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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:00:44 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Actually, earlier in 2014, Hamas and the PA agreed to a merger of representation, provoking Netanyahu's attack on Gaza.


How did that work out vincent... below is why....

"The leader of Hamas says his organization will not give up terrorism against Israel even if it forges ahead with plans to join the Palestinian Authority government that would for the first time in years create a single authority to rule in both Gaza and the parts of the West Bank not controlled by Israel."

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/6/2015 2:01:41 PM >


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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:02:32 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

It's hard to label it as apartheid, Israel is a small country of misplaced people who dealt with a very massive tragedy in a post modern world and who have fought hard and accomplished recognition through their relentless desire to succeed.


So, these tragically misplaced people just happened to show up one day in the villages and farmlands of Palestine? And the Zionist movement was not born before the Nazi Holocaust? Humans have an amazing ability to recreate the History of events to fit their own ideologies, I think. You should go back and refresh your knowledge of what happened.

Very easy to label apartheid comments that appeared in the article you linked. Jim Crow deja vu?


< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/6/2015 2:13:16 PM >

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:12:02 PM   
vincentML


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~fr~

Israeli military divided over Gaza war probes

JERUSALEM (AP) — A fierce debate is raging within Israel's military over the extent to which soldiers should be held legally accountable for their actions during last year's Gaza war, with commanders increasingly at odds with military lawyers.

The dispute has set off a firestorm in Israel, where many say the legal threat would shackle soldiers in any future battle, lower their morale and shatter a sacred trust on which Israel's compulsory military service relies.

But with the Palestinians announcing their application last week to the International Criminal Court, the decision to investigate becomes all the more pressing: A robust Israeli inquiry into its military's actions could be essential in thwarting an embarrassing and potentially incriminating outside probe.


SNIP, SNIP

Israel's military advocate general, Danny Efroni, is seen as the leader of the drive to investigate soldiers. Efroni and his legal team have received more than 100 complaints regarding incidents from last summer's war and plan to conduct criminal investigations into at least 10, including the deaths of four boys in an Israeli strike on a Gaza beach on July 16 and an attack on a U.N. school on July 24.

Efroni's perspective, military analysts say, views an internal investigation as preferable to a potential probe by the International Criminal Court. The military said Israel is "obligated" to examine every incident where a crime is suspected to have taken place. "This obligation is based on both Israeli and international law," the military said in a statement.



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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:21:58 PM   
vincentML


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~fr~

B’Tselem: Israel wants to have its cake and eat it too when it comes to Geneva Convention

The High Contracting Parties also addressed the continued occupation and its impact on the local population. B’Tselem wishes to point out that the occupation, which is meant to be of a temporary nature, is nearing its fiftieth year, with no end in sight. Through all these years, Israel has managed the occupied territory in blatant disregard for the provisions of the Convention: collective punishment, expulsion, destruction of property, settlements, disregard for the needs of the local population and blatant discrimination are all inherent elements of Israel’s policy in the Occupied Territories.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:27:10 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Actually, earlier in 2014, Hamas and the PA agreed to a merger of representation, provoking Netanyahu's attack on Gaza.


How did that work out vincent... below is why....

"The leader of Hamas says his organization will not give up terrorism against Israel even if it forges ahead with plans to join the Palestinian Authority government that would for the first time in years create a single authority to rule in both Gaza and the parts of the West Bank not controlled by Israel."


Why should anyone be expected to give up 'terrorism' when its land is under severe blockade, which is itself an act of war committed against Gaza by Israel? When one party has their hands around the throat of another it seems hardly fitting to expect the strangled to play nice. How silly.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:40:57 PM   
kdsub


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vincent... it is only under block aid because it refuses to give up the violence

It has always been the fault of both sides in this conflict...and until they BOTH realize this and BOTH decide enough is enough it will continue.

AND

It will continue until Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular finally agree to Israel's right to exist... and Israel agrees to Palestine's right of self government and sovereignty and secured agreed upon borders... Can you honestly tell me that either side is doing this?

