can share many views here - I hope justice will consider limits of lawful self defence (edited for typos) This case, and others we have discussed on here prove that there are limits to lawful self defense. For example were there not this man would not have been convicted.

Aylee -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 2:33:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph do you expect me to teach you to talk to someone and ask? (that is if someone approaches you when you are not displaying a sixpack for picking like it was apparently done here ...) some advices: use your brains talk - get loud - deescalate - at night take a torch light with you teach your males basic rules of civilisation teach your females self defense (without weapons) - a good kick or an elbow into you know where does wonders Let's see. . . a stranger breaks into my house at night and your advice is to have a polite chat with them? De-escalate? What, offer them a hot beverage? Maybe kick them in the elbow? That is crazy talk. We do teach our children the basic rules of civilization which includes Not touching stuff that does not belong to you. I am not sure why you single out males here, that is rather sexist. As far as self-defense goes, with or without weapons is a choice an adult has to make for themselves. Awesomely enough we do have that choice here. I will note that the torchlight may not be the best idea. Ya see, that person that broke into my house may be armed or hoped up on something or just a lunatic and the light will pin point my exact location. That would be doubleplusungood.

cloudboy -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 3:55:20 PM)
quote: A burglary is a burglary everywhere - and if he d be caught by the police (and a house owner witnessing it happen should have called them asap) he d probably - taken his minor age - face verdicts ranging from social work to being arrested from a number of days to up to 2 months considering whether it was his first offence or not. Burglaries typically have a criminal intent element -- intent to commit a felony or a crime of some particular magnitude. When I was in my teens, we used to go Pool Hopping. We'd trespass, jump fences, etc. typically at night -- to go swimming in pools where we weren't members. It was fun, and it felt dangerous. Garage Hopping seems very related, but with am element of petty theft attached. There are group of posters here who strongly advocate protecting "beer cans" (as you call them) with deadly force. It's mind boggling. There is also a whole class of Americans sleeping with guns-at-the-ready in their bedrooms and a swath of innocents and family members mistakenly killed by them in confrontations. The New England Journal of Medicine found that keeping a gun in the home actually increases the likelihood of its inhabitants being shot.

BamaD -> RE: Montana homeowner found guilty in slaying of German exchange student (12/27/2014 4:00:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: A burglary is a burglary everywhere - and if he d be caught by the police (and a house owner witnessing it happen should have called them asap) he d probably - taken his minor age - face verdicts ranging from social work to being arrested from a number of days to up to 2 months considering whether it was his first offence or not. Burglaries typically have a criminal intent element -- intent to commit a felony or a crime of some particular magnitude. When I was in my teens, we used to go Pool Hopping. We'd trespass, jump fences, etc. typically at night -- to go swimming in pools where we weren't members. It was fun, and it felt dangerous. Garage Hopping seems very related, but with am element of petty theft attached. There are group of posters here who strongly advocate protecting "beer cans" (as you call them) with deadly force. It's mind boggling. There is also a whole class of Americans sleeping with guns-at-the-ready in their bedrooms and a swath of innocents killed by them in confrontations. Nobody is defending the homeowner in this case. A couple of people have pointed out that this is not the normal situation when home defense comes into play and many have pointed out the undeniable fact that if the kid had been doing what he was supposed to this couldn't have happened, It doesn't make the home owner right but it is a relevant fact.

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