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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/8/2015 5:05:30 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Religious ideologies are in conflict in many places in the world. The Zionist founders were secular, many even atheists, and of course political socialists. Religious differences are only a handy strawman, IMO.


I don't care if you think it's a strawman argument or not. Sure, there are religious ideologies in conflict all over, but, in the ME, it sure seems like it's cause for war, doesn't it? Sunni vs. Shia ring a bell (and, FFS, those are just different sects of the same, general, religion!)?




Catholics and Protestants not ring a bell ? Odd how the same people, when asked about wrong doing by Christians say it isnt the religion, its the people. Yet when they talk about Muslims the say its the religion.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/8/2015 5:42:14 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Religious ideologies are in conflict in many places in the world. The Zionist founders were secular, many even atheists, and of course political socialists. Religious differences are only a handy strawman, IMO.

I don't care if you think it's a strawman argument or not. Sure, there are religious ideologies in conflict all over, but, in the ME, it sure seems like it's cause for war, doesn't it? Sunni vs. Shia ring a bell (and, FFS, those are just different sects of the same, general, religion!)?

Catholics and Protestants not ring a bell ? Odd how the same people, when asked about wrong doing by Christians say it isnt the religion, its the people. Yet when they talk about Muslims the say its the religion.


If you're talking about Northern Ireland, where have I stated that it's not about religion? I haven't stated that it is about religion, that it's not about religion, or that it is or isn't about the people there. So, you're just making assumptions, aren't you?

Why is the area so valued by both sides?


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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 12:56:50 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Religious ideologies are in conflict in many places in the world. The Zionist founders were secular, many even atheists, and of course political socialists. Religious differences are only a handy strawman, IMO.


I don't care if you think it's a strawman argument or not. Sure, there are religious ideologies in conflict all over, but, in the ME, it sure seems like it's cause for war, doesn't it? Sunni vs. Shia ring a bell (and, FFS, those are just different sects of the same, general, religion!)?


The conflict in Northern Ireland was between two sides with incompatible political ideologies (Republicanism vs Loyalism) demarcated by religious differences. The conflict in South Africa was between two sides with different and incompatible political ideologies (apartheid vs democracy) demarcated by racial differences. While the conflicts were ongoing, there was no shortage of voices claiming that the differences between the two sides in both locations were simply too great for any viable compromise to be negotiated. However, when it became clear that no side could achieve a total military victory and that therefore a political agreement had to be reached the Irish and Sth Africans found the political will and means to negotiate a working compromise with each other.

There is no reason to believe that the divisions between Palestinians and Israeli are any deeper or more intractable than either or both of the above examples. It is clear that a total military victory by either side is impossible. It is also clear that the two sides cannot be separated along the lines necessary to achieve a Two State Solution. So the question is not whether a One State Solution is possible or not but how long will it take for both sides to come to the conclusion that they have no alternative but to find ways of co-existing peacefully or as you put it, to play nice.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 4:58:29 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Catholics and Protestants not ring a bell ? Odd how the same people, when asked about wrong doing by Christians say it isnt the religion, its the people. Yet when they talk about Muslims the say its the religion.


How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 7:46:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Religious ideologies are in conflict in many places in the world. The Zionist founders were secular, many even atheists, and of course political socialists. Religious differences are only a handy strawman, IMO.


I don't care if you think it's a strawman argument or not. Sure, there are religious ideologies in conflict all over, but, in the ME, it sure seems like it's cause for war, doesn't it? Sunni vs. Shia ring a bell (and, FFS, those are just different sects of the same, general, religion!)?


Spotlighting the alleged religious differences obfuscates the fact that the current troubles began with the breakup of the Ottoman empire and the subsequent drawing of artificial boundaries and assignment of land to the Zionist immigrants. Prior to the Zionist land grab Jews were far more valued and welcomed in Muslim countries than in the Christian nations of the 19th and 20th C. The religious trope is propaganda.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/9/2015 7:56:03 AM >

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 7:50:25 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Catholics and Protestants not ring a bell ? Odd how the same people, when asked about wrong doing by Christians say it isnt the religion, its the people. Yet when they talk about Muslims the say its the religion.


How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable

How do the uncountable atrocities of Islamists make the Christian persecution of Jews through two millennia so forgettable? It shouldn't.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 7:54:09 AM   
vincentML


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There is no reason to believe that the divisions between Palestinians and Israeli are any deeper or more intractable than either or both of the above examples. It is clear that a total military victory by either side is impossible. It is also clear that the two sides cannot be separated along the lines necessary to achieve a Two State Solution. So the question is not whether a One State Solution is possible or not but how long will it take for both sides to come to the conclusion that they have no alternative but to find ways of co-existing peacefully or as you put it, to play nice.

Which raises the issue of when will the process of reconciliation begin and how will the Israelis summon the courage to apologize for the oppression and atrocities they committed, just as the Afrikaners did?

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 10:19:10 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable


Sanity this is a common theme among the defenders of the bastardized form on a great religion such as Islam.