I don't understand people who refuse to see the fault of both sides in this tragedy and understand that taking sides of one against the other just increases the suffering in the area.... They are like little kids that need the playground teacher to pinch their arms and pull them apart and make them shake hands... or paddle their butts.

This hate has gone beyond good sense and reason.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/6/2015 2:49:17 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:54:48 PM   
BitYakin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It's hard to label it as apartheid, Israel is a small country of misplaced people who dealt with a very massive tragedy in a post modern world and who have fought hard and accomplished recognition through their relentless desire to succeed.


So, these tragically misplaced people just happened to show up one day in the villages and farmlands of Palestine? And the Zionist movement was not born before the Nazi Holocaust? Humans have an amazing ability to recreate the History of events to fit their own ideologies, I think. You should go back and refresh your knowledge of what happened.

Very easy to label apartheid comments that appeared in the article you linked. Jim Crow deja vu?



those tragically misplaced people where there the WHOLE TIME, gezz open a history book, one that looks back past ohhh say 0000 AD...
not saying the Hebrews didn't displace anyone ever, but lets be real here, that was like over couple thousand years ago and they have been there continuously ever since
pretty much every empire that's ever existed has invaded that area and put it under military rule and the WHOLE TIME the Hebrew people where THERE..
let's not forget the people who now call themselves Palestinians, started out as Persian INVADERS, making them the Johnny come latelys not the Hebrews

what's your point about Zionism beginning prior to 1940's

are you saying that they didn't have a legitimate clam until AFTER their was an attempted genocide of their race?

I feel they had a legitimate claim all along, and it took the holocaust for the rest of the world to say, "HEYY maybe they have a good point here"! maybe they do deserve a place of their own and MAYBE it should be someplace they have already been for THOUSANDS of years

I guess some people just can't stand a race of people that survive and then succeed where ever they go

using the Hebrew/Jewish people as an example kinda really blows that whole "WOA IS ME, I'M BLACK" thing right out if the water, when you consider at one time they were practically whipped from existence.



< Message edited by BitYakin -- 1/6/2015 3:02:21 PM >


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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 2:59:02 PM   
BitYakin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Actually, earlier in 2014, Hamas and the PA agreed to a merger of representation, provoking Netanyahu's attack on Gaza.


How did that work out vincent... below is why....

"The leader of Hamas says his organization will not give up terrorism against Israel even if it forges ahead with plans to join the Palestinian Authority government that would for the first time in years create a single authority to rule in both Gaza and the parts of the West Bank not controlled by Israel."


Why should anyone be expected to give up 'terrorism' when its land is under severe blockade, which is itself an act of war committed against Gaza by Israel? When one party has their hands around the throat of another it seems hardly fitting to expect the strangled to play nice. How silly.



so let me ask a question here, are you saying Israel wants to OWN the Gaza strip,
I am trying to understand what YOU think is their motive for the blockade..

they are just HATEFULL people? is that what you are saying? or is it about conquest and ownership of the land?

_____________________________

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 3:19:58 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

It will continue until Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular finally agree to Israel's right to exist... and Israel agrees to Palestine's right of self government and sovereignty and secured agreed upon borders... Can you honestly tell me that either side is doing this?

Repeating here, these were preconditions agreed to and established prior to the Oslo negotiations in 1993 (?) It was all written down then. Israel keeps repeating the Big Lie.

quote:

I don't understand people who refuse to see the fault of both sides in this tragedy and understand that taking sides of one against the other just increases the suffering in the area....


Butch, how can you talk about shared blame and moral equivalency while one side has occupied the land of the other for so many years and violated the demands placed upon the occupier by the Fourth Geneva Convention?

