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capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 11:48:39 AM   
mnottertail


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http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/01/sen-chuck-grassley-to-hospitals-quit-suing-poor-patients-or-start-your-paying-taxes/


Just one of many shortcomings of the capitalistic system.

This is why we need intervention.

There is no free market on the face of the earth, never was, and never will be.

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 12:06:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/01/sen-chuck-grassley-to-hospitals-quit-suing-poor-patients-or-start-your-paying-taxes/


Just one of many shortcomings of the capitalistic system.

This is why we need intervention.

There is no free market on the face of the earth, never was, and never will be.


Capitalism is inherently a voraciously exploitive beast. It is what it is. The strong prey on the weak. Either by intention or by structural necessity. The situation described in the article is unconscionable. The tax system and regulators are too easily manipulated, or the law makers who write the rules are. Is there any solution to abuses in the healthcare field other than a single payer system for low/middle income patients and for catastrophically ill patients? If so, I would like to know what it is. I doubt Obamacare as it is currently constituted offers a solution.

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 12:15:58 PM   
Musicmystery


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I'm not going to pretend it doesn't play out that way all too often.

But most smart business people don't think that way -- they look to solve problems, and hence, have loyal, paying customers. Being predatory would just shut down repeat business and referrals.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/28/2015 12:16:33 PM >

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 3:04:32 PM   
DesideriScuri


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FR,

The Hospital in this article, as Sen. Grassley posits, certainly doesn't look like it's meeting the requirements for tax exempt status. Does Grassley have the authority to demand the hospital answer to him on this? His letter demands answers to questions asked sent to him and his staff. Shouldn't those things go to the IRS? Isn't it the IRS's responsibility to determine qualification of tax exempt status?

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 5:00:54 PM   
MrRodgers


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"Greed and competition are not the result of immutable human temperament. Greed and fear of scarcity are in fact being created and amplified, the direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive." Bernard Lietaer founder of the EU currency system.

Capitalism's offspring is plutocracy. Not so much buying of elections as it is...buying of laws. Hence:

After Lincolns's creation of a debt free dollar called the green back, an internal bank memo from European bankers to their American affiliates stated that:

"Slavery is but the ownership of labor which carries with it, the care of the slave while the European plan...is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. This can be done by controlling the money. It will not do to allow the greenback as we cannot control that." The Hazard Circular 1862

What we've seen since Reagan is the mobilization of wealthy and upper middle-class citizens in an effort to cut their taxes and contributions to the state.

You see, that too has been a steady American tradition. There have been many campaigns to reduce taxes and most prevalently for the rich. Of course those that pay for these groups (lobbyists) and contribute to certain politicians with and for certain tax policies, is not about greed and keeping almost all of their wealth. (no really)

How to convince the public of that is another requirement but often isn't easy. What is necessary is what's called 'strategic policy crafting.' Some just call for what it really is...propaganda. Nevertheless, this all helped to bring more contributing members into the charge. It's easy when they see how easily the message and politicians can be bought.

For the 1% it soon becomes easy to recruit the top 40% for this campaign because of course to raise their taxes could be the forerunner of an attack on all professional wealth. So out the top 40%, many of remaining 39% join in on the chorus.

Instead, these groups claim to protect freedom, promote growth, safeguard the Constitution or fend off in of an ever-more-intrusive government. This is all part of “strategic policy crafting,” and it brings more allies to the fight.

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 5:36:22 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

FR,

The Hospital in this article, as Sen. Grassley posits, certainly doesn't look like it's meeting the requirements for tax exempt status. Does Grassley have the authority to demand the hospital answer to him on this? His letter demands answers to questions asked sent to him and his staff. Shouldn't those things go to the IRS? Isn't it the IRS's responsibility to determine qualification of tax exempt status?