Over and over we hear about the faults Christianity ... which I don't deny... as a means of ...what?... I have no idea... they can't be defending the murder of innocents can they... but they sure do like to use it.

It is as if they think what is in the news is not worthy of our disdain just because another atrocity was committed by Christians, or those that claimed to be, in the past... Pitiful.

Butch

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 12:28:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable


Sanity this is a common theme among the defenders of the bastardized form on a great religion such as Islam.

Over and over we hear about the faults Christianity ... which I don't deny... as a means of ...what?... I have no idea... they can't be defending the murder of innocents can they... but they sure do like to use it.

It is as if they think what is in the news is not worthy of our disdain just because another atrocity was committed by Christians, or those that claimed to be, in the past... Pitiful.

Butch

Butch, it is not Jews or Christians being murdered in Gaza and the WB. Religion is a red herring dragged across the path of land theft and the ghettoization of Palestinians. Smelling up today's truth with the dead fish of history.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/9/2015 12:29:44 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 2:02:53 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Vincent the post you linked was just to say one evil does not change another... nothing to do with Jews and Christians on the west bank.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 4:15:37 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Catholics and Protestants not ring a bell ? Odd how the same people, when asked about wrong doing by Christians say it isnt the religion, its the people. Yet when they talk about Muslims the say its the religion.


How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable


Try quoting me on something I actually said, or are you just trying to make this all about you again,

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 5:08:30 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		~FR~

Currently reading: GOLIATH: life & loathing in Greater Israel by Max Blumenthal.

Horrific portrait of the emerging fascism of the Israeli state. Copyright 2013.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 7:27:58 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Catholics and Protestants not ring a bell ? Odd how the same people, when asked about wrong doing by Christians say it isnt the religion, its the people. Yet when they talk about Muslims the say its the religion.


How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable

1) Not what he said

2) Though all of time? There's only been Islam since the 7th century.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/9/2015 10:49:56 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There is no reason to believe that the divisions between Palestinians and Israeli are any deeper or more intractable than either or both of the above examples. It is clear that a total military victory by either side is impossible. It is also clear that the two sides cannot be separated along the lines necessary to achieve a Two State Solution. So the question is not whether a One State Solution is possible or not but how long will it take for both sides to come to the conclusion that they have no alternative but to find ways of co-existing peacefully or as you put it, to play nice.

Which raises the issue of when will the process of reconciliation begin and how will the Israelis summon the courage to apologize for the oppression and atrocities they committed, just as the Afrikaners did?

I for one won't be holding my breath. The historical record suggests that Israel won't make any concessions until it has its back to the wall.

It will take years of external pressure in the form of boycotts, increasing diplomatic and economic isolation, allied with actions at a government level designed to force the Israelis to enter into meaningful negotiations. It is encouraging to note that the European Union is showing increasing signs that its patience with Netanyahoo's intransigence is coming to an end and is beginning to impose trade and diplomatic pressure on Israel. These forces along with internal resistance from Mandela's ANC were enough to topple South African apartheid and ought to be enough to repeat the feat with Israeli apartheid.

One step that could expedite things would be for the Palestinian Authority to disband itself, and force Israel to take full responsibility for the Occupied Territories, which would impose a significant security and economic burden on the Israeli Govt. The Palestinian position would then be: Either give us our State or give us full and equal civil rights - demands that the Israeli Govt would find increasingly difficult to oppose. How could the US Govt oppose the granting of civil rights to Palestinians? - aren't the principles of civil and human rights and democracy at the core of US foreign policy rhetoric?

The prospect of having to deal with Palestinians as equal partners would horrify Israelis who harbour an intense racist antipathy towards Palestinians. On its own the demand for full civil and human rights could be enough to force the Israelis to the negotiating table.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/10/2015 7:45:01 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

How does Northern Ireland make the uncountable atrocities of Islamists through all of time acceptable


Sanity this is a common theme among the defenders of the bastardized form on a great religion such as Islam.

Over and over we hear about the faults Christianity ... which I don't deny... as a means of ...what?... I have no idea... they can't be defending the murder of innocents can they... but they sure do like to use it.

It is as if they think what is in the news is not worthy of our disdain just because another atrocity was committed by Christians, or those that claimed to be, in the past... Pitiful.

Butch


I don't think I would interpret it that way, Butch.

Fact is, both sides can point their finger at the other and claim "Murderers!" That's actually quite easy, as there's more than enough sin to go around and tar every side in every conflict. What seems more difficult is to step back, take a deep breath, and try to look at the situation rationally.

It's easy to give in to bloodlust and a desire for revenge; that's what the terrorists are doing. But that doesn't mean that we have to do that. It also doesn't mean that just because someone isn't seething with bloodlust or revenge that they're defending the other side. I don't think that raging against the terrorists (or not doing so) proves anything about whose side someone is on.