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 3:24:13 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Didn't the Balfour Declaration have something to do with establishing the jewish homeland ? And then, of course, the Brits reneged on it. If it did, It was a little before the Oslo negotiations.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 3:30:50 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
those tragically misplaced people where there the WHOLE TIME, gezz open a history book, one that looks back past ohhh say 0000 AD...
not saying the Hebrews didn't displace anyone ever, but lets be real here, that was like over couple thousand years ago and they have been there continuously ever since
pretty much every empire that's ever existed has invaded that area and put it under military rule and the WHOLE TIME the Hebrew people where THERE..
let's not forget the people who now call themselves Palestinians, started out as Persian INVADERS, making them the Johnny come latelys not the Hebrews

what's your point about Zionism beginning prior to 1940's

are you saying that they didn't have a legitimate clam until AFTER their was an attempted genocide of their race?

I feel they had a legitimate claim all along, and it took the holocaust for the rest of the world to say, "HEYY maybe they have a good point here"! maybe they do deserve a place of their own and MAYBE it should be someplace they have already been for THOUSANDS of years

I guess some people just can't stand a race of people that survive and then succeed where ever they go

using the Hebrew/Jewish people as an example kinda really blows that whole "WOA IS ME, I'M BLACK" thing right out if the water, when you consider at one time they were practically whipped from existence.




The Palestinians sprang from the Persians ?

Seems to me you are the one in need of a history book.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 3:55:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

pretty much every empire that's ever existed has invaded that area and put it under military rule and the WHOLE TIME the Hebrew people where THERE..
let's not forget the people who now call themselves Palestinians, started out as Persian INVADERS, making them the Johnny come latelys not the Hebrews

The oral and written sources are conflicting but there is little debate that the Israelites were taken into exile by Nebuchadnezzar, who destroyed the first Temple Approx 6th C BCE. The Babylonian Talmud was written by Jews in exile during those times. It was the Persians who returned the Jews to Jerusalem with the promise to rebuild the Temple. Folowing the conquests of the Persians by Alexander the Jews remained in exile throughout Asia Minor from Damascus to Alexandria where a great Library was constructed to house the Greek translated Torah. Greek was the 'lingua franca' throughout the Levant during the Hellenistic Period. The Jews were expelled again when they rebelled against the Romans. It stretches the imagination to believe the Jews were the indigenous people throughout all that time of comings and goings. And really? The Palestinians started out as Persians? Historical revisionism is a fun game but that don't make it necessarily so.

quote:

I feel they had a legitimate claim all along, and it took the holocaust for the rest of the world to say, "HEYY maybe they have a good point here"! maybe they do deserve a place of their own and MAYBE it should be someplace they have already been for THOUSANDS of years

The Biblical claim is that some iron age god gave the land to his chosen people who invaded and slew the inhabitants. I know of no 'legitimate' claim. Can you be more specific? I reject the Biblical foundation of ownership. The Palestinians had deeds to their properties registered with the Ottoman empire before the Hagana and the Stern Gang destroyed their farms and 400 villages.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 3:58:31 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

so let me ask a question here, are you saying Israel wants to OWN the Gaza strip,
I am trying to understand what YOU think is their motive for the blockade..

Yes. Israel is intent on colonizing all the land between the Jordan and the Med Sea. See Tweakabelle's post way up above.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/6/2015 4:00:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Didn't the Balfour Declaration have something to do with establishing the jewish homeland ? And then, of course, the Brits reneged on it. If it did, It was a little before the Oslo negotiations.

The Balfour Declaration was a letter written from one Brit to some others. It has no force of international law that I know of.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/7/2015 12:47:08 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

It's hard to label it as apartheid,

Really??? perhaps you can suggest a more accurate term to describe a system that divides people according to their race and then imposes:
* Different legal systems where one race has all the rights and freedoms of democratic citizens anywhere and the other race has no rights
* Different voting rights where one side has universal suffrage and the other race doesn't even get a vote;
* Different rights of residence where one race is forbidden to live in large tracts of the country;
* Different security regimes;
* Different education systems where most of the resources are allocated to one side and a trickle to the other;
* Different water rights where one side gets most of the water;
* Different travel rights both within the country and internationally; and .....
I could go on and on but I am sure you get the picture. In the Occupied West Bank all the above and more are imposed to divide the races and to subjugate Palestinians. If it's not apartheid, please tell us which term more accurately describes the above.