Do you doubt that a Senator could make a formal request of the IRS to investigate this at any time it moves him to do so?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/28/2015 8:18:18 PM   
cloudboy


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Thank you for giving me a reason to read posts here. BTW: great post on the Islamic Artist who withdrew her picture from a French gallery.

Anyway, your OP made me think of this:

To Collect Debts, Nursing Homes Are Seizing Control Over Patients

"nursing home lawyers argue that using guardianship to secure payment for care is better than suing an incapacitated resident who cannot respond."

"a guardianship petition filed by the nursing home, Mary Manning Walsh, asking the court to give a stranger full legal power over Mrs. Palermo, now 90, and complete control of her money."

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/29/2015 2:46:53 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm not going to pretend it doesn't play out that way all too often.

But most smart business people don't think that way -- they look to solve problems, and hence, have loyal, paying customers. Being predatory would just shut down repeat business and referrals.

really? it seems to work really well for those payday loan corps.. and lots of various other types of businesses.. some are even praised and given awards, etc.. take Wells Fargo (Buffett's pride & joy), look at the awards, etc they are so proud of.. then do a search for wells fargo predatory mortgages.. My gawd, according to Fortune, its the World’s 35th Most Admired Company...

https://www.wellsfargo.com/about/csr/awards/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-28/wells-fargo-can-t-shake-l-a-lawsuit-over-predatory-loans
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-28/wells-fargo-accused-of-predatory-lending-in-chicago-area
http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2014/12/02/wells-fargo-faces-predatory-lending-charges
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/beth-jacobson-wells-fargo_n_1593201.html

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/29/2015 3:10:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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When you're done ranting, read the first sentence you quoted.

Now, if you're so convinced, try running a business that way. See how it works out for you.

There are 18 million businesses in the US. You've named . . . one.
http://dmdatabases.com/databases/business-mailing-lists/how-many-businesses

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/29/2015 4:03:00 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

When you're done ranting, read the first sentence you quoted.

Now, if you're so convinced, try running a business that way. See how it works out for you.

There are 18 million businesses in the US. You've named . . . one.
http://dmdatabases.com/databases/business-mailing-lists/how-many-businesses


I wasn't ranting.. You said a business that was predatory wouldn't have customers, I showed you a couple of industries (payday loans, banks, mortgage) that make very good money and have plenty of customers.. there are lots of others too.. Comcast, is another.. Verizon, AT&T (back when they could charge horrendous fees for long distance).. actually, many large corps are predatory, especially those that are near monopolies or where is little real competition.. Small business has a much harder time to pull that off but there are a few of those too.. here is a local one http://blogs.houstonpress.com/news/2014/11/scott_wizig_real_estate.php

Imo, for most small business people, its not that being predatory would cause customers to leave, it is that I think most small business people aren't so morally bankrupt to go there so they don't engage in those practices.. and no, I would not run a business that way cuz I have to look in the mirror and couldn't if I treated people/customers that way..

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/29/2015 4:05:24 PM   
Musicmystery


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AND I prefaced it with the sentence you chose to ignore.

18 million businesses don't do business that way -- because they are better people, because it would bite them in the ass. When you're looking for a doctor, a mechanic, a spa, a whatever -- you ask around. It matters.


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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/29/2015 4:52:32 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

AND I prefaced it with the sentence you chose to ignore.

18 million businesses don't do business that way -- because they are better people, because it would bite them in the ass. When you're looking for a doctor, a mechanic, a spa, a whatever -- you ask around. It matters.

I am not ignoring the sentence you refer to, your sentence contradicts the rest of your statement.. there is a lot of corruption in the US & its capitalistic system..

Being a better person is not the same as not doing something cuz it would bite them in the ass.. There is a huge difference between someone that wouldn't think of stealing cuz of his/her morals and someone that doesn't steal cuz he doesn't want to go to jail (but would steal if he knew he could get away with it! basically, with this type of person its a risk-to-reward assessment, nothing to do with morals).. There are so many people here that if a few customers don't come their way its not a big deal.. and some industries really don't have a customer problem no matter how bad they are cuz people don't have a choice..

