Does Love Require Sacrifice?

Does Love Require Sacrifice? (Full Version)

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NookieNotes -> Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 2:48:20 AM)
I thought this was a fascinating enough topic to make it's own thread. Borrowed from: Poly Relationships: "Most of the poly relationships I know fail." quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 I can't think of a single type of love that doesn't involve sacrifice or the willingness to sacrifice. The very idea of love to me is a willingness to do for someone else even at a detriment to myself. If that means that a father works a back breaking job to provide for his family giving up the well being of his body to ensure his family is taken care of. A parent who gives up a career they enjoy for their children and/or spouse. A friend taking time off work that they can ill afford to drive over and help a friend in need. A sub giving up control over everything to please their dom/domme. A dominant reigning in some of their wilder urges to look after the well being of their sub. A complete stranger stopping in the pouring rain to help someone with a flat tire. Each is an act of love between different types of people, each is a sacrifice of some kind. Without a sacrifice, love is just a paper title but with sacrifice love is the rod and crown. I disagree. Vehemently. While sacrifice (as you define it) may accompany love, it is NOT a part of the definition of love. And I don't believe it ever should be. As you are just going to muddy the waters on what love is and isn't. Do you still love after your love has died? Or moved? Or spurned you? What if you no longer have the opportunity to sacrifice? And your example of: quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 A sub giving up control over everything to please their dom/domme. A dominant reigning in some of their wilder urges to look after the well being of their sub. In my view, if you look at these as sacrifices, I feel bad for you, especially as you are in this lifestyle. To me, these are great joys. And if my subs are not THRILLED to offer that control to me, so that they can focus on other aspects of their lives, if they believe they are sacrificing that control to me, then I don't want it. And vice-versa. If I'm not driven to joyously take control of the well-being of my submissive, then I realize it is not a good fit with that person. That does NOT mean I love them less. It means it's not a good fit. I still love my ex-husband. I wish him the best and grieve over who and what he became in the clutches of addiction. I do not and will not ever sacrifice anything for him again. I love my best friend. I don't sacrifice for him. I may choose to see him OVER other options, but that is a choice made from my heart, and I don't view it as a sacrifice. Giving him money is not a sacrifice. Being a shoulder to cry on instead of getting sleep is not a sacrifice. They are choices, happily made. I think it's a big mistake to tie too many emotions and actions into love. That gives love so much to be and do, that it has no chance of standing on it's own. Love is love. quote: love ləv/ noun noun: love; plural noun: loves 1. an intense feeling of deep affection. 2. a person or thing that one loves. Why would you want to make it more than that? Isn't a feeling of deep affection enough for you? Does it HAVE to come with sacrifice to be worthwhile? That seems to add negative connotations to something that is otherwise an incredibly positive thing.

needlesandpins -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 4:40:49 AM)
well for a start; love is a lie. it's just oxytocin that floods the body to make you believe that you feel a certain way for someone. it's enables you to over look their flaws, and forgive their bad behaviour. It's what makes mothers bond to their ovspring in all species...and take on species that normally they wouldn't. we like to think that we humans are so different, but we're not that far removed. however, having said that, it doesn't stop me wanting it from someone, or to give it either. as for the original question; be it sacrifice, or compromise I think there has to be some to make a relationship work. I'm not sure it has to happen for love to occur, but I do know that when it's all one sided, and the other person is not appreciative of what the other has given up, and compromised on, then it does chip away at the love in the end. I gave up everything I wanted to be to have the relationship I had with my ex, and asked nothing of him. he gave up nothing for me...ever. I made him my priority, but I was never his...ever. in the end he still wouldn't give up something that should have been very easy for me, and it destroyed everything I'd ever felt for him. my ex playmate said several times that he thought I was compromising myself by staying in what we had. the thing was that for me I knew that I had compromised myself so much more by being in my relationship with my ex. I had never wanted to be married, and it's not something I have ever dreamed of like my friends have done. what I have always wanted is a man to love me, to want only me, and to be loyal to me. what I don't want is the full on relationship that I had with my ex. I gave my ex everything, absolutely everything that I could, and compromised myself for him beyond my limits to give him what he wanted, but it was never enough for him. I'm not sure that a man exists that is capable of giving me what I want. it's seems like I'm asking for far too much sacrifice on their part because no matter how much I give of myself, it's never enough for them. needles

GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 7:13:35 AM)
Nookie, forgive my question here, but what kind of love are we describing? Romantic love? And then is it possible to not particularly love someone who loves you but having a deep, abiding affection for them and for the love to be unrequited? I often wonder what satiates the human soul in this regard. My best friend and I say "I love you" to each other all the time. It is more a gratitude of having each other than a "on the helm of Titanic" sort of thing. I never understood romantic love until 2013. It was a very strange experience. I understood the illogic attached to it finally. Before that I never was able to rationalize why people attached themselves to each other so vehemently. I'll be honest, both of my best friends probably love me more than their wives. Is that selfish? I do not know. But all I require from them at times is to just listen or grant advice. I cannot get that elsewhere currently and I trust them more than most. They will tell me the hard truth/ what I need to hear and they respect me greatly. Had things been different, they not be womanizers then, perhaps I would have married either one. I care for them more than most people. But my love for them still comes from a place of logic, it isn't one of those passionate type of things where you can't keep your hands off each other. I would say I have sacrificed more out of a sense of duty, honor, personal beliefs and such than love.

satanscharmer -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 7:31:19 AM)
Love is love. Sacrifice is sacrifice. I wouldn't say it is a requirement of love, but something done for someone we love because we want to remain in that state. Something sometimes required to make a relationship work. Choosing to submit to someone could be a sacrifice. Not because it is something someone doesn't want to do or because they feel the need to, but because they value that submission more than their independence, for example. quote: sac·ri·fice ˈsakrəˌfīs/ noun noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices an act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy. "we must all be prepared to make sacrifices" synonyms: surrender, giving up, abandonment, renunciation, forfeiture, relinquishment, resignation, abdication "joining a federation may result in the sacrifice of sovereignty" I didn't stop valuing my independence because I fell in love with someone. I chose what was more important. That was a sacrifice, to me. Since I highly value my independence and chose to give that to someone, that sacrifice, I believe, speaks volumes. I could say that because I fell in love, submission was natural and there was no choice involved. That would be a lie and, in my mind, would be highly romanticized. I'm not really a romantic person. Everything I do is by choice.

usememistress775 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 8:15:09 AM)
The problem in this conversation again lies with the limitations of this terrible language. So I blame the British for all confusion about this topic. On a more cogent and serious note: just because you do not see them as sacrifices doesn't mean they are not. You also missed the second part that I mentioned "willingness to sacrifice." For example: if a terrible accident happened to your best friend, heaven forfend, I have no doubt you would drop everything and do whatever you could for them. You would sit up nights with them, not counting any part of it as a sacrifice. If a stranger or acquaintance had the same problem, you might go out of your way to check up on them but not if it cost you very much to do so. It is more than a chemical reaction in your brain. You can choose to love someone, but once you do you can never stop loving them completely. Satanscharmer hit the nail on the head: The sacrifice is not because you don't want to do something but instead a way to show the breadth and depth of your feelings. If I am only willing to sacrifice something that means little to me then my love means little. If I cannot give up anything at all then my love is all for show. Sex in and of itself has not a single thing to do with love, but a long long long long time ago someone decided the best way to prove their love was by not having sex with anyone but the one they love. Then they perpetuated the idea, saying that it was the only way to prove your love. Taught this to their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren until it was the dominant idea on the planet. They forged a connection between the heart and penis/vaginas that makes everyone uncomfortable. I'm not saying sex should be casual, but sex and love are not in the same category. I can love someone with no interest in sex, but American culture only makes exception for the closest of friends and family. I love the men from my squad in the marines, no sexual interest and not really friends with them but I would have died for any of them and will still drop everything if they needed me, but only because I have no greater ties to myself. No one depending on me so dropping everything at a moment's notice doesn't inconvenience anyone I care about. Hope that clears up my earlier post, if not blame the British. It's their shoddy language after all.

Bhruic -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 8:30:25 AM)
I think there is a great danger in over romanticizing the drama of love. In the end, it will never live up to the fantasy. I agree too that sacrifice doesn't sound like the right word, or a productive or desirable thing. Two lives enjoined will always require some compromise, but that's a different animal.

