quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I posted this in General BDSM Discussion because of the author's comments about M/s, not his writings about Gor. His comments about real life M/s and his book Imaginative Sex interested me. He is outside the BDSM (and Gorean) community, does not live the lifestyle, but as a philosopher he conveys his image of consensual slavery. There is some interest on the forums about love, emotion and how they relate to kink, I think this adds another view point to examine.

I agree with Norman that BDSM is not Gorean. I disagree that he seems to imply BDSM isn't pretty. Saying slavery in Gor books are about BDSM is completely missing their philosophy. African slave traders used shackles, BDSM uses shackles, that doesn't mean BDSM and African slave traders have anything in common. Goreans got lumped in under the big kink umbrella of BDSM, but as I said in my book thread reply, ". . . If you want kink, get Imaginative Sex (same author). It is more about kink than The Chronicles of Gor is."
What do you think?

I think Norman's comments about how love and M/s can intertwine define some of my own values, though love is not required for M/s. I just like M/s so I do it with the one's I love. I am also a sadist and my slave is maso, very smart and she learns fast. Spanking a masochist for discipline doesn't seem the best course of action. I mean, she had an orgasm while getting her nipples pierced. I don't think spanking her is gonna' teach her a lesson. I love the ritual and symbolism of corporal punishment for discipline (not funishment) of my slave, but discipline doesn't have to equal corporal punishment nor is CP the best method for teaching intelligent human beings behavior modification.
What do you think?

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Q io9/Charlie Jane Anders: Have you spent any time among the Gorean communities on the internet, such as Second Life? What do you think of the popularity of real-life Gorean slavery among some people in the BDSM community?

A John Norman: . . . [edit] I know nothing about "real-life Gorean slavery among some people in the BDSM community." The "BDSM" reference worries me. I dissociate myself from BDSM, at least as I understand it. I may, of course, misunderstand it.

I wonder if one would settle merely for "real-life Gorean slavery," because, as I understand it, BDSM is not Gorean. If something is not beautiful, it is not Gorean. In any event, I am assuming that what is involved here, in any case, is consensual. If a woman chooses to submit herself, voluntarily, to a master, it seems to me that is her business, and his business. She would then, of course, be a slave, and would be treated as a slave. One supposes remarkable fulfillments may occur in such an arrangement.

It is, of course, important to treat the slave, however uncompromisingly strict you are with her, however much she might fear you, in a humane way, as one would any other animal. Some men, I gather, dislike women, and enjoy hurting them. That makes no sense to me. Women are wonderful, and precious. It is a delight to own one; why would one hurt her? What would be the point of that, mere sadistic pleasure? I think we might distinguish between, say, S/M sex, or sadomasochistic sex, and M/S sex, or Master/Slave Sex. In a sense they seem opposite. Love is important. It is not to be confused with cruelty. Gratuitous cruelty seems to me uncalled for, and ugly, morally and aesthetically. Too, it seems unworthy of a true master.

The point is loving and serving, and owning and mastering, not hurting. To be sure, the slave must understand that if she is not pleasing, she is subject to discipline. She is not to be left in doubt that she is a slave. It is easy to avoid discipline; she need only be obedient, submissive, and found pleasing, wholly, and in all ways. Sometimes a slave may desire to be reassured of her bondage. There are many ways in which the master, if he wishes, may see to this. I have written an entire book, the Imaginative Sex book, in which my views on such matters should be reasonably clear.

[Edit: broken into paragraphs . . . because you know, some people actually use paragraphs]

Referenced Interview: John Norman, the philosophy professor who created the barbaric world of Gor

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
John Norman was one of those weak men in the 60's who was terrified by the idea of what equality of opportunity might mean.

His first novel is so transparently about his fantasy alter-ego that it's laughable. The fact that they took off is a testament more to the fact there there's no shortage of men who are secretly terrified of women out there.

I mean look at his response "if something is not beautiful it is not Gorean". What a wanker.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As you've seen by replies so far, when you post in the BDSM community, by and large, and mention Gor, that's the only world anyone hears, ignoring all the other discussion points you've raised, and why.

Good luck.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I posted this in General BDSM Discussion because of the author's comments about M/s, not his writings about Gor............

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
......... No no no... Imaginative Sex is about relationships, the pulp that makes up the "Chronicles of Gor" is about misogynistic kink....
............ There are so so many other books that discuss the fabulous intricacies of the vast domain of "stuff that is kinky" ... De Sade or Anais Nin for starters, that just as I heartily recommend The Guru Granth Sahib to my theist chums, I can only hope that a thinking Gorean would look elsewhere too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

This is a really interesting thread as I have enjoyed a Gorean Master as stated before and he currently has 5 slaves in his keep and to be honest, he never once spoke to me as less than an equal and was more than happy to explain that much of his work he created, GORGEOUS COLLARS, he did not sell, he gave to people he enjoyed and taught me how to make my own remotely from his home in Greece.
I have two questions. First, since many fit themselves into the realm of kink despite it not being"BDSM" meaning multiamory, pansexuality, FLR and even some modern kinks in my mind do not necessarily fit under "BDSM" but rather "Kink", is it fair to say to better understand Gor, it could be a subset of kink? My second question is what is your take on hypnosis as it relates to kink since you don't like kink and behavior modification meshing under the same umbrella? (Unless I misunderstood you). Your thoughts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

RS, I think that if he were to write them, they would be an entirely different read, same premiss, but vastly different in the overall structure of it all.

We have to scrutinize the era that it was written and the hard lines he had to adhere to. I would anticipate that if they were written now, in this less "red" era, that the Kajirus would be as prolific as the Kijira, and we'd get some pretty serious looks into the Panther Women/girls and that look would be FemLedUberDomme's.

First and foremost, Norman wanted paid to do the job he loves to do, write. Gor was written with a restrained pen and that restraint is what causes so much infighting among the Goreans... that and idiots running amok... but for me, I love structure and protocol, I like to know where I stand, where the lines are, etc. and in a Gorean camp you don't have to guess if it is okay to talk to this one or that one, it is what it is and if you are in the know you are good to go.

Like you, I do not see Gor as BDSM, although it has a place in orbit of BDSM, it is not of it. I do not see me as a BDSM person, I'm all about the M/s and Primal with sprinkles of kink thrown in for flavor. It is easy to knee-jerk Gor into BDSM, for those that do not really understand it, or understand the distinctions of D/s M/s as a satellite of BDSM but not the core/nucleus of kink.

Jus sayin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Gorean lifestyles and BDSM... more like overlapping Venn diagrams. There are Goreans into the BDSM scene but not all GOReans etc. etc.

Shoot, you even see Goreans overlapping into the SCA scene. Yes, I'm thinking of the Tuchux encampment at the Pennsic War.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/TuchukCampfires/Guidelines.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsic_War