quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

seeds of today were sown

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

Butch, saying it is all Bullshit to blame Bush and Blair is sticking your head in the sand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

seeds of today were sown

My error.

I apologize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Butch, saying it is all Bullshit to blame Bush and Blair is sticking your head in the sand.

I don't know where you get the idea I don't blame Bush, at least, for our involvement... I most certainly do. I also blame them directly for the 4,000 plus dead sons and daughters... But this does not change the validity of the analogy used. These terrorists groups would still be with us I believe even without our involvement... They may or may not not be targeting us but the reasons they use for their existence would not have changed.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Because it's the US's fault. Duh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There is no proof these problems would still be with us in Iraq, and much proof that they started after the 2003 invasion.

Lets be clear, you cant invade someone on a "may or may not basis" Its a false premis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


Yet this very post shows you why it is almost impossible to take the fight to them. They have no fixed base, in an area of the world with no real borders. They move fluidly between Syria and Iraq, just as the Taliban and AQ move fluidly between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

As for stopping them, well there was one thing GWB and Blair could have done (although I doubt Tony got much say) And that would have been to do what Bush Cheney et al claimed they would do. BUILD AN INCLUSIVE IRAQ. The day Bremer sacked the majority of Sunnis from any posts they held in the Government/Army, then the seeds of today were sown. AQ gained a stronghold among the Sunni, something they never had, despite georges claim, when saddam was in power. Infact back in 2010 American forces had killed most of the original leaders of ISIL, many of the new leaders come from the original Baathist officers who were under Saddam.

Does anyone doubt that if they had had better equality under Shia rule, we would be where we are today.

Whats up cutie, cant you fucking read.

Try reading the parts you bolded, one word at a time would help you. If you do this you will see it clearly says the following;

quote:

seeds of today were sown

Get back to me when you work out what that means and stop your snidey trolling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

yes you fuckwit I can read. And I know what the word that are bolded say, that's why I fucking bolded them you jack ass.

And as usual, although I didn't actually make a comment and just copied what you said, you are jumping in with your usual trollish remarks without having the slightest clue why I might have done so.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There is no proof these problems would still be with us in Iraq, and much proof that they started after the 2003 invasion.

Lets be clear, you cant invade someone on a "may or may not basis" Its a false premis.

As if Iraq was tea and crumpets before

There was the Iran / Iraq war, the Kuwait invasion, dogged Iraqi noncompliance with the Gulf War cease fire agreement, mass torture, genocide and terrorism of Iraqi civilians

Practically the whole world was behind regime change in Iraq. Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, Harry Reid and many other Democrats had been on the regime change bandwagon long before George W. Bush was ever elected president

Today all of these far left freaks boast about their perfect hindsight and want to single out a few Republicans to blame the entire mess on

Disinformation and propaganda 101

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yada yada fucking yada. You irksome little man

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

because I talk about the topic

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

Practically the whole world was behind regime change in Iraq. Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, Harry Reid and many other Democrats had been on the regime change bandwagon long before George W. Bush was ever elected president

Today all of these far left freaks boast about their perfect hindsight and want to single out a few Republicans to blame the entire mess on

Disinformation and propaganda 101

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Practically the whole world was behind regime change in Iraq. Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, Harry Reid and many other Democrats had been on the regime change bandwagon long before George W. Bush was ever elected president

Today all of these far left freaks boast about their perfect hindsight and want to single out a few Republicans to blame the entire mess on

Disinformation and propaganda 101

Well...no.

In fact, George H. Bush was quite clear that regime change would destabilize an already delicate balance among Shia, Sunni, and Kurds.

Only W. and his arrogant team of Rumsfeld, Wolfy and Cheney figured no, they could wage short war on the cheap and democracy would magically spread across the Arab world like dandelions in spring.

quote:







William J. Clinton
Statement on Signing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998
October 31, 1998

Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998." This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime in Baghdad now offers.

Let me be clear on what the U.S. objectives are:

The United States wants Iraq to rejoin the family of nations as a freedom-loving and lawabiding member. This is in our interest and that of our allies within the region.

