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So armed civillians would have stopped recent terror at... - 2/10/2015 4:44:04 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 4:51:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Will one dead is better than none...what do you think? It would be one more than was killed in the initial attack in France.... But Politesub you need to think about what would happen after the attack was reported... I can see all the real men with guns on the street...shooting at other real men with guns... hell who would know who was the terrorists and who was a yahoo.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 4:59:15 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Butch, my post was a clear rebuttal to those who made odious aspersions about "if Europeans had been armed"

The irony that a bunch of Texas pro gun enthusiasts tried to prove a point and dismally failed, has been a delight.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 5:03:37 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		If'n I'm gonna get shot at; I'm takin' summa y'all with me.

.... going for a Texas drawl. Yup, I can see that attitude in some places.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 5:26:04 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Will one dead is better than none...what do you think? It would be one more than was killed in the initial attack in France.... But Politesub you need to think about what would happen after the attack was reported... I can see all the real men with guns on the street...shooting at other real men with guns... hell who would know who was the terrorists and who was a yahoo.

Butch

Hint: They would all be yahoo's

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 5:38:56 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.

TTAG Charlie Hebdo Simulation: 7 Out of 9 Armed Defenders Got Hits on One Terrorist

If you define success as two dead terrorists, the scenario we devised – one armed defender with a semi-automatic pistol facing two terrorists armed with rifles in an office environment – it didn’t happen. If you define success as making the terrorists pay for their attack, it was a partial success in two out of nine simulations. In one case, the armed defender’s actions enabled a successful retreat for the defensive shooter and some of the intended victims.

What the simulation shows is that even a single defender can save lives.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/10/2015 5:41:58 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 5:51:01 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.

TTAG Charlie Hebdo Simulation: 7 Out of 9 Armed Defenders Got Hits on One Terrorist

If you define success as two dead terrorists, the scenario we devised – one armed defender with a semi-automatic pistol facing two terrorists armed with rifles in an office environment – it didn’t happen. If you define success as making the terrorists pay for their attack, it was a partial success in two out of nine simulations. In one case, the armed defender’s actions enabled a successful retreat for the defensive shooter and some of the intended victims.

What the simulation shows is that even a single defender can save lives.

K.

BUT...but...but... not ALL lives (including the terrorists) were saved. Pure failure.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 6:00:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

BUT...but...but... not ALL lives (including the terrorists) were saved. Pure failure.

I'll tell you what I think is a failure. Polite was just going by the CBS story. The "failure" here (failure being not the only word that comes to mind) is CBS's reporting.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/10/2015 6:06:56 PM >

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 6:47:40 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.

TTAG Charlie Hebdo Simulation: 7 Out of 9 Armed Defenders Got Hits on One Terrorist

If you define success as two dead terrorists, the scenario we devised – one armed defender with a semi-automatic pistol facing two terrorists armed with rifles in an office environment – it didn’t happen. If you define success as making the terrorists pay for their attack, it was a partial success in two out of nine simulations. In one case, the armed defender’s actions enabled a successful retreat for the defensive shooter and some of the intended victims.

What the simulation shows is that even a single defender can save lives.

K.



Success in this case to me means, a chance vs. no chance

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 6:57:08 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		<sneaks in from under his rock>

I did notice that CBS left out a significant chunk of the scenario description.

And I might add that little addendum that instructors tell grunts when training to clear buildings with multiple rooms, "You will be damn lucky if none of your team gets stepped on."

Hence the practice "Kick open door, lob two or more grenades, spray the room on rock and roll, enter room." Of course if there is the slightest chance that there might be civvies (aka noncombatants aka in the wrong fucking place at the worst fucking time,) yell at the top of your lungs and lob as many flash bangs as you can...

I will go one better, it shows a lack of planning on the terrorists part. It would have been easier to use pipe bombs to toss in the offices then go shoot survivors.

Hell go back to terrorism/urban guerrilla warfare 101, the VC method, ride by on a motorcycle and lob a satchel charge in the front door.