NookieNotes -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 8:33:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko Nookie, forgive my question here, but what kind of love are we describing? Romantic love? The postulization was not mine. I personally don't feel love requires sacrifice, although sacrifice is sometimes offered in the name of love. But yes, let's go with romantic, since it was originally discussed in a poly thread. quote: I would say I have sacrificed more out of a sense of duty, honor, personal beliefs and such than love. Yes, me, too. quote: ORIGINAL: satanscharmer Love is love. Sacrifice is sacrifice. I wouldn't say it is a requirement of love, but something done for someone we love because we want to remain in that state. Something sometimes required to make a relationship work. I agree. quote: I didn't stop valuing my independence because I fell in love with someone. I chose what was more important. That was a sacrifice, to me. Since I highly value my independence and chose to give that to someone, that sacrifice, I believe, speaks volumes. I could say that because I fell in love, submission was natural and there was no choice involved. That would be a lie and, in my mind, would be highly romanticized. I'm not really a romantic person. Everything I do is by choice. I follow. I think if you remove the idea of "giving up" something as a negative, then this works for me as well. I think of it as my subs value their independence, until they realize that they value the relief of not being in charge, and letting me be in charge MORE. They do not give up their independence for love, but because they have found something that they value more. And love is not enough. We all love people, and very few I would guess do we submit to... or whatever. quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 The problem in this conversation again lies with the limitations of this terrible language. So I blame the British for all confusion about this topic. I get your point, and the points made by satanscharmer. What about this question, I asked: Do you still love after your love has died? Or moved? Or spurned you? What if you no longer have the opportunity to sacrifice? If you no longer sacrifice, does that mean you no longer love? Does love die the minute you are unwilling to sacrifice? smiles

Bhruic -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 8:44:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes What about this question, I asked: Do you still love after your love has died? Or moved? Or spurned you? What if you no longer have the opportunity to sacrifice? If you no longer sacrifice, does that mean you no longer love? Does love die the minute you are unwilling to sacrifice? smiles As someone aptly pointed out, words often fail on such subjects, but... When someone you truly love dies, you make the greatest sacrifice of all... to go on, and brave the rest of your life without them.

GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 8:49:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 The problem in this conversation again lies with the limitations of this terrible language. So I blame the British for all confusion about this topic. On a more cogent and serious note: just because you do not see them as sacrifices doesn't mean they are not. You also missed the second part that I mentioned "willingness to sacrifice." For example: if a terrible accident happened to your best friend, heaven forfend, I have no doubt you would drop everything and do whatever you could for them. You would sit up nights with them, not counting any part of it as a sacrifice. If a stranger or acquaintance had the same problem, you might go out of your way to check up on them but not if it cost you very much to do so. It is more than a chemical reaction in your brain. You can choose to love someone, but once you do you can never stop loving them completely. Satanscharmer hit the nail on the head: The sacrifice is not because you don't want to do something but instead a way to show the breadth and depth of your feelings. If I am only willing to sacrifice something that means little to me then my love means little. If I cannot give up anything at all then my love is all for show. Sex in and of itself has not a single thing to do with love, but a long long long long time ago someone decided the best way to prove their love was by not having sex with anyone but the one they love. Then they perpetuated the idea, saying that it was the only way to prove your love. Taught this to their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren until it was the dominant idea on the planet. They forged a connection between the heart and penis/vaginas that makes everyone uncomfortable. I'm not saying sex should be casual, but sex and love are not in the same category. I can love someone with no interest in sex, but American culture only makes exception for the closest of friends and family. I love the men from my squad in the marines, no sexual interest and not really friends with them but I would have died for any of them and will still drop everything if they needed me, but only because I have no greater ties to myself. No one depending on me so dropping everything at a moment's notice doesn't inconvenience anyone I care about. Hope that clears up my earlier post, if not blame the British. It's their shoddy language after all. I understand what you are saying, but everything stated seems more like out of a sense of duty vs sacrifice. I agree the language is tricky, as I truly believe there is no such thing as altruism in its purest form. Even selfless giving is selfish in a way because it gives us a "good feeling". There is always a tradeoff. There is a socialite in CA who gave away all her designer shoes and clothes to start an orphanage in Mexico. Sacrifice for her might differ from your own perception of it. Aung San Suu Kyi stayed under house arrest for 20 years because she refused to acknowledge the illegitimate Junta government in Burma. She did not see her family for almost that entire time. Her definition of sacrifice, again might differ from your own. I feel people do sacrifice more often for more profound reasons than a romanticized idea of "love". I feel it is very self centered to believe the little good we do for others can compare to the depth and breadth of what "true sacrifice" requires.

usememistress775 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 9:30:52 AM)
I didn't say that you couldn't sacrifice without love, but I can say that I have no doubt that Sung San Suu Kyi act of sacrifice, seems to me, to be out of love for her country. She sacrificed her freedom in protest of an illegal government. ROMANTIC LOVE IS BUT A SMALL PART OF THE LOVE I AM TALKING OF. I THOUGHT I MADE THIS CLEAR. THERE IS A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HEART AND GENITALIA. When someone you love dies, the live is still there. That dull ache that comes upon you when you are not expecting it. The pain you feel at no longer being able to interact with that person is a small sacrifice in and of itself. I put this challenge to you Nookie, think of anything you love in any capacity be it person, pet, planet, country or inanimate object. Think of that entity and tell me if you are unwilling to sacrifice anything at all in order to (spend time with, improve the life of, enjoy the company of, make happy etc). I would like to know if you find anything you love that you can't see making even a small sacrifice for.

