RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 2:48:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Where does the Constitution say we have to fund rights?



I haven't checked the constitutional amendments, specifically but ...

We fund W.I.C.
We fund H.U.D.
We fund Obummercare
We fund Fanny, Freddie, and Sallie Mae

We fund lots of things that people consider to be rights (and probably are rights). How many times have the voices of the left decried the cost of a photo ID to vote, only to then go on and DEMAND that we pay for those IDs because $3 is a hardship (and I'd be okay with that, too, if someone truly couldn't come up with $3)?

Sorry, we fund lots of rights it's just that, lately, we only fund the "rights" that the left has deigned to declare or acknowledge or push or bastardize or ...



Michael


None of those are rights.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 2:56:15 PM)


I KNEW that would be your response!

Wouldn't W.I.C. fall under the right of "life"?

Wouldn't Obummercare fall under the "right" to health care (promote the general welfare) that so many lefties bitched about, when we finally found out what was in the bill?

Wouldn't the right to live indoors and in a neighborhood where as much as possible was being done to stomp out crime (H.U.D.) constitute "the pursuit of happiness"?

Building on my last point, isn't Fanny/Freddy/Sallie Mae part of that right to live indoors?

I did just a touch of research.

We also fund the NAACP with federal grants. Ditto, the SPLC. We used to fund ACORN.

Like it or not, we fund lots of "rights" and lots of special interest groups.



Michael




mnottertail -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 3:04:17 PM)

We funded the rights of corporations to pay below living wages so we could pay their welfare while they also got various and sundry other subsidies and tax breaks, we paid for cleanup when they wouldnt pony up from their profits money to insure resources in the superfund..........

Yeah, we pay corporations for a lot of rights too.






BamaD -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 3:15:39 PM)

Is the word 'situational' even a real word?


You ask this even though your spell checker recognized it.




BamaD -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 3:25:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And once again you ignore the fact that you at first acknowledged that they thought it was an individual right but that since you have greater wisdom than they had you know we have to pretend it never meant that.


Where does it state in the 2nd, that an insane person can have guns? Did they have medical cures for common mental/emotional disorders back in the 18th century?

All you see is '2nd amendment' and 'fly off the handle' zealously defending something your not entirely educated on before individuals that are. Why is that? Is it because you might have a mental/emotional issue that could make you unstable when around firearms?

An you ignore...ALL...the questions I presented. I frankly dont have to deal with you, until such time as you answer my questions asked in good faith.

I have answered the questions in good faith, it is not my fault they came from an irrational place.
Disagreeing with you is not a sign of instability, on the contrary agreeing with you displays and irrational distrust of both firearms and anyone who owns them.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 3:41:09 PM)

Uh, haven't psychos always been able to have guns?




Musicmystery -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 4:00:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I KNEW that would be your response!

Michael


Then you should have thought through your argument better.

Isn't that the stand-by argument around here? Show me the Constitution?

I'm glad we agree on the legal definition of "rights" anyway.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 4:49:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Uh, haven't psychos always been able to have guns?

~chuckles~




PeonForHer -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 4:59:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Uh, haven't psychos always been able to have guns?


Heh. My first and overriding thought whenever I've looked at the title of this thread. ;-)




BamaD -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 5:09:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Uh, haven't psychos always been able to have guns?


Heh. My first and overriding thought whenever I've looked at the title of this thread. ;-)


You do know that the title of the thread is a gross misrepresentation of what the courts actually said, don't you.
And don't you remember anti gun people stating that you can't put mental health records in the background check system because it would violate their privacy. Now when the courts say that a person has the right (as the law says has said all along) to prove that they are cured anti gun people are outraged that they can get a gun if they prove they are cured of a problem that they previously claimed shouldn't have been there in the first place.
The fact that some feel that wanting a firearm proves you are unstable means that that person is too biased to view this objectively.