The United States favors an Iraq that offers its people freedom at home. I categorically reject arguments that this is unattainable due to Iraq's history or its ethnic or sectarian makeup. Iraqis deserve and desire freedom like everyone else.

The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life.

My Administration has pursued, and will continue to pursue, these objectives through active application of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions. The evidence is overwhelming that such changes will not happen under the current Iraq leadership.

In the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a popularly supported government.

On October 21, 1998, I signed into law the Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, which made $8 million available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition. This assistance is intended to help the democratic opposition unify, work together more effectively, and articulate the aspirations of the Iraqi people for a pluralistic, participatory political system that will include all of Iraq's diverse ethnic and religious groups. As required by the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for FY 1998 (Public Law 105-174), the Department of State submitted a report to the Congress on plans to establish a program to support the democratic opposition. My Administration, as required by that statute, has also begun to implement a program to compile information regarding allegations of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes by Iraq's current leaders as a step towards bringing to justice those directly responsible for such acts.

The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional, discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to further the objectives I outlined above. There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of U.N. Security Council support efforts to eliminate Iraq's prohibited weapons and missile programs and economic sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives as well. Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.

WILLIAM J. CLINTON

The White House, October 31, 1998.

quote:

Stephanopoulos, May 3, 2003: On March 19 President Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?

Kerry: I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/kerry-spins-his-record-on-iraq/

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


That the spineless Democrats dared not challenge the invasion, no doubt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Practically the whole world was behind regime change in Iraq. Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, Harry Reid and many other Democrats had been on the regime change bandwagon long before George W. Bush was ever elected president

quote:




Disinformation and propaganda 101

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Practically the whole world was behind regime change in Iraq. Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, Harry Reid and many other Democrats had been on the regime change bandwagon long before George W. Bush was ever elected president

Today all of these far left freaks boast about their perfect hindsight and want to single out a few Republicans to blame the entire mess on

Disinformation and propaganda 101

Well...no.

In fact, George H. Bush was quite clear that regime change would destabilize an already delicate balance among Shia, Sunni, and Kurds.

Only W. and his arrogant team of Rumsfeld, Wolfy and Cheney figured no, they could wage short war on the cheap and democracy would magically spread across the Arab world like dandelions in spring.

Well, yes

The following is but one example of many that are out there of Democrat support for regime change in Iraq:

quote:







William J. Clinton
Statement on Signing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998
October 31, 1998

Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998." This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime in Baghdad now offers.

Let me be clear on what the U.S. objectives are:

The United States wants Iraq to rejoin the family of nations as a freedom-loving and lawabiding member. This is in our interest and that of our allies within the region.

The United States favors an Iraq that offers its people freedom at home. I categorically reject arguments that this is unattainable due to Iraq's history or its ethnic or sectarian makeup. Iraqis deserve and desire freedom like everyone else.

The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life.

My Administration has pursued, and will continue to pursue, these objectives through active application of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions. The evidence is overwhelming that such changes will not happen under the current Iraq leadership.

In the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a popularly supported government.

On October 21, 1998, I signed into law the Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, which made $8 million available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition. This assistance is intended to help the democratic opposition unify, work together more effectively, and articulate the aspirations of the Iraqi people for a pluralistic, participatory political system that will include all of Iraq's diverse ethnic and religious groups. As required by the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for FY 1998 (Public Law 105-174), the Department of State submitted a report to the Congress on plans to establish a program to support the democratic opposition. My Administration, as required by that statute, has also begun to implement a program to compile information regarding allegations of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes by Iraq's current leaders as a step towards bringing to justice those directly responsible for such acts.

The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional, discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to further the objectives I outlined above. There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of U.N. Security Council support efforts to eliminate Iraq's prohibited weapons and missile programs and economic sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives as well. Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.

WILLIAM J. CLINTON

The White House, October 31, 1998.

Such examples go on and on and on

GHW Bush authorized a conditional cease fire, not an end to the war. And just as Bill Clinton repeatedly said, that agreement was violated again and again and again, and the horrors of the Baathist regime was unacceptable in a civilized society