quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The US has a history of breaking agreements it decides are inconvenient.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
From the first two lines of your link.
The group originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999, which was renamed Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn—commonly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI)—when the group pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda in 2004.
The original group was founded in 1999, as you cleverly point out. It morphed into AQI in 2004, as you not so cleverly missed out. When i was at school, 2003 always came before 2004, how did it work for you ?
The fact is, the original group was set up in Jordan by a Jordanian, again geography tells me Jordan is next to Iraq but isnt actually Iraq. It remains as said, there was no such thing as AQ in Iraq PRIOR to the 2003. Your being obtuse wont alter that fact one iota.
As for you trying to blame the Iraqis, you are happily using a one sided premis which abjectly fails to work. Blame the Shia Leadership, the one that was installed by the left wing BBC (Bush Bremer Cheney) < a joke for sanitys sake > { Mine not his }
In order to assist Mod3 in her trials and tribualtions, no one was called stupid in the making of this post.

Thank you for agreeing that the seeds of ISIS weren't sown by the actions of Bush, and it is noted that you are playing a name game.

Were the Shia Leadership not Iraqi's? And, I'm not disagreeing that the Bush Administration (which means not just Bush) has some blame for the mess that is Iraq right now. I'm not going to blame Blair, or hold Blair blameless. I'll leave that up to you (though it seems you want to blame Blair only for being a Bush lapdog).

Which group is "the original group?" Was it "Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad" or something else?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

It also stands to reason that if they weren't stopped they would grow, but that wouldn't make them the fault of the US .

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I love how some people can always find a way to blame the U.S. for some trouble making group's existence. That's like saying if the Union had just lost the war, there would have been no need for the KKK. So, are we to blame Lincoln for the existence of the KKK? Or the Reconstruction? Or are we to look at the true motives of the animals who founded the KKK and understand that the North and/or Lincoln and/or the Reconstructionists or even "them uppity blacks" were just someone handy to blame?

If the U.S. had just stayed home, then it's likely the Jordanian group would not have morphed into Al Qaeda? Proof of that?

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

You should know that making sense will get you nowhere with fanatics... It will only attract long drawn our rebuttals full of half truths with no basis in reality and history.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Or the present administration's recognition that war costs money, resources, and lives that the bulk of Americans are not crazy about sacrificing in a battle among Muslims in a Muslim country on top of the other military actions we're already paying for deeply since the last administration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Which group is "the original group?" Was it "Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad" or something else?

According to wiki:
"Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad (Arabic: جماعة التوحيد والجهاد‎, Organization of Monotheism and Jihad) was a militant Jihadist[1] group led by the Jordanian national Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. This group's name may be abbreviated as JTJ or shortened to Tawhid and Jihad, Tawhid wal-Jihad, Tawhid al-Jihad, Al Tawhid or Tawhid. The group started in Jordan, then became a decentralized network during the Iraq insurgency in which foreign fighters were widely thought to play a key role,[3] though some analysts said that it may have also had a considerable Iraqi membership. [...]
Al-Zarqawi started the network with the intention of overthrowing the 'apostate' Kingdom of Jordan,[1] which he considered to be un-Islamic according to the four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence. After toppling Jordan's monarchy, presumably he would turn to the rest of the Levant.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama%27at_al-Tawhid_wal-Jihad
Wiki notes that this group only became operational in Iraq after the US-led invasion: "Following the US-led invasion of Afghanistan, al-Zarqawi moved westward into Iraq" ( same source as above).
To sum it up, the group that eventually became Al Quada in Iraq started life in Jordan c1998-9. It's original purpose was to over throw the Jordanian monarchy. It started operations in Iraq after the US led invasion, where it went through several name changes and eventually became AQ in Iraq.
It seems quite reasonable and consistent with the evidence above to assert that Bush's action in initiating the invasion of Iraq was the key factor responsible for the movement of this group into Iraq. It naturally follows that without Bush's actions Al Quada in Iraq may never have existed.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Now you are using sanitys trick of putting words in my mouth. Is that really the best you can do ?

quote:

Just to make clear to you what I was actually saying, altough it is something a four year old would have understood, The origins of the group may have been in Jordan, but they WERE NOT IN IRAQ PRIOR to Bush and Blairs illegal war. The fact you are unable to see such a simple premis is your problem, not mine. The other fact that you cant even read your own link is unforgivable. If you had read it (Your link) You would know the groups original name.

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And yes, the Shia are Iraqis, but they were not the origin of the current civil war, just the result of failed US policies not that I think Blair had much input. I am even dubious Bush had much clout, most likely his "team" pulling the strings.

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I am unsure if you just love acting like a moron or aare just really thick, since you just blather on denying any facts ever given to you, about anything, in thread after thread.

quote:

Finally, your suggestion I dislike Blair because he seen as Bush`s lapdog is fucking laughable, given the previous posts I have made on the man.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Politesub Al Qaeda of course already existed... I like the analogy that was made and think it makes a lot of sense. Of all people you should know I am NOT absolving Bush for the Iraqi disaster. But I will not blame the US for the creation of Al Qaeda...I will blame them for financing and arming them however.