Aylee -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 5:21:30 PM)

Since joether has NOT read the court opinion and does not have a clue as to what it was about here are some excerpts:

http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/14a0296p-06.pdf

This case presents an important issue of first impression in the federal courts: whether a prohibition on the possession of firearms by a person “who has been committed to a mental institution,” 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4), violates the Second Amendment. Twenty-eight years ago, Clifford Charles Tyler was involuntarily committed for less than one month after allegedly undergoing an emotionally devastating divorce. Consequently, he can never possess a firearm. Tyler filed suit in federal court, seeking a declaratory judgment that § 922(g)(4) is unconstitutional as applied to him. The district court dismissed Tyler’s suit for failure to state a claim. Because Tyler’s complaint validly states a violation of the Second Amendment, we reverse and remand….

Tyler is a seventy-three-year-old resident of Hillsdale County, Michigan. On January 2, 1986, a state probate court committed Tyler to a mental institution. Tyler alleges that he underwent an emotionally devastating divorce in 1985 and that he was involuntarily committed because of a risk that he might be suicidal.

Tyler submitted a 2012 substance-abuse evaluation containing additional information about his 1985 depression. In 1985, when Tyler was forty-five years old, Tyler’s wife of twenty-three years served him divorce papers. Prior to filing for divorce, Tyler’s ex-wife allegedly ran away with another man and depleted Tyler’s finances. Tyler felt “overwhelmed” and “sat in the middle of the floor at home pounding his head.” According to a mental-health evaluation submitted by Tyler, Tyler was crying non-stop, not sleeping, depressed, and suicidal at this time. Tyler’s daughters became scared and contacted the police. [Tyler was then involuntarily committed. -EV] …

In 2012, Tyler underwent a psychological evaluation. Tyler informed the psychologist that he had never experienced a “depressive episode” other than his 1985 incident. The psychologist’s report indicated that Tyler has no criminal history. The psychologist contacted Tyler’s physician who also reported that she had not detected evidence of mental illness in Tyler. The psychologist determined that Tyler’s prior involuntary commitment “appeared to be a brief reactive depressive episode in response to his wife divorcing him.” The psychologist determined that there was no evidence of mental illness.


``````

The Court’s “assurance” that Heller does not cast doubt on prohibitions on the possession of firearms by the mentally ill does not resolve this case. For § 922(g)(4) prohibits firearm possession not just by the mentally ill but by anyone “who has been committed to a mental institution.” … Heller’s assurance that the state may prohibit the “mentally ill” from possessing firearms may provide solid constitutional ground for § 922(g)(4)’s restriction as to an individual “adjudicated as a mental defective,” but it is insufficient — by itself — to support the restriction as to individuals who have been involuntarily committed at some time in the past.

``````

At issue here is only § 922(g)(4)’s prohibition on possession by persons previously committed to a mental institution. Not all previously institutionalized persons are mentally ill at a later time, so the law is, at least somewhat, overbroad. But is it impermissibly so? Congress, in its efforts to keep firearms away from the mentally ill, may cast a wider net than is necessary to perfectly remove the harm. A “prophylactic approach thus obviate(s) the necessity for large numbers of individualized determinations.” But is § 922(g)(4)’s net too wide? Are previously institutionalized persons sufficiently dangerous, as a class, that it is permissible to deprive permanently all such persons of the Second Amendment right to bear arms?

It is a difficult question but one that we need not answer in the first instance. Congress has already determined that the class of individuals previously committed to a mental institution is not so dangerous that all members must be permanently deprived of firearms. Congress created a relief-from-disabilities program in which individuals subject to a § 922 prohibition can regain their firearm rights by showing that they are unlikely to present a threat. Because this program extends eligibility to all persons subject to any § 922 prohibition, it alone might be insufficient evidence of Congress’s determination that the previously institutionalized are not per se dangerous ….

Congress has chosen not to fund the program since 1992…. Congress’s failure to fund the federal program precludes the judicial review under § 925(c) that would otherwise be available if the government denied his application on the merits. Tyler could apply for relief from a federally-certified state program, but he cannot obtain relief from his state program because Michigan has not created one. If Michigan had a program, Tyler could potentially obtain relief and regain his Second Amendment right because he is not dangerous.