As far as I know, there is no other term in the English language that describes the above more accurately than apartheid. The experts on apartheid, the South Africans, who have had direct experience of apartheid - it is where the term was first coined - have an 'Israeli Apartheid Week' to highlight Israeli apartheid. You can read South African anti-apartheid leader Desmond Tutu's remarks on Israeli apartheid here.

It is looks like, sounds like and functions like apartheid then it is apartheid, no matter its location in the world, who is doing it or whatever rationalisations or claims they advance to justify/excuse it. .Under international law, apartheid is a crime. Yet another reason for Israel to dread having to front up to a neutral international court and having to account for its odious despicable apartheid policies.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/7/2015 12:49:49 AM >


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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/7/2015 12:50:19 AM   
thursdays


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Err.... the British supported the creation of Israel. I am not enirely sure how that can be charaterised as "reneging" on the balfour declaration.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/7/2015 12:56:41 AM   
thursdays


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It's hard to label it as apartheid, Israel is a small country of misplaced people who dealt with a very massive tragedy in a post modern world and who have fought hard and accomplished recognition through their relentless desire to succeed.


So, these tragically misplaced people just happened to show up one day in the villages and farmlands of Palestine? And the Zionist movement was not born before the Nazi Holocaust? Humans have an amazing ability to recreate the History of events to fit their own ideologies, I think. You should go back and refresh your knowledge of what happened.

Very easy to label apartheid comments that appeared in the article you linked. Jim Crow deja vu?



those tragically misplaced people where there the WHOLE TIME, gezz open a history book, one that looks back past ohhh say 0000 AD...
not saying the Hebrews didn't displace anyone ever, but lets be real here, that was like over couple thousand years ago and they have been there continuously ever since
pretty much every empire that's ever existed has invaded that area and put it under military rule and the WHOLE TIME the Hebrew people where THERE..
let's not forget the people who now call themselves Palestinians, started out as Persian INVADERS, making them the Johnny come latelys not the Hebrews


So what year should we go back to when it comes to redrawing the borders... Perhaps the UN should agree to reset all borders to the position they were in in 1BC?

I can see some problems with that rationale, mind you.

quote:


what's your point about Zionism beginning prior to 1940's

are you saying that they didn't have a legitimate clam until AFTER their was an attempted genocide of their race?

I feel they had a legitimate claim all along, and it took the holocaust for the rest of the world to say, "HEYY maybe they have a good point here"! maybe they do deserve a place of their own and MAYBE it should be someplace they have already been for THOUSANDS of years


If your belief that they have a legitiate claim based on historical borders, then I'm afraid it's a fallacy. The "we were there 1000's of years ago" argument is the weakest of all of them.


I guess some people just can't stand a race of people that survive and then succeed where ever they go

using the Hebrew/Jewish people as an example kinda really blows that whole "WOA IS ME, I'M BLACK" thing right out if the water, when you consider at one time they were practically whipped from existence.





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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/7/2015 9:55:58 AM   
kdsub


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Vincent we have been over and over the legitimacy of the State of Israel... so rather than bring that up lets just assume it was and is a fact of reality. Now... from it's inception it has been attacked over and over with the only reason being its very existence.

If , for instance, you did not like me, hard to believe, and you had a home on a hill overlooking mine... And you could shoot down into my home from the protection of the hill you lived on I would have no choice but to take it from you or give up... That is exactly what Israel did legitimately... It was the fault of the Palestinians and their allies that the land was lost. So crying over lost land will do no good until you would stop trying to kill me.

So what happened then... the Palestinians retaliated...and Israel retaliated and the Palestinians retaliated and Israel retaliated... do you get my point?

I can see where this could reach a point, which it is approaching now, where Israel will get tired of the constant conflict and completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza...and say fuck you to world opinion. I believe this is what is behind the settlements, which I agree with you are simply land grabs and Israeli aggression worthy of retaliation.

