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RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 10:57:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But on revolvers (although most cheap ones are implemented with a hex head, you can have a mechanism (usually an eccentric cam with slide that prevents the hammer from moving from the "closed" position.

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 381
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 10:58:40 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Which is why, O Insult-Prone One, I'm looking at better training and addressing the design flaw.

You are guys who keep bringing up "well, it's already illegal to leave the loaded weapon unattended," but you've got no way to enforce it. So stop hiding behind that, and lets look at approaches that will actually help.

We can charge the dead mom after the fact. Not sure that will help a lot.

I asked you before and you never answered how do you enforce it?
And you just said that just because it is part of of the training doesn't mean it gets to the students, so that makes (according to you) useless.
Of course flaws should be fixed, but that is covered under product law.

No, it's not. The manufacturer denies the flaw.

That will take legal action -- unless you mean "suing the company to force the change" as "covered under product law."

Guess that's the next step.

As for training -- Jesus Christ. Like any training program, you assess, and when it's not happening, you address it, and measure the results.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2015 11:00:13 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 382
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:02:29 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

From Kirata's description, seems fixing this flaw would indeed stand a good chance of preventing unsafe toddler gun-handling.

Since it clearly needs to be addressed anyway, it's a place to start -- and given the manufacturer refuses to acknowledge the flaw, it will take legal action of some sort.





Again that would be product law.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 383
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:03:28 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

One safety feature, already available on all guns, is to simply leave the firing chamber empty. That, alone, would virtually eliminate all accidental shootings where a toddler discharges the weapon, and would definitely (in my opinion) drastically reduce accidental shootings by older children. Getting the adult owners of said weapons to actually do this would be the real trick, since it reduces the available firepower by one round.

It would also reduce the number of gun owners. A firearm without a round in the chamber is called a "paperweight," and people without one in the pipe when they need to shoot are called "dead" (like this guy).

K.



That is how I feel about it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 384
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:03:38 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Here's a modified M&P for Lucy...



It don't get safer than that.

K.




considering I didnt and HAVENT mentioned the gun thats being passed around, OR anything to do with safety modifications
assumptions make you look bloody stupid

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 385
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:03:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Try actually reading my posts before refuting what's already been answered.

Thanks.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 386
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:05:36 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Which is why, O Insult-Prone One, I'm looking at better training and addressing the design flaw.

You are guys who keep bringing up "well, it's already illegal to leave the loaded weapon unattended," but you've got no way to enforce it. So stop hiding behind that, and lets look at approaches that will actually help.

We can charge the dead mom after the fact. Not sure that will help a lot.

I asked you before and you never answered how do you enforce it?
And you just said that just because it is part of of the training doesn't mean it gets to the students, so that makes (according to you) useless.
Of course flaws should be fixed, but that is covered under product law.

No, it's not. The manufacturer denies the flaw.

That will take legal action -- unless you mean "suing the company to force the change" as "covered under product law."

Guess that's the next step.

As for training -- Jesus Christ. Like any training program, you assess, and when it's not happening, you address it, and measure the results.

Of course that is what I mean.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 387
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:07:36 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Then why didn't you simply suggest suing the manufacturer 20 pages ago?



if gun owners were *leading* the charge over problems like this, instead of excusing and dodging and creating straw men "you just want to ban all guns," I'd stop seeing those of you who do this you as nuts.

Probably a lot of other people would too, and we'd all be safer if knowledgeable gun owners were advancing gun safety, instead of resisting it, as the NRA tends to do in it's opposition to nearly anything regulatory.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2015 11:11:56 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:12:19 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Then why didn't you simply suggest suing the manufacturer 20 pages ago?



Why didn't the possibility of a design flaw come up then.
At that time we didn't even know what kind of gun it was.
Or do you suggest that I should have a knee jerk reaction to sue the manufacturer any time there is an accident?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 389
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:17:19 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Sigh.

Just sigh.

You are hopeless.

You have one mode--defensiveness through rhetorical straw-man questions.

Sigh. Just...sigh.

For PAGES the point was repeated about making a gun a toddler couldn't simply fire. What do you suppose the options are for that? Either something needs to be added to make it safer, or some flaw that was supposed to make it safer needs to be fixed. Why didn't that occur to you, O Gun Expert?

Nope. Just circling the wagons to defend against your straw men.

Sigh.

And now, at the end, with common ground discovered...you want to keep on doing it, when it's clearly pointless.