I think it's more a matter of not wanting to reduce ourselves to their level. If there is an enemy out there, then it might be more practical to examine the enemy on a more dispassionate level in order to find out what makes them tick and what leads them to commit these horrible atrocities. It's also important to examine how we got involved in it. It's not so much about bleeding heart liberals who want to blame America first (or to bash Christianity for that matter), but whether or not we're taking the wisest course of action for our own security in what is clearly a dangerous world.

I agree that we need to protect ourselves from these atrocities, but disdain for them, in and of itself, won't really do that.

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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/10/2015 8:22:02 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Fact is, both sides can point their finger at the other and claim "Murderers!" That's actually quite easy, as there's more than enough sin to go around and tar every side in every conflict. What seems more difficult is to step back, take a deep breath, and try to look at the situation rationally.


Zonie I have been preaching this very sentiment over and over and it is like running head first into a concrete wall... most here demand that you and I pick sides... I refuse to do this and it gets me labeled by both sides.

Of course I am far from without fault...I anger easily and from time to time lash out... But I can say I never lash out at an individual unless I am retaliating. I state an opinion, radical at times i know, and if It attracts attacks I defend myself.

But I am one of those people that the anger leaves quickly and I become more rational and forgiving as far as that goes because i understand and recognize the same anger in others.

But I do believe that it is disingenuous to bring up unrelated past atrocities to discredit a position on an atrocity of today. Now if one atrocity directly led to another of course it is germane to the conversation... but that is often not the case.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/10/2015 8:34:45 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/10/2015 8:43:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		No body is justifying anything.

They ARE, however, calling bullshit on the ridiculous "all terror is Islamic or at least most terror and the world trembles in fear and for good reason because they are two steps from taking over the world a week from Tuesday so it's time to spread hate and celebrate revenge."

No body is saying "so we have to understand and coddle the terrorists either," which is the next place the morons go.

It's like Chicken Little for grown-ups.


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RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/10/2015 8:55:41 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But I do believe that it is disingenuous to bring up unrelated past atrocities to discredit a position on an atrocity of today. Now if one atrocity directly led to another of course it is germane to the conversation... but that is often not the case.

Butch


I agree, although it's possible that others may not see past atrocities as being unrelated. While it's hard for me to fathom at times, there are some people in this world who carry on blood feuds for centuries. They might think in terms like "Your grandfather killed my grandfather, so now I'm going to kill you." Such a primitive attitude doesn't really make any sense to me, although to bring up past atrocities might put some perspective on the situation, not so much to discredit anyone's position but to add greater clarity to a very muddled situation.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/10/2015 10:20:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But I do believe that it is disingenuous to bring up unrelated past atrocities to discredit a position on an atrocity of today. Now if one atrocity directly led to another of course it is germane to the conversation... but that is often not the case.

Butch


I agree, although it's possible that others may not see past atrocities as being unrelated. While it's hard for me to fathom at times, there are some people in this world who carry on blood feuds for centuries. They might think in terms like "Your grandfather killed my grandfather, so now I'm going to kill you." Such a primitive attitude doesn't really make any sense to me, although to bring up past atrocities might put some perspective on the situation, not so much to discredit anyone's position but to add greater clarity to a very muddled situation.

I agree, although it's possible that others may not see past atrocities as being unrelated. While it's hard for me to fathom at times, there are some people in this world who carry on blood feuds for centuries. They might think in terms like "Your grandfather killed my grandfather, so now I'm going to kill you." Such a primitive attitude doesn't really make any sense to me, although to bring up past atrocities might put some perspective on the situation, not so much to discredit anyone's position but to add greater clarity to a very muddled situation.



This universalist, historical point of view, this war of civilizations, ignores the primary motivations provided by contemporary politics and players on the ground. The atrocious suffering and rending of hundreds of thousands of fellow human beings becomes an academic exercise in historical analysis which does nothing to stop the carnage.


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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Israel to punish Palestine for joining the ICC - 1/10/2015 10:35:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I for one won't be holding my breath. The historical record suggests that Israel won't make any concessions until it has its back to the wall.

Worst than that the right wing coalition lead by Bibi is sworn to deliberately overcome the demographic advantage of Arab birth statistics by building out Greater Israel and driving off the Arabs from the expanding borders.

quote:

One step that could expedite things would be for the Palestinian Authority to disband itself, and force Israel to take full responsibility for the Occupied Territories, which would impose a significant security and economic burden on the Israeli Govt. The Palestinian position would then be: Either give us our State or give us full and equal civil rights - demands that the Israeli Govt would find increasingly difficult to oppose. How could the US Govt oppose the granting of civil rights to Palestinians? - aren't the principles of civil and human rights and democracy at the core of US foreign policy rhetoric?

The Likud is meeting this challenge by immigrating ever greater numbers of nonAskenashi "Jews' from the former soviets and aligning with the political forces of these new citizens. See: GOLIATH sited above.

Human rights are at the core of American foreign policy rhetoric only when it suits the wishes of American Military Industrialists and their web of revolving door political sycophants.

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