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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:17:09 AM

Musicmystery

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Please. There are laws against murder. Hasn't stopped it.

Therefore murder should be legal?

That your logic?

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2015 8:45:05 AM >

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:22:28 AM

Musicmystery

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Come on. You're smarter than this. Add poisoning, and it will still be irrelevant. Apples, oranges.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Tragic....stupid...

Yeah, that describes your post.

Image source: screen grabs of WISQARS results.

K.

Thanks for sharing this about the design, though. That's straight on point:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FYI ~

Experts are still scratching their heads over how this tragic accident could have happened. Veronica Rutledge grew up around guns and knew gun safety. The weapon was a 9mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield, a striker-fired pistol with a manual thumb safety and a 6.5 pound trigger. It was stored in a specialty carry-purse with a zippered closure.

I suspect at least one factor in this accident is what I would consider a design flaw in the weapon. The child didn't have to overcome the 6.5 pound trigger for the gun to go off. With this weapon, once the trigger has been staged, i.e., pulled partially rearward but stopping before the point of firing, releasing it can cause the weapon to discharge.

K.

Thank you, Kirata. That's exactly the kind of thing I was trying to look at until the circus arrived.

Aside from mom's negligence/abandonment/reckless-endangerment/whatever then, addressing this design flaw would/should prevent incidents, yes? After all, sounds like someone could also end up firing when they had changed their mind about it, i.e., not pulled the trigger completely. A dangerous feature.

For the rest, "knowing" and "doing" aren't the same--I'd argue that's not truly "knowing" (like the ER visits that start with "I knew I really shouldn't, but ..."). But it does address my query into my the gun itself wasn't safe from a toddler. I certainly hope Smith and Wesson revisit the design.

I'm boggled by the folks who don't seem to want it safe from a toddler, but probably nothing can be done about that.

We re-call cars with unsafe design features. Are there recalls of unsafe guns?

Learned from Google that firearms are recalled sometimes (though manufacturers like to quibble over whether it's a "fix" or a "recall"

Fix of recall, legislated or not, seems at least responsible people could agree on a weapon not so readily discharged by a toddler, moronic law-breaking mother or not.

We might also explore whether training is adequate. If mom is a veteran of gun safety, and yet left the loaded weapon where the toddler could get it before anyone knew and could stop it, then her training didn't accomplish its purpose.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:22:48 AM

Lucylastic

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oh so all child deaths by idiotic parents irresponsibility are excused by all the texting driving idiots?
delusional
fuck the kids, fuck the realities
but you want more laws on everything else and nothing on guns.
shove it down deep so you can hide from the reality...you might just produce a diamond.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:22:48 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Please. There are laws against murder. Hasn't stopped it.

Therefore there murder should be legal?

That your logic?

Not what she said, not even remotely. It is illegal to commit murder, do we need a laws that describe each method of committing murder, of course not, we have laws against reckless driving, do we need a separate law for each set of conditions that can lead to it, of course not, we have laws against reckless endangerment, do we need a law for each way a person can recklessly endanger people, don't be silly.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:25:17 AM

Musicmystery

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I see the concept of using examples is beyond your processing.

The statement was that because a law isn't stopping everything that it's ineffective. Why does that statement apply only to laws you like and not to ones you don't?

And it's a basic logical fallacy (perfectionist fallacy).

It's precisely what was said -- the concept.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:25:55 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Tragic....stupid...

Yeah, that describes your post.

Image source: screen grabs of WISQARS results.

K.

when you can take a swimmming pool into a walmart it might be relevant
try addressing the actual death of a nine month old baby by gun not try and derail
And not even a decent insult.
pathetic

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:26:36 AM

BamaD

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from mm

We might also explore whether training is adequate. If mom is a veteran of gun safety, and yet left the loaded weapon where the toddler could get it before anyone knew and could stop it, then her training didn't accomplish its purpose.

It has already been pointed out that leaving the gun unattended in a public place is something routinely covered in training classes. This was caused by an unthinking moment.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:29:00 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

you really are an idiot, the gun wasnt any part of it???
maybe the bullet was slammed with a hammer into a nine month old body by a five year old.

No you moron, I said the guy who left the gun out where the kid could get it was responsible. The gun itself is an inanimate object and can't do anything but lie there. Now I understand that you won't accept that explanation and will be back to make another unsubstantiated claim but that habit is getting a little old so don't be surprised if I just ignore it.

the feeling is mutual.
A GUN was the weapon used, just like knives, just like bats. Death of a nine month old, and you wanna place blame and deny everything else.
Remember i actually SAID
Stupid people are the problem as well as what they do with their guns and the justifications used so it can be ignored

that was my point, but again you twist and assume bullshit
wipe your mouth

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:30:20 AM

Musicmystery

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There are a LOT of things covered in classes that never make their way down to student behavioral levels.