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/29/2015 7:14:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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18 million.

Try to wrap your head around that.

18 million.

That allows for "a lot" without it being the typical business.


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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 1:44:54 AM   
joether


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To bad to most Americans that the following is true: Greed Trumps Good.

Hence why I like Mass Health (in Massachusetts) and later, the Affordable Care Act. That the poor and homeless are handled as little more than criminals and refugees, is simply infuriating! Slightly off topic, but is similar. While walking through super markets around me, with food piled higher than I can reach; and yet this nation has hungry adults and children.....

The worst of the worst? There is a good section of the nation that is completely against helping out their fellow American, whom is worst off than they are. And they vote Republican/Tea Party....

I've met many conservatives at the local level whom really care how the worst and unfortunate of us are treated in America. And yet, vote for the very people that try to reduce the services, and abilities to help these very people out of very tough spots in their life. Just doesn't make sense....


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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 6:10:48 AM   
bounty44


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a pertinent quote from ayn rand: “The moral justification of capitalism does not lie in the altruist claim that it represents the best way to achieve ‘the common good.’ It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence. The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man’s rational nature, that it protects man’s survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice.”

and some other thoughts concerning capitalism:

1.Happiness

If you look at this happiness map published by scholars from the University of Leicester, you can clearly see that the foremost democratic, capitalist countries like the USA, Canada, New Zealand and the whole of Europe are the happiest in the world. This is because in these countries, thanks to the free-market, whatever products people want, they can get. Where do all these thousands of products come from? Well, the less happy countries like the Asian Tiger economies tend to be the main exporters of consumer goods. In conclusion, all these unhappy countries need to do is start consuming more than they produce, like Europe, and the wealth and happiness will start flowing in.


2. Viable Alternatives

Perhaps the strongest argument working in favor of democratic capitalism is that there is no alternative politico-economic system which has proved itself to work in our modern age. Almost every attempted implementation of communism has failed (for example, look at China – they abandoned total communism long ago and are slowly creeping towards capitalism) and any central government risks large amounts of corruption. What’s more is that if, for example, America became socialist and imposed many strong measures on corporations to regulate their behavior, the largest companies (Trans-National Corporations) would most likely move their industry elsewhere, and potential entrepreneurs would be scared to invest in capital, irreparably damaging America’s economy. So as you can see, changing the economic system isn’t even an option.


3. Growth

Capitalism allows the economy to grow exponentially. It is a basic fact of economics that the more money a firm makes, the more it can invest in production, and the more it invests in production, the more money it makes. So long as no unfortunate events befall the firm, this growth can, obviously, continue indefinitely. Many see a problem arising with this: there are only a finite, or ‘scarce’ amount of resources on Earth, so this huge growth of production will one day run to a halt.

However, as argued by Julian Simon, the rarer a resource, the greater its monetary value, which leads to innovation. For example as oil begins to run out we are seeing significant increase in prices, which has increased the reward and made it economically viable to search for new oil fields. Sites which were previously too expensive to profitably drill have now become available; and we are also developing new methods of harnessing alternative energy such as wind, solar and nuclear power. The oil scarcity isn’t particularly our problem, anyway, since by the time it is depleted, our generation will be long gone.


you can read the rest here if you want: http://listverse.com/2010/12/24/top-10-greatest-benefits-of-capitalism/

in short, most of the blessings/comforts/lifestyles we enjoy today have been the result of capitalism.


to the extent that capitalism might/does not "work", the blame can often be laid at the feet of the government, who interferes in what would be the natural order of things. the housing bubble/crash from a handful of years ago is a great example of that. the essence was that government intrusion more or less caused, or even forced banks to give loans for houses to people that could not afford them. in a market with less, or no government intrusion, those people would not have gotten loans, and the crash would not have occurred.

government intrusion into the higher education system causes prices to go up without a commensurate rise in the quality, and in many cases, a watering down of it.

one of you mentioned the "affordable care act"---that's a great example. most peoples premiums are going way up, their access to care is lessened, and they are not seeing better care---why? government intrusion into the market.