needlesandpins -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 9:33:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 . You can choose to love someone, but once you do you can never stop loving them completely. That is not correct at all. It took my ex cheating on me to ruin what we had, and it took a single itemised phone bill to make everything I'd ever felt for him disappear. I had loved him as much as I possibly could, was in love with him, call it what you will, but in an instant it was gone. there was never going to be any going back from that moment. I loved my ex playmate as my friend, and had feeling for him after six years because he was my lover. it took one phone call to smash that in to nothing at all. once I'm done, I'm done completely, and in an instant. There are only two people I will continue to love completely until my dying breath. one is my son, and the other is a man who can't screw it up because unfortunately he's already dead. needles

GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 9:38:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 I didn't say that you couldn't sacrifice without love, but I can say that I have no doubt that Sung San Suu Kyi act of sacrifice, seems to me, to be out of love for her country. She sacrificed her freedom in protest of an illegal government. ROMANTIC LOVE IS BUT A SMALL PART OF THE LOVE I AM TALKING OF. I THOUGHT I MADE THIS CLEAR. THERE IS A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HEART AND GENITALIA. When someone you love dies, the live is still there. That dull ache that comes upon you when you are not expecting it. The pain you feel at no longer being able to interact with that person is a small sacrifice in and of itself. I put this challenge to you Nookie, think of anything you love in any capacity be it person, pet, planet, country or inanimate object. Think of that entity and tell me if you are unwilling to sacrifice anything at all in order to (spend time with, improve the life of, enjoy the company of, make happy etc). I would like to know if you find anything you love that you can't see making even a small sacrifice for. I disagree. I believe she did what she believed was necessary. We take these decisions in our day to day lives. It is an immature thought to believe her sacrifice was out of love rather than a sense of duty and a knowledge that a stand had to be taken. She loves her family, without question but in her mind, she was sacrificing for a greater purpose. You are trying to make our small gestures into grandiose and selfless acts when they aren't. Not in comparison. It is simply a fact. Also this will give you food for thought as to what "true submission" requires. Also your contribution is somewhat strange about the genitalia. I fell in love once. I let that love go. We all have choices in life that are greater than personal desires. You are trying to change someone's desires and decisions and who they are by grand standing your solitary beliefs and bombarding them with your own selfish perception of what love should be. Naught more.

Gauge -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 9:50:24 AM)
This is a fast reply. Since the dawn of mankind, words have never been adequate enough to describe love or what it truly means. While I have the utmost respect for those involved in these forums, I seriously doubt that any of us will fare any better.

sexyred1 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 9:55:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: needlesandpins quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 . You can choose to love someone, but once you do you can never stop loving them completely. That is not correct at all. It took my ex cheating on me to ruin what we had, and it took a single itemised phone bill to make everything I'd ever felt for him disappear. I had loved him as much as I possibly could, was in love with him, call it what you will, but in an instant it was gone. there was never going to be any going back from that moment. I loved my ex playmate as my friend, and had feeling for him after six years because he was my lover. it took one phone call to smash that in to nothing at all. once I'm done, I'm done completely, and in an instant. There are only two people I will continue to love completely until my dying breath. one is my son, and the other is a man who can't screw it up because unfortunately he's already dead. needles I agree. You may never stop loving the memory of what you had, but you can and should stop loving someone who hurt you beyond forgiveness. I loved my ex so totally, that I did sacrifice my time, my interests and other things to accommodate him, even though he did not sacrifice back. He never met me even halfway. Obviously I felt I was getting something out of it to justify it, until enough time went by that I got fed up. I believe love requires empathy, flexibility, and compromise, otherwise someone will start harboring resentment, anger and feel undervalued. I always say that love is like a garden, if not tended to, it withers and dies. It is not a static concept or fantasy. It requires maintenance and if only one person is doing that, someone is not getting their needs met, in a healthy relationship.

usememistress775 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 10:02:33 AM)
Is duty not a facet of love? Is it not the love for the people who make up the country even if you do not love the governing body of that country? I spent four years in the marines, but have always harbored a deep loathing of the American Party system of politics. I went in out of wanting to make the country safer for those I love. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind because apparently I am not having the same discussion as everyone else. You read my posts yet never get their meaning. As for making small gestures into grandiose acts, there are no small gestures. Every act taken changes the world in a small way. Every thing you spend time on is something that can never be given back. Every second ticked away is gone forever. Every time you choose to do one thing, you lose the opportunity to do countless others. As long as we look at selfless gestures others make as being small things we negate the fact that they could have literally done anything else in the world with that time.

GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 10:18:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 Is duty not a facet of love? Is it not the love for the people who make up the country even if you do not love the governing body of that country? I spent four years in the marines, but have always harbored a deep loathing of the American Party system of politics. I went in out of wanting to make the country safer for those I love. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind because apparently I am not having the same discussion as everyone else. You read my posts yet never get their meaning. As for making small gestures into grandiose acts, there are no small gestures. Every act taken changes the world in a small way. Every thing you spend time on is something that can never be given back. Every second ticked away is gone forever. Every time you choose to do one thing, you lose the opportunity to do countless others. As long as we look at selfless gestures others make as being small things we negate the fact that they could have literally done anything else in the world with that time. The point everyone is making is there can be love without sacrifice and sacrifice absent love. All these things are interchangeable. A pet owner might understand this. You might love your goldfish and care for it etc but there is no sacrifice on the goldfish's part. Only your own. The goldfish is only granting you with its presence and naught more. Some people require a more tactile affection from a pet so they get a dog vs a goldfish. I am not sure why you think love and sacrifice go hand in hand. It really depends on the dynamic but there is no right or wrong way to love at the end of the day. Only what is right or wrong for you.

usememistress775 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 10:24:54 AM)
Don't know if a goldfish is capable of love, but you are capable of loving a goldfish hence the time spent feeding and caring for it. I have never asserted that love must be returned. I cannot think of a way to express love that doesn't involve sacrifice. And every else brings up one sided love to use as a counterexample yet all it does is highlight that the person who does love will sacrifice for that love and the one not willing to sacrifice does not love the other person. Reread just my posts and tell me I have made any other claim.

GoddessManko -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 10:34:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: usememistress775 Don't know if a goldfish is capable of love, but you are capable of loving a goldfish hence the time spent feeding and caring for it. I have never asserted that love must be returned. I cannot think of a way to express love that doesn't involve sacrifice. And every else brings up one sided love to use as a counterexample yet all it does is highlight that the person who does love will sacrifice for that love and the one not willing to sacrifice does not love the other person. Reread just my posts and tell me I have made any other claim. But now we are just talking in circles. I still have my ex in my system in traces, however I will never sacrifice for him nor try to be in his company in a romantic sense ever again. I can love him and not sacrifice. Same for my best friends. I can love and not sacrifice. Not everyone is programmed to love the same way. Nookie linked something about the 5 love languages. That, if nothing else is indicative of how love translates to different people. I would not be well matched with someone who is "needy" for physical touch if I'm not willing to give it. If love translates one way for you, that's fine. But it doesn't hold true for others. I also think it's silly to believe someone who gives more effort into something they're passionate about is on equal footing to someone who gives less. It's just an excuse to not put forth best efforts.

usememistress775 -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 10:45:35 AM)
If your best friend was in need but it would cost you to help, maybe make you miss work for a few days or give up other plans you had, would that stop you from helping? The thing is that doing so is a sacrifice, if you cannot sacrifice even something as simple as dinner plans is it truly love? On another board Nookie mentioned that it takes a lot of preparation for a dominant to set up a scene. Is the time spent on that preparation not a sacrifice for the benefit of both the dominant and the submissive? Again I need to point out that I said that love needed either sacrifice OR the willingness to sacrifice. Every reply keeps saying that they have not sacrificed for someone they love, but I'll bet every dollar I will ever make that if push comes to shove, each one of you will be there sacrificing your plans, time and sometimes money to help those you love.

DesFIP -> RE: Does Love Require Sacrifice? (1/29/2015 10:52:56 AM)
For umm, sex has nothing to do with love. That's not true for me. I didn't teach my children lies and falsehoods. I am not sex negative. What I am is demisexual. Without love, I do not find anyone sexually attractive. I do find them aesthetically attractive, like looking at a picture in a museum, but that's it. The fact that umm is not hard wired to be monogamous does not mean that no one else is. As far as sacrifice, if you aren't willing to forgo things for your children, and you view giving things up for them as a sacrifice, instead of a demonstration of your love, that tells me that you are a very selfish person. Same with anyone else you claim to love. Because doing something that betters someone you love should not be viewed as a sacrifice. It ought to be a happy giving to them. Do you view buying them a birthday present a sacrifice? Why not, after all you could have spent that money on yourself? I know people who view it as sacrifice, and universally I have never seen such a marriage succeed. Eventually they find themselves alone because of the fact that selfishness begets selfishness. If you make your partner or children feel that they are a burden to you, they will withdraw, and they will find being with you to be a burden to them.

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