RE: 12 dead in Paris

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MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 8:49:35 AM)
The news I'm watching now says all the hostages got out of the deli apart from the two hostages that were killed by the terrorists early on.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 8:50:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 The BBC have said that the 2 terrorists in Demmartin came out shooting and have been killed. The hostage in the print works is apparently fine and well. In Vincennes, there were 5 explosions, 2 people have been killed and some hostages escaped. As I type this, I am hearing that someone has reported via phone that more than 5 were killed there. Waiting for the story to unfold..... Initial reports are often faulty, but thanks for the update.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 8:55:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 The BBC have said that the 2 terrorists in Demmartin came out shooting and have been killed. The hostage in the print works is apparently fine and well. In Vincennes, there were 5 explosions, 2 people have been killed and some hostages escaped. As I type this, I am hearing that someone has reported via phone that more than 5 were killed there. Waiting for the story to unfold..... Initial reports are often faulty, but thanks for the update. This is info being broadcast live at the scene and confirmed by local news media and AFP. 2 ambulances have taken people away; no news as to who they were, but apparently the gunman is definitely dead. And... the gunman is the very same one that killed the French policewoman yesterday. Update: 2 police officers have been injured in the assault on the kosher supermarket. It is believed (but unconfirmed) that possibly 4 of the hostages were also killed.

LiveSpark -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 9:15:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 The BBC have said that the 2 terrorists in Demmartin came out shooting and have been killed. The hostage in the print works is apparently fine and well. In Vincennes, there were 5 explosions, 2 people have been killed and some hostages escaped. As I type this, I am hearing that someone has reported via phone that more than 5 were killed there. Waiting for the story to unfold..... Initial reports are often faulty, but thanks for the update. This is info being broadcast live at the scene and confirmed by local news media and AFP. 2 ambulances have taken people away; no news as to who they were, but apparently the gunman is definitely dead. And... the gunman is the very same one that killed the French policewoman yesterday. Update: 2 police officers have been injured in the assault on the kosher supermarket. It is believed (but unconfirmed) that possibly 4 of the hostages were also killed. Thanks for the update fd.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 9:25:56 AM)
Reuters are now reporting that at least 4 of the hostages were killed with the gunman in Vincennes. No other new news as yet. I think they are waiting for a statement by the Minister of the Interior as nothing more seems to be forthcoming from the police or military at the scene. Kudos to the French for acting so swiftly; shame some innocents died with the gunmen. My understanding is, the hostages were shot by the gunman inside the deli and not caused by the assault on the building by the police. I guess we'll get the full story later.

sheisreeds -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 9:26:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: sheisreeds quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub igor I believe you and I agree here somewhat that if a radical Christian group based in the US were throwing acid in little girls faces or shooting them in the head....and or....invading a school and murdering helpless little boys and girls... and or...setting bombs in subways killing hundreds...and or...cutting off the heads of journalists....and or... placing bombs on airplanes.... and or... sending suicide bombers into family restaurants...and or... setting off road side bombs... and or...blowing up buildings with thousands of people....There would be a tremendous uproar of not only Christian leaders but Christians themselves. This radical group would receive no aid or indifference from fellow Christians and within days would be pointed out and destroyed or captured. This is not happening in the Muslim world in my opinion... We are always talking of the tiny minority of Muslims that are radical... but what is also reality is there is but a tiny minority of Muslims willing to aggressively speak out and take action against the radicals among them. Butch Where was the outrage of Christians in the mid nineties when Westboro Baptist was openly advocating violence towards the GLBT? As a queer activist in the nineties I regular got hate mail from right wing Christians saying things along the lines that they prayed that I got raped. What made it even more obscene was that I was 15 at the time, and that was an easy to know fact. I was still on Westboro's list of website and queer advocates to attack. You realize you're equating getting hate E-mail with actual terrorist acts, right? While I realize that getting threatening messages at 15 must have been uncomfortable, it's really not quite the same as getting acid thrown in your face. Advocating violence isn't doing violence. 9/11 wouldn't have been the same if the terrorists had just been advocating flying planes into buildings and sending out nasty messages about it. In my case it was thankfully just e-mail, they eventually found my city, but thankfully never my name or address. And no matter what it was still illegal and promoting violence. In fact in my case many of them contained direct threats, along with various phishing tactics to try and get my name and/or address. Beyond westboro, Falwell eventually admitted that his statements and actions regarding LBGT issues could be seen as a justification of violence. Similar groups directed at abortion, doctors actually died. Clinics have been bombed. The US government counts this as terrorism. My personal experience is not equal to what happened in France. However, it is still vile, and points to how religion is used to cross the line, and in the case of anti-abortion christian radicals, the death toll and groups responsible are more clearly known. And along with that admission Falwell condemned that violence. After years of violence and public opinion slowly turning on him.