"We covered it" and "we accomplished this" are two different things. If it's not getting through, perhaps that needs to be addressed.

As well as the design flaw correction you aren't addressing.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:31:01 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I see the concept of using examples is beyond your processing.

The statement was that because a law isn't stopping everything that it's ineffective. Why does that statement apply only to laws you like and not to ones you don't?

And it's a basic logical fallacy (perfectionist fallacy).

It's precisely what was said -- the concept.

And you missed the point, either you have a comprehension problem or it is deliberate. What I said is, in cases like this, the law already covers it. The only thing a new law does is, at best, make some people feel good and, at worst, penalize people who wouldn't get into this situation anyway.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:33:10 AM

Musicmystery

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Which is why, O Insult-Prone One, I'm looking at better training and addressing the design flaw.

You are guys who keep bringing up "well, it's already illegal to leave the loaded weapon unattended," but you've got no way to enforce it. So stop hiding behind that, and lets look at approaches that will actually help.

We can charge the dead mom after the fact. Not sure that will help a lot.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:44:55 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Come on. You're smarter than this. Add poisoning, and it will still be irrelevant. Apples, oranges.

It ain't apples and oranges to anybody genuinely concerned about "tragic... stupid" accidental deaths of children.

K.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:46:30 AM

quizzicalkitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Which is why, O Insult-Prone One, I'm looking at better training and addressing the design flaw.

You are guys who keep bringing up "well, it's already illegal to leave the loaded weapon unattended," but you've got no way to enforce it. So stop hiding behind that, and lets look at approaches that will actually help.

We can charge the dead mom after the fact. Not sure that will help a lot.

Prove its a design flaw.... you have what someone says they consider a flaw...about something that might happen.

I own this particular gun.. shoot it twice a week...

I pull the trigger and stop half way to readjust grip or sight and my gun doesnt go off. It fires with a fully pulled trigger only. It stuck in the half depressed state and didnt go off when putting the gun down or anything else. (Ie fixing the stick)

The gun has two models...one with and one without a safety ive read nothing on this instance where theyve proven the gun was a model with a safety.....

Lastly...

Gun manufacturers spend millions on making guns as safe and stupid proof as possible. Every redesign every new gun theres a guy who takes the new model and drops it loaded from various hights to ensure no accidental discharge. They go through as many stupid people do x situations as they can.

How about fucking laws on stupid people instead of the guns..

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:46:33 AM

Musicmystery

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I'm pretty sure firearms and pools will require different solutions in preventing the deaths of those children.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:48:05 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten
Prove its a design flaw....

Sure.

A toddler pull it out of a purse and fired it, killing mom.

Not much of an effective safety design.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:48:06 AM

quizzicalkitten

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No they dont mm they both require parents to watch their children and not leave them unattended. And the law is already there saying they need to do this...

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:49:47 AM

Musicmystery

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The laws in both are very different indeed.

THIS is why I roll my eyes at "gun-nuttery" (vs. responsible gun-owning citizens). You are being deliberately obtuse and ridiculous.

But if you think requiring a fence around guns will help, like we do swimming pools, make your case.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:50:11 AM

quizzicalkitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten
Prove its a design flaw....

Sure.

A toddler pull it out of a purse and fired it, killing mom.

Not much of an effective safety design.

Pulling a trigger isnt that hard...

Show me where they say the gun was a model with a safety and that the safety was on

Show me where in studies of this gun where in half depressed stare and releasing the trigger regularly and repeatedly causes the gun to fire.

Prove its an issue with the gun..

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:50:52 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm pretty sure firearms and pools will require different solutions in preventing the deaths of those children.

And I'm pretty sure that going after something twelve times as deadly would be more productive, if preventing accidental deaths of children was the real concern.

K.

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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 8:53:04 AM

quizzicalkitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The laws in both are very different indeed.

THIS is why I roll my eyes at "gun-nuttery" (vs. responsible gun-owning citizens). You are being deliberately obtuse and ridiculous.

But if you think requiring a fence around guns will help, like we do swimming pools, make your case.

But fences around pools arent required in all states and even eith a fence kids drown....

Ergo the magical law doesnt keep kids safe from pools anymore then the countless already in place gun laws do to keep kids away from guns...

It all comes down to parental negligence.... solve that and youll have less of these tragic situations

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