Under this scheme, whether Tyler may exercise his right to bear arms depends on whether his state of residence has chosen to accept the carrot of federal grant money and has implemented a relief program. His right thus would turn on whether his state has taken Congress’s inducement to cooperate with federal authorities in order to avoid losing anti-crime funding. An individual’s ability to exercise a “fundamental righ[t] necessary to our system of ordered liberty” cannot turn on such a distinction. Thus, § 922(g)(4) lacks narrow tailoring as the law is applied to Tyler….

[T]here is a non-zero chance that a previously institutionalized person will commit gun violence in the future, but that is true of all classes of persons. Although the government presents two examples of persons adjudicated as mentally ill who committed gun violence and cites one study in support of the claim that a prior suicide attempt is a “risk facto[r]” for suicide, it has offered not an iota of evidence that prohibiting the previously institutionalized from possessing guns serves its compelling interests. In addition to recognizing that many previously institutionalized persons now are not dangerous and thus that a total ban was not justified, Congress went further. For an entire class of persons, Congress effectively conditioned the ability to exercise a right “necessary to our system of ordered liberty” on whether they reside in a state that has chosen to participate in a joint federal-state administrative scheme….

Tyler alleges that he will not present a danger, and he presents evidence to support that claim. If he lived in a state with a government-certified program, he could potentially regain his Second Amendment right. Because he resides in Michigan, he can never possess a gun, unless Michigan chooses to join the federal program. What is at stake is more than just “influencing a State’s policy choices.” It is the protection of the Second Amendment. For these reasons, § 922(g)(4)’s mental-commitment prohibition’s application to Tyler does not satisfy narrow tailoring….

Tyler’s complaint validly states a claim for a violation of the Second Amendment. The government’s interest in keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill is not sufficiently related to depriving the mentally healthy, who had a distant episode of commitment, of their constitutional rights.

The government at oral argument stated that it currently has no reason to dispute that Tyler is a non-dangerous individual. On remand, the government may, if it chooses, file an answer to Tyler’s complaint to contest his factual allegations. If it declines to do so, the district court should enter a declaration of unconstitutionality as to § 922(g)(4)’s application to Tyler.


***Edited to fix the slash thru




PeonForHer -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 5:39:23 PM)

quote:

You do know that the title of the thread is a gross misrepresentation of what the courts actually said, don't you.


I didn't know that - and I don't really care, TBH. It's always been blindingly clear to me that anyone in the USA who's fancied a spot of hearty psychopathic bloodthirsty murdering has generally been able to get himself a gun to enable his jollies.




Aylee -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 6:00:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

You do know that the title of the thread is a gross misrepresentation of what the courts actually said, don't you.


I didn't know that - and I don't really care, TBH. It's always been blindingly clear to me that anyone in the USA who's fancied a spot of hearty psychopathic bloodthirsty murdering has generally been able to get himself a gun to enable his jollies.


It is just part of joether's "tolerance" for 73 year old men that went through a bad divorce 28 years ago.

But yeah . . . the true murdering assholes typically do not use legal means to fulfill their weapons needs.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 6:10:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I KNEW that would be your response!

Michael


Then you should have thought through your argument better.

Isn't that the stand-by argument around here? Show me the Constitution?

I'm glad we agree on the legal definition of "rights" anyway.



Oh, MM, you're gonna have to do better than that.

I'm assuming that we agree that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are rights, enumerated by the Founding Fathers in the Declaration?

So, there's two of my examples (which I noticed you edited out of my response. Way to skim for shit that you agree with or can ridicule): "life" and "the pursuit of happiness"

If you want constitutional cites, well, ... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects ... " sure sounds like a right to life and safety (pursuit of happiness) the way I read it.

While the foundation the lefties used for the Obummercare argument was actually in the preamble (something pointed out to them time and time, again), I couldn't resist using the PPLs own argument.