BamaD -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 10:18:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Reuters are now reporting that at least 4 of the hostages were killed with the gunman in Vincennes. No other new news as yet. I think they are waiting for a statement by the Minister of the Interior as nothing more seems to be forthcoming from the police or military at the scene. Kudos to the French for acting so swiftly; shame some innocents died with the gunmen. My understanding is, the hostages were shot by the gunman inside the deli and not caused by the assault on the building by the police. I guess we'll get the full story later. There is a report, consistent with earlier reports that there was a 2nd terrorist at the deli and that they are still at large.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 10:46:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Reuters are now reporting that at least 4 of the hostages were killed with the gunman in Vincennes. No other new news as yet. I think they are waiting for a statement by the Minister of the Interior as nothing more seems to be forthcoming from the police or military at the scene. Kudos to the French for acting so swiftly; shame some innocents died with the gunmen. My understanding is, the hostages were shot by the gunman inside the deli and not caused by the assault on the building by the police. I guess we'll get the full story later. There is a report, consistent with earlier reports that there was a 2nd terrorist at the deli and that they are still at large. What I heard was that the "terrorist" at large is in fact the girlfriend of the gunman.... not an actual terrorist per se.

Sanity -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 10:50:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 things relevant to the larger conversation. from 1950 to 2010, European muslim population grew from 2% to 6%. many of the Nordic countries experienced growth from less than .1% to 3% or more. the rate of European growth of islam is greater than the worldwide growth. here is a very detailed look at it: http://www.ijesd.org/papers/29-D438.pdf if you think this doesn't matter---among a whole host of arguments against it, at least consider this: 80% of London Muslims (1.03 mil) Support the Islamic State https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/80-of-london-muslims-support-isis/ and this: 69% of French Muslims (4.14 million) back the Islamic State, poll finds https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/69-of-french-muslims-4-14-million-back-the-islamic-state-poll-finds/ and if the overall numbers seem small, recall that places in Europe (France, Germany, Sweden to name a few) have multiple pockets of concentrated muslims where western law enforcement fears to tread, or in some cases, will not go. ive said this elsewhere and it bears repeating here. its ironic that so many liberals support islam given that so many muslims would kill the liberals for their beliefs and lifestyles. the freedoms that liberals enjoy in the west, that is, a pluralistic and secular-friendly society, are not a part of the fabric of islam. the only things you have in common, are your hatreds for Christianity (and jews), western civilization, and more or less---freedom. So what if the overwhelming number of Muslims support ISIS Theyre still all "moderates" Right?

kdsub -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 11:00:32 AM)
quote: Why would you even make light of this? Or even think it's OK to do so? I have been accused of making light as well but there is a reason and a point. I believe that there is a basic difference of opinion that transcends political affiliations. This difference rises up in every thread of this kind. One side ... me included... think that there is a basic problem in the teaching of Islam that seems to give rise to radicalism in a significant portion of the religions followers. The opposing side seems to believe Islam is a by nature peaceful religion and people like me should not try to hold the religion as a whole at fault. In a previous thread where a follower of Islam murdered two people some with the opposing view were saying it was not the radical element of Islam that was at fault but only that the murderer was insane. I asked through satire, not very well I see, if these killers were also insane and not an all too common murderous theme based on the religion of Islam. It has been many years since the murders of Israeli athletes that many could say was the start of Islamic terrorism. How many incidents of maiming and killing of innocents does it take before someone can say... It is not insane people killing randomly but a religion killing? I believe that the vast majority of Muslim are just like me... they want peace and a fair shake in life... they are not killers or do they support those that are... BUT...I believe they are not doing enough to rid their religion of this radical element. Many are supporting these organizations economically and spiritually even if they take no part in the killings... this to me is unacceptable. So after thousands of posts and back and forth accusations we often end up with satire... In the end it is better than dredging up old arguments that have been posted innumerable times in the past. I hope you do not judge this post in whether one side is right or another... It is just my attempt to explain to you the why of the posts. Butch

MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 11:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So what if the overwhelming number of Muslims support ISIS Theyre still all "moderates" Right? I think ISIS would disagree. Moderate Muslims are just as bigger enemy to ISIS as none Muslims ISIS call moderate Muslims "hypocrites" and according to a Hadith, "Whenever hypocrites are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.” What you also have to remember is, a lot of Muslims aren't Sunni and the majority of Sunni are peaceful people but beside them there are Shi`ite, Ahmadiyyas, Baha’is, Sufis, Alawis, Druze and Alevis Muslims.

Sanity -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 11:18:48 AM)
Well written, Butch You have far more patience than I

Musicmystery -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 11:26:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So what if the overwhelming number of Muslims support ISIS Theyre still all "moderates" Right? I think ISIS would disagree. Moderate Muslims are just as bigger enemy to ISIS as none Muslims ISIS call moderate Muslims "hypocrites" and according to a Hadith, "Whenever hypocrites are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.” What you also have to remember is, a lot of Muslims aren't Sunni and the majority of Sunni are peaceful people but beside them there are Shi`ite, Ahmadiyyas, Baha’is, Sufis, Alawis, Druze and Alevis Muslims. There is no moderate in Sanity's world. There's right and left, there's Islam and us. That's it. No middle, anywhere.

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 11:48:21 AM)
True,it's an absolute in his head.

MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 11:50:14 AM)
I agree, this is a really good post. I'm going to try and answer it from my experience of living in Iran and within the Muslim world. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I have been accused of making light as well but there is a reason and a point. I believe that there is a basic difference of opinion that transcends political affiliations. This difference rises up in every thread of this kind. One side ... me included... think that there is a basic problem in the teaching of Islam that seems to give rise to radicalism in a significant portion of the religions followers. The opposing side seems to believe Islam is a by nature peaceful religion and people like me should not try to hold the religion as a whole at fault. The majority of Muslims and I say majority because it really is, take what they need from their book and use it to fit in with their modern lifestyle. Its not different to Christianity, in that most Christians take what fits from their book and fit it into their lifestyle. It may be just a prayer before a meal or going to church on Christmas eve. There is little difference. quote: In a previous thread where a follower of Islam murdered two people some with the opposing view were saying it was not the radical element of Islam that was at fault but only that the murderer was insane. I asked through satire, not very well I see, if these killers were also insane and not an all too common murderous theme based on the religion of Islam. It was very much the radical form of Islam; though there are many clerics who are devout Muslims who would never dream of harming anyone. quote: It has been many years since the murders of Israeli athletes that many could say was the start of Islamic terrorism. How many incidents of maiming and killing of innocents does it take before someone can say... It is not insane people killing randomly but a religion killing? I believe that the vast majority of Muslim are just like me... they want peace and a fair shake in life... they are not killers or do they support those that are... BUT...I believe they are not doing enough to rid their religion of this radical element. Many are supporting these organizations economically and spiritually even if they take no part in the killings... this to me is unacceptable. This is where it gets tricky. If you look at the the Quran and the Hadith in its Arabic form, its clear to see that it was written nearly 1 and a half thousand years ago. Whilst the law of Islam fitted to suit the times at the time, it doesn't fit modern times but the words of Allah and Muhammad can't be changed or tampered with. All Muslims know that people like ISIS are following the Koran and the Hadiths to the letter and trying to imply Islamic law in its purest and oldest form and so although they can and do condemn these terrorists for not moving forward into the modern world of Islam, they can't actually condemn what it says in the book. So even though Muslim clerics are standing up and condemning these atrocities, what they won't do is condemn the very book that tells these terrorists to do what they do and there lies the problem. quote: I hope you do not judge this post in whether one side is right or another... It is just my attempt to explain to you the why of the posts. Butch Not at all.