I agree the state has to involve itself in a variety of ways---the recognition and enforcement of contracts for instance---but they have far overstepped their bounds....and this is all not to mention the crony capitalism that occurs when politicians are in bed with industry. you might think that's a pock mark against capitalism--I rather see it again as a problem with government getting involved where it shouldn't.


one last thing---find a better system then.



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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 6:23:00 AM   
Lucylastic


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How is Ayn Rand still a thing
a polite rebuttal.
LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8m8cQI4DgM

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 6:35:15 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


government intrusion into the higher education system causes prices to go up without a commensurate rise in the quality, and in many cases, a watering down of it.

one of you mentioned the "affordable care act"---that's a great example. most peoples premiums are going way up, their access to care is lessened, and they are not seeing better care---why? government intrusion into the market.



Shit you made up. * yawn *

Every country in the world today is a Mixed Economy. Every one. Some lean more capitalist, some more socialist, but they are all mixed economies, and that's because neither system works perfectly, and need balance.

Unfettered markets don't address market externalities--like pollution, for example. A free market would allow it, since it doesn't cost the polluter anything to pollute. So...society steps in with regulation.

Free markets can't account for the huge economies to scale horizon needed for some essential service businesses, so we recognize the need for a "natural monopoly" in utilities instead of multiple companies, and that means we also have to regulate them.

The real world is more complex than your simplistic sound bytes.






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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 9:31:52 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

18 million.

Try to wrap your head around that.

18 million.

That allows for "a lot" without it being the typical business.

there are about 12 million illegal immigrants in the US.. do you seriously think any of them are actually paid by those 18 million businesses what the law (FLSA, etc) requires? (Try to wrap your head around that. 12 million workers being ripped off, abused, etc)

There are also plenty of (legal) Americans that aren't paid legally either.. Mariah Carey is being sued by her (former) nanny for not paying overtime for the 100 hour weeks she worked for her.. this country is founded on using & profiting from people that are desperate, homeless and weaker/poorer and not much has changed since slavery was abolished (you fought a war over that didn't you? too bad that's where it ended).. and it doesn't matter to them if products from Forever 21, Aeropostale, Toys ‘R’ Us, Urban Outfitters, Victorias Secret, HP, Nokia, Hersheys, Marlboro, Benson & Hedges, FIFA, Freeport, etc, etc were made by slave & child labour in some other country either.. they just want to pay as little as possible so no lack of customers for those companies.. The companies think they can get away with it and they do..

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 9:36:51 AM   
Musicmystery


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That's right...when you've got nothing, try to change the topic to something tangental.

Have a walk down your town's main street. Take a look at some of these 18 million. Where is this slave labor they're using?

You're desperately trying to make the abuses of some, granted, all too common, equal the norm, and it simply isn't.

Many, many, many hard working business folk serving the public. In fact, most of them. Open your eyes.

Maybe your heart too.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/30/2015 9:38:31 AM >

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RE: capitalism in America is deeply flawed - 1/30/2015 10:54:29 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's right...when you've got nothing, try to change the topic to something tangental.

Have a walk down your town's main street. Take a look at some of these 18 million. Where is this slave labor they're using?

You're desperately trying to make the abuses of some, granted, all too common, equal the norm, and it simply isn't.

Many, many, many hard working business folk serving the public. In fact, most of them. Open your eyes.

Maybe your heart too.

I am not changing the subject, the subject is about how American capitalism sucks.. it sucks in various ways, try opening your eyes.. I have seen more than I care to about moralless and heartless "American capitalism" (from corps, politicians, and citizens) in the short amount of time I have been here.. and its not getting any better, nor will it cuz this is the culture and accepted..

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