" We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Like I said; while not an enumerated right in the body of the Constitution, the PPLs around here certainly bent over backwards to use that as one of the arguments for the "Love Letter To The Insurance Industry" that dear leader called the affordable care act.

Then, we have H.U.D. You disagree that living indoors and safe streets are rights? How very anarchist of you!

Face it; I'm not the one that didn't think out his argument. You failed to think when you professed: "Where does the constitution say we have to fund rights?" The reasons I pointed out were given as the very reasons the constitution exists.



Michael




DesideriScuri -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 6:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
That's right, a three-judge panel of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals rules that those whom have emotional and mental disabilities/problems, can now have firearms. Because apparently no one, including these three judges, remember what happened when some mentally/emotionally unstable individual walked into a small Connecticut elementary school with an assault rifle and butchered 20 little kids and their six teachers......
Should make all the gun nuts happy, since now, even with their 'lost grip on reality', they can keep and use firearms. To anyone else that lives in reality (i.e. Gun Owners, Concern Citizens, those against firearms, etc.), this is a step backwards. Since it will mean....MORE....firearm laws to research through. Since how we as citizens have to determine who is ...too unstable....for a gun, is like our knowledge of what 'DSM-5' means. How many of you know what that means without looking it up? According to these three judges, we'll just throw that book out the window....
And who were the judges?
Boggs, Siler, and Gibbons. Who placed them in this position? Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush (in same order). And what do all three US Presidents have in common? They are all REPUBLICANS. Since Republicans are HUGE fans of the NRA and gun industry, it stands to question if any or all of them had an ulterior motive. Funny that FOX News doesn't mentioned the judges and whom their backers were, isn't it? More so, could be argued this case was a setup all along to undermine decently established laws meant to keep the public safe from unstable individuals. Since more unstable individuals means more firearm laws, and sale of firearms/accessories (i.e. bullets), and, both sides battling out in a never-ending struggle for supremacy.
Rather than just agreeing that the unstable individuals in our society are at a much greater level of miss using firearms for sad if not tragic reasons, then society itself. This is what happens when we have greed trumping common sense.
SOURCE


You're such a partisan hack, it's breathtaking. From your article:
    quote:

    Federal law bans gun ownership for convicted felons, people under 18, illegal immigrants, drug addicts and those ordered by a court to a mental institution. The law also syas [sic] that people must have a chance to prove that their disqualifying disabilities have ended in order to possess a firearm legally.

    Since 2008, states have been able to get federal grants to set up “relief from disabilities program,” which was defunded in 1992. Michigan has not set one up, which left Tyler without a way to prove that his so-called “disability” should no longer apply.


So, the law states that people have to be able to prove their disability has ended, but this guy has no way to do that. His 1 month stay in an institution 28 years ago, is, in your estimation, a proper disqualification for his owning a firearm?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Where does the Constitution say we have to fund rights?


Apparently, the part that says we have to uphold the laws we pass.




Aylee -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 6:49:55 PM)

Actually he is railing against a law that was passed in 1992. [8|]


And he seems unaware that almost everything is a mental disorder anymore.

Caffeine withdrawal is a mental disorder in the DSM-5

The reason for this is because the DSM-5 is used for insurance billing purposes.

So. . . according to joether, if you ever swear off coffee or caffeine you are permanently mental damaged and should have your 2nd amendment rights taken away because you can NEVER be cured.




Kirata -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 7:24:28 PM)


Painting non-violent people who have had mental or emotional problems as dangerous "psychos" is soooo you, joether.

K.





Musicmystery -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 7:26:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I KNEW that would be your response!

Michael


Then you should have thought through your argument better.

Isn't that the stand-by argument around here? Show me the Constitution?

I'm glad we agree on the legal definition of "rights" anyway.



Oh, MM, you're gonna have to do better than that.

I'm assuming that we agree that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are rights, enumerated by the Founding Fathers in the Declaration?