There is NO solution other than compromise and land grabs and political propaganda such as the ICC crap will just continue to torture all in the Middle East.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/7/2015 9:56:29 AM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/7/2015 10:32:38 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
those tragically misplaced people where there the WHOLE TIME, gezz open a history book, one that looks back past ohhh say 0000 AD...
not saying the Hebrews didn't displace anyone ever, but lets be real here, that was like over couple thousand years ago and they have been there continuously ever since
pretty much every empire that's ever existed has invaded that area and put it under military rule and the WHOLE TIME the Hebrew people where THERE..
let's not forget the people who now call themselves Palestinians, started out as Persian INVADERS, making them the Johnny come latelys not the Hebrews

what's your point about Zionism beginning prior to 1940's

are you saying that they didn't have a legitimate clam until AFTER their was an attempted genocide of their race?

I feel they had a legitimate claim all along, and it took the holocaust for the rest of the world to say, "HEYY maybe they have a good point here"! maybe they do deserve a place of their own and MAYBE it should be someplace they have already been for THOUSANDS of years

I guess some people just can't stand a race of people that survive and then succeed where ever they go

using the Hebrew/Jewish people as an example kinda really blows that whole "WOA IS ME, I'M BLACK" thing right out if the water, when you consider at one time they were practically whipped from existence.




The Palestinians sprang from the Persians ?

Seems to me you are the one in need of a history book.



don't think so? lets go back a mere 2100ish years....

The Jewish–Roman wars were a series of large-scale revolts by the Jews of the Eastern Mediterranean against the Roman Empire between 66 and 135 CE. The revolts integrated nationalist, religious and ethnic elements, all spiraling towards violence between Jewish, Roman, and Greek populations. While the First Jewish–Roman War (66-73 CE) and the Bar Kokhba revolt (132-135 CE) were nationalist rebellions, striving to restore an independent Judean state, the Kitos War was more of an ethno-religious conflict, mostly fought outside of Judea province. Hence, some sources use the term Jewish-Roman Wars to refer only to the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE) and the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–135 CE), while others include the Kitos War (115–117 CE) as one of the Jewish–Roman wars.

The Jewish–Roman wars had an epic impact on the Jews, turning them from a major population in the Eastern Mediterranean into a scattered and persecuted minority. The Jewish-Roman Wars are often cited as a disaster to Jewish society.[4] The events also had a major impact on Judaism, after the central worship site of Second Temple Judaism, the Second Temple in Jerusalem, was destroyed by Titus' troops. Although having a sort of autonomy in the Galilee until the 4th century such as the Council of Jamnia (or Yavne), and later a limited success in establishing the short-lived Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth in 614-17 CE, Jewish dominance in parts of the Southern Levant was regained only in the mid-20th century, with the founding of the state of Israel in 1948.


did you see ANY mention of arabs? or muslems?

any mention of synagogues being destroyed?

nooo

so what does that tell us? that the arab/mulsems came AFTER this time period which makes them either SQUATERS or INVADERS, you pick.

ever hear about that dome at the rock thing?

you know the place the where the arab's tore down a jewish temple and built their own temple..

which would strongly IMPLY they INVADED and tore down an EXISTING structure to build their own...

I've heard of squatters moving into and claiming existing structure, so far never heard of em tearing one down and building a NEW ONE

care to show some actual HISTORY that refutes what I have shown or just going to call me a doo doo head again?
















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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/7/2015 10:56:03 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

so let me ask a question here, are you saying Israel wants to OWN the Gaza strip,
I am trying to understand what YOU think is their motive for the blockade..

Yes. Israel is intent on colonizing all the land between the Jordan and the Med Sea. See Tweakabelle's post way up above.


really? so explain to me WHY they returned the Gaza strip when after the 6 day war they basicly owned it, the Sinai peninsula, Golan heights, and the whole of the west bank territory?

why would they give all that land BACK, if their intent was to STEAL IT?

more of that revisionist history you claim I made up?
seems YOU are the one wanting to ignore things that happened as recently as 1/2 a century ago...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

there is this little MAP on that page, it shows the area held by Israel after the 6 day war, funny how they gave MOST of that land back, yet you claim they are intent on stealing it...



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