DaddySatyr -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 12:10:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB I agree, this is a really good post. I'm going to try and answer it from my experience of living in Iran and within the Muslim world. The majority of Muslims and I say majority because it really is, take what they need from their book and use it to fit in with their modern lifestyle. Its not different to Christianity, in that most Christians take what fits from their book and fit it into their lifestyle. It may be just a prayer before a meal or going to church on Christmas eve. There is little difference. And yet, on this forum, when there's a post about Christians, praying, outside an abortion clinic, the moaning and wails begin about how evil Christians are and how they need to be "stopped", etc. So Muslim extremists seem to enjoy a bit more forgiveness for beheadings and shit than Christians do, when they say a prayer before what some of them consider to be an atrocity. quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB It was very much the radical form of Islam; though there are many clerics who are devout Muslims who would never dream of harming anyone. When was the last time a Christian cleric went on a murderous rampage, screaming: "Leviticus 18:22!!!"? quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB This is where it gets tricky. If you look at the the Quran and the Hadith in its Arabic form, its clear to see that it was written nearly 1 and a half thousand years ago. Whilst the law of Islam fitted to suit the times at the time, it doesn't fit modern times but the words of Allah and Muhammad can't be changed or tampered with. All Muslims know that people like ISIS are following the Koran and the Hadiths to the letter and trying to imply Islamic law in its purest and oldest form and so although they can and do condemn these terrorists for not moving forward into the modern world of Islam, they can't actually condemn what it says in the book. But we, as Christians, are forever told that the words of God (as we see him) and *our* prophets *should* be changed? quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB So even though Muslim clerics are standing up and condemning these atrocities, what they won't do is condemn the very book that tells these terrorists to do what they do and there lies the problem. Much the same as what Christian Clerics do, as they're being lambasted by the "tolerant" people who talk out of the other side of their mouths, when it comes to Islam. It's almost like the Islam apologists have been "scared" to such a degree that they dare not speak out against Islam, either. Michael

ElChupa -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 12:16:25 PM)
In search of the muslim moderates! A muslim EXTREMIST is one who will cut of your head! A muslim moderate one who will let the muslim extremist cut off your head. To say these are muslim extremists is to say hitler was an extreme nazi or stalin was an extreme communist. The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim The Beltway Snipers were Muslims The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim The underwear Bomber was a Muslim The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims The Bafi Nightclub Bombers were Muslims The London Subway Bombers were Muslims The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Musiims The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims' Religion of Peace. Think about it, muchachos!

MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 12:18:35 PM)
DaddySatyr, Yep, I don't disagree except to say, I think their fear isn't from fear and retribution from terrorists but fear of condemning the book. I think a lot of moderate Muslims will also say that the book has been hugely misinterpreted too.

Musicmystery -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 12:21:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB I agree, this is a really good post. I'm going to try and answer it from my experience of living in Iran and within the Muslim world. The majority of Muslims and I say majority because it really is, take what they need from their book and use it to fit in with their modern lifestyle. Its not different to Christianity, in that most Christians take what fits from their book and fit it into their lifestyle. It may be just a prayer before a meal or going to church on Christmas eve. There is little difference. And yet, on this forum, when there's a post about Christians, praying, outside an abortion clinic, the moaning and wails begin about how evil Christians are and how they need to be "stopped", etc. So Muslim extremists seem to enjoy a bit more forgiveness for beheadings and shit than Christians do, when they say a prayer before what some of them consider to be an atrocity. Holy shit, Michael -- talk about cherry picking! How about choosing bombing abortion clinics or murdering abortion doctors? Seems that's a fairer comparison, if that's where you want to go.

MariaB -> RE: 12 dead in Paris (1/9/2015 12:22:34 PM)
ElChupa, keep in mind that more moderate Muslims have been beheaded by ISIS than any other faith.

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