These people hated us before US troops and aircraft bases were allowed on Saudi soil. With or without our involvement in the Middle eastern wars they would be a terrorist organization that would be disrupting peace.

I am also not saying our actions have not in the past directly inspired retaliation against us...but I am saying even without our involvement they would exist in one form or another with just fewer targets.

It is bullshit in my view to say all that has transpired is our fault and without our interference there would be no war in the area and no terrorists organizations.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Now you are using sanitys trick of putting words in my mouth. Is that really the best you can do ?

I do no such thing (even though you do just that, but more on that later...). I don't have to make any shit up when it comes to you saying stupid shit.

quote:

Just to make clear to you what I was actually saying, altough it is something a four year old would have understood, The origins of the group may have been in Jordan, but they WERE NOT IN IRAQ PRIOR to Bush and Blairs illegal war. The fact you are unable to see such a simple premis is your problem, not mine. The other fact that you cant even read your own link is unforgivable. If you had read it (Your link) You would know the groups original name.

Thank you for admitting you were wrong that the seeds of ISIS were sown by Bush.

quote:

And yes, the Shia are Iraqis, but they were not the origin of the current civil war, just the result of failed US policies not that I think Blair had much input. I am even dubious Bush had much clout, most likely his "team" pulling the strings.

Thank you for agreeing that the Iraqi's also shoulder at least some blame for the lack of an inclusive government.

quote:

I am unsure if you just love acting like a moron or aare just really thick, since you just blather on denying any facts ever given to you, about anything, in thread after thread.

You do realize, don't you, that everything we've been disagreeing on in this thread, you've just agreed with me on?

quote:

Finally, your suggestion I dislike Blair because he seen as Bush`s lapdog is fucking laughable, given the previous posts I have made on the man.

I made no suggestion as why you dislike Blair, let alone that you dislike Blair. My only claim was that you weren't really blaming Blair of the lack of inclusion in the Iraqi government because he was just Bush's lapdog.

For someone who acts like he understands how to comprehend English, you certainly show little ability.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Your post isnt exactly the same as the claims you made earlier.
Before you claim I dont understand English you need to stop making shit up. That way your posts might be easier to follow.

quote:

I clearly said there was no ISIS or AQI in Iraq prior to 2003. That isnt the same as saying the group didnt originate earlier. The one thing everyone can comprehend is that you are unable to grasp whats posted infront of you.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Your post isnt exactly the same as the claims you made earlier.
Before you claim I dont understand English you need to stop making shit up. That way your posts might be easier to follow.

I don't make shit up. I leave that up to you.

quote:

I clearly said there was no ISIS or AQI in Iraq prior to 2003. That isnt the same as saying the group didnt originate earlier. The one thing everyone can comprehend is that you are unable to grasp whats posted infront of you.

Didn't you say that the seeds of ISIS were sown by Bush?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


Yet this very post shows you why it is almost impossible to take the fight to them. They have no fixed base, in an area of the world with no real borders. They move fluidly between Syria and Iraq, just as the Taliban and AQ move fluidly between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

As for stopping them, well there was one thing GWB and Blair could have done (although I doubt Tony got much say) And that would have been to do what Bush Cheney et al claimed they would do. BUILD AN INCLUSIVE IRAQ. The day Bremer sacked the majority of Sunnis from any posts they held in the Government/Army, then the seeds of today were sown. AQ gained a stronghold among the Sunni, something they never had, despite georges claim, when saddam was in power. Infact back in 2010 American forces had killed most of the original leaders of ISIL, many of the new leaders come from the original Baathist officers who were under Saddam.

Does anyone doubt that if they had had better equality under Shia rule, we would be where we are today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


Yet this very post shows you why it is almost impossible to take the fight to them. They have no fixed base, in an area of the world with no real borders. They move fluidly between Syria and Iraq, just as the Taliban and AQ move fluidly between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

As for stopping them, well there was one thing GWB and Blair could have done (although I doubt Tony got much say) And that would have been to do what Bush Cheney et al claimed they would do. BUILD AN INCLUSIVE IRAQ. The day Bremer sacked the majority of Sunnis from any posts they held in the Government/Army, then the seeds of today were sown. AQ gained a stronghold among the Sunni, something they never had, despite georges claim, when saddam was in power. Infact back in 2010 American forces had killed most of the original leaders of ISIL, many of the new leaders come from the original Baathist officers who were under Saddam.

Does anyone doubt that if they had had better equality under Shia rule, we would be where we are today.

quote:

seeds of today were sown

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Your post isnt exactly the same as the claims you made earlier.
Before you claim I dont understand English you need to stop making shit up. That way your posts might be easier to follow.

I don't make shit up. I leave that up to you.

quote:

I clearly said there was no ISIS or AQI in Iraq prior to 2003. That isnt the same as saying the group didnt originate earlier. The one thing everyone can comprehend is that you are unable to grasp whats posted infront of you.

Didn't you say that the seeds of ISIS were sown by Bush?

Why is a thread about Isis excesses being used to trash the US?

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