So, there's two of my examples (which I noticed you edited out of my response. Way to skim for shit that you agree with or can ridicule): "life" and "the pursuit of happiness"

If you want constitutional cites, well, ... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects ... " sure sounds like a right to life and safety (pursuit of happiness) the way I read it.

While the foundation the lefties used for the Obummercare argument was actually in the preamble (something pointed out to them time and time, again), I couldn't resist using the PPLs own argument.

" We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Like I said; while not an enumerated right in the body of the Constitution, the PPLs around here certainly bent over backwards to use that as one of the arguments for the "Love Letter To The Insurance Industry" that dear leader called the affordable care act.

Then, we have H.U.D. You disagree that living indoors and safe streets are rights? How very anarchist of you!

Face it; I'm not the one that didn't think out his argument. You failed to think when you professed: "Where does the constitution say we have to fund rights?" The reasons I pointed out were given as the very reasons the constitution exists.



Michael


Stop being a dick. I "edited them out" because I previously, before this post, thought you were smarter than to have to have a government division headed by a cabinet post, entitlement programs, a health care act, taxation, self-funded programs (if mandated), and the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution explained to you.

Point is---y'all want it both ways. First it's show me the Constitution, then it's what about general welfare, depending on what you like or don't like.

Nobody pays the fees for people getting their car licenses back. Nobody pays the fees if you miss your dog license renewal. Why would they pay the fees so you can get guns back that were taken from you for good reason in the first place?

"Right to Bear Arms" doesn't mean "Right to make sure you have them."

So take your blood pressure medication, have some tea, watch a little telly, say your prayers and get a good night's sleep. You've had a tough day.




Aylee -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 7:32:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I KNEW that would be your response!

Michael


Then you should have thought through your argument better.

Isn't that the stand-by argument around here? Show me the Constitution?

I'm glad we agree on the legal definition of "rights" anyway.



Oh, MM, you're gonna have to do better than that.

I'm assuming that we agree that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are rights, enumerated by the Founding Fathers in the Declaration?

So, there's two of my examples (which I noticed you edited out of my response. Way to skim for shit that you agree with or can ridicule): "life" and "the pursuit of happiness"

If you want constitutional cites, well, ... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects ... " sure sounds like a right to life and safety (pursuit of happiness) the way I read it.

While the foundation the lefties used for the Obummercare argument was actually in the preamble (something pointed out to them time and time, again), I couldn't resist using the PPLs own argument.

" We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Like I said; while not an enumerated right in the body of the Constitution, the PPLs around here certainly bent over backwards to use that as one of the arguments for the "Love Letter To The Insurance Industry" that dear leader called the affordable care act.

Then, we have H.U.D. You disagree that living indoors and safe streets are rights? How very anarchist of you!

Face it; I'm not the one that didn't think out his argument. You failed to think when you professed: "Where does the constitution say we have to fund rights?" The reasons I pointed out were given as the very reasons the constitution exists.



Michael


Stop being a dick. I "edited them out" because I previously, before this post, thought you were smarter than to have to have a government division headed by a cabinet post, entitlement programs, a health care act, taxation, self-funded programs (if mandated), and the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution explained to you.

Point is---y'all want it both ways. First it's show me the Constitution, then it's what about general welfare, depending on what you like or don't like.

Nobody pays the fees for people getting their car licenses back. Nobody pays the fees if you miss your dog license renewal. Why would they pay the fees so you can get guns back that were taken from you for good reason in the first place?

"Right to Bear Arms" doesn't mean "Right to make sure you have them."

So take your blood pressure medication, have some tea, watch a little telly, say your prayers and get a good night's sleep. You've had a tough day.


It was not the fees that were unfunded. The federal department to oversee the paperwork and appeals was defunded and left to the states to run. Not all states set one up.




Musicmystery -> RE: Psychos Can Now Have Guns! (12/19/2014 7:38:00 PM)

Just as not all states set up health care exchanges.

It's how it works in this country. Suck it up.




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