That's pretty much knee jerk.

I think this discussion has reached its close. You'll repeat your straw men, I'll repeat that I don't hold those positions, you'll insist I didn't answer some question that I did repeatedly and demand solutions, I'll repeat mine about training and design, you'll want me to lay out specifics, which I clearly am not going to do as it's not my purview or vocation or area of expertise, which you'll use to pretend it's all useless.

It's not useless. Unless you insist anything would be useless as if that's an argument.

That's the defensive knee jerk gun-nutter part. Here's the part where you rant about gun control nutters, as if that changes anything about these solutions.

Enjoy.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2015 11:22:32 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 390
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:19:27 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I do not believe that it was zippered in a case, in a purse with the safety on, as was said.

No way.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 391
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:25:05 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

From Kirata's description, seems fixing this flaw would indeed stand a good chance of preventing unsafe toddler gun-handling.

Since it clearly needs to be addressed anyway, it's a place to start -- and given the manufacturer refuses to acknowledge the flaw, it will take legal action of some sort.








It would stand a chance from an accidental toddler discharge, (ATD) I don't know what the probability is but it certainly wouldn't be toddler proof.

When you say it's a start, is that code for adding more safeties to all handguns is next ?

But yes, design flaws and defects should clearly be addressed.


And that's how you got included in the gun-nutter-defensive-no-matter-what crowd. Any reasonable change triggers your paranoia. Hopefully you're simply joking here.

Your last sentence gives me hope.


Thanks for including me in the gun nut crowd but the part you bolded was a question to you. I'm going to infer that you still think adding more safeties to all handguns, by law, is a kewl idea. Legislating additional safeties for handguns by people (anti gun law makers) who mostly don't know what they're talking about and calling for it by you, who admitted earlier don't know what you're talking about is not reasonable .

I doubt you'll find any pro gun folks who don't think design defects shouldn't be fixed. Regardless, it won't stop a kid from discharging a loaded firearm. Even if we were to make handguns childproof, that would be in and of itself, a deliberate design defect.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 392
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:26:23 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No, its code for you are a typical paranoic nutsucker.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 393
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:28:19 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'd suggest reading what I *actually* write instead of inferring what you choose to refute instead.

See reply to Bama. If the shoe fits.

And again. Toddler. A TODDLER.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:28:40 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

considering I didnt and HAVENT mentioned the gun thats being passed around, OR anything to do with safety modifications
assumptions make you look bloody stupid

Aww now Lucy, I didn't say you had. I was just trying to make you happy.

K.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 395
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:33:01 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But on revolvers (although most cheap ones are implemented with a hex head, you can have a mechanism (usually an eccentric cam with slide that prevents the hammer from moving from the "closed" position.


So........how would you move the hammer in order to fire it ?

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:41:46 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'd suggest reading what I *actually* write instead of inferring what you choose to refute instead.

See reply to Bama. If the shoe fits.

And again. Toddler. A TODDLER.


You have clearly and not so clearly stated on this thread that you think additional safeties should be added to handguns. If you don't want people to infer then stop talking in riddles and spell it out.

I think I can speak for most gun owners that design defects on firearms should be addressed. I believe you stated in some way or riddle that we are in agreement on that.

OOPs, yes, a TODDLER, not just any young child, I stand corrected.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 1/20/2015 11:44:33 AM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 397
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:43:40 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But on revolvers (although most cheap ones are implemented with a hex head, you can have a mechanism (usually an eccentric cam with slide that prevents the hammer from moving from the "closed" position.


So........how would you move the hammer in order to fire it ?



Those cheapies? you loosen the hex head, actually the taurus hammerless (hidden hammer) 357 (a typical cop model has this) and thats how that works. That safety is for the home and storage, not for quick shooting situations.

But the better models have a hammer lock like the typical double barrel slide.

A Kahr (CW or CWP) 9mm or 40 or 41 or 45 doesnt have any safety at all, its another typical cop gun.


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/20/2015 11:48:56 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:44:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Since that's been spelled out, and yet this discussion line is still going on, my remarks stand. If that's a riddle to you, find a reading tutor.

Yes, I think fixing this design flaw, whether you semantically call that a safety feature or not, is necessary.

If that hasn't been clear to you, I can't imagine why.

I hope it finally is now.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2015 11:45:41 AM >

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 399
RE: Another "successful" carry story - 1/20/2015 11:46:51 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		Whatever LOL

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 400
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