My plan: Two heavily armed bad guys, one good guy with an automatic pistol. Considering that situation, lock the office door and if on the ground floor go out a damn window.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 7:28:35 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Will one dead is better than none...what do you think? It would be one more than was killed in the initial attack in France.... But Politesub you need to think about what would happen after the attack was reported... I can see all the real men with guns on the street...shooting at other real men with guns... hell who would know who was the terrorists and who was a yahoo.
Butch

Hint: They would all be yahoo's


No google's or bing's?!?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 7:39:17 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.


except for that in some instances, gun owners actually do stop terrorist attacks. and in many instances, stop other murders from occurring. but you ignore those because they don't fit your narrative.

what's more---so the people in the simulation learned how challenging it was---and they will continue to learn until they get better at it.

last thing, apparently you call it a failure because in neither simulation did both terrorists die. I say, and I imagine most other conservative libertarian types here would say the same thing im about to say here, "so what?" better to die trying to save your life and others around you, than to die with a whimper. one is courageous, the other is cowardly.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 2/10/2015 7:40:18 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 8:28:00 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		The guy at the Walmart if you recall...would disagree. He's dead and it took several police to take out the perp(s).

The idea that an armed citizenry would stop most of this shit let alone any govt. is unmitigated bullshit.

The greatest chance for any armed citizen, is of being killed themselves...not stopping people out to kill.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/10/2015 8:35:43 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The guy at the Walmart if you recall...would disagree. He's dead and it took several police to take out the perp(s).

The idea that an armed citizenry would stop most of this shit let alone any govt. is unmitigated bullshit.

The greatest chance for any armed citizen, is of being killed themselves...not stopping people out to kill.

Unmitigated bullshit......supported by the facts.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/11/2015 12:35:08 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The guy at the Walmart if you recall...would disagree. He's dead and it took several police to take out the perp(s).

The idea that an armed citizenry would stop most of this shit let alone any govt. is unmitigated bullshit.

The greatest chance for any armed citizen, is of being killed themselves...not stopping people out to kill.

Unmitigated bullshit......supported by the facts.

Yep,what he said is supported by the facts.
Though it surprises me to see you admit this.
Why you refer to it as "unmitigated bullshit" though is beyond me.
Is that some local backwoods idiom thing or something

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/11/2015 12:38:35 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

last thing, apparently you call it a failure because in neither simulation did both terrorists die. I say, and I imagine most other conservative libertarian types here would say the same thing im about to say here, "so what?" better to die trying to save your life and others around you, than to die with a whimper. one is courageous, the other is cowardly.



QFT



Michael

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/11/2015 3:05:11 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		It seems to me that I have touched a few nerves. Most of you seem to need reminders as to what was said on previous threads.

As I said earlier, this just goes to show armed civillians wouldnt have been able to stop the attacks.

Any of you who still have issues best get to Texas and compare notes with the gun nuts there.

Finally, the only whimpering being done here seems to eminate from your side of the pond chaps. QFT indeed.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/11/2015 3:43:04 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.


except for that in some instances, gun owners actually do stop terrorist attacks. and in many instances, stop other murders from occurring. but you ignore those because they don't fit your narrative.

what's more---so the people in the simulation learned how challenging it was---and they will continue to learn until they get better at it.

last thing, apparently you call it a failure because in neither simulation did both terrorists die. I say, and I imagine most other conservative libertarian types here would say the same thing im about to say here, "so what?" better to die trying to save your life and others around you, than to die with a whimper. one is courageous, the other is cowardly.


Liar

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/11/2015 4:02:14 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The guy at the Walmart if you recall...would disagree. He's dead and it took several police to take out the perp(s).

The idea that an armed citizenry would stop most of this shit let alone any govt. is unmitigated bullshit.

The greatest chance for any armed citizen, is of being killed themselves...not stopping people out to kill.

Unmitigated bullshit......supported by the facts.

Yep,what he said is supported by the facts.
Though it surprises me to see you admit this.
Why you refer to it as "unmitigated bullshit" though is beyond me.
Is that some local backwoods idiom thing or something

No the "unmitigated bullshit" is what is supported by the facts not his claim, which anyone should be able to tell.
The reason that you find so few mass killings stopped by armed citizens is that they stop them before they qualify as a mass killing.
Common knowledge, I am somewhat surprised that even you would know this.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: So armed civillians would have stopped recent terro... - 2/11/2015 4:03:51 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not in Texas, by the look of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-terror-attack-simulation-conducted-in-texas-by-gun-group/

Another old chesnut bites the dust.


except for that in some instances, gun owners actually do stop terrorist attacks. and in many instances, stop other murders from occurring. but you ignore those because they don't fit your narrative.

what's more---so the people in the simulation learned how challenging it was---and they will continue to learn until they get better at it.

last thing, apparently you call it a failure because in neither simulation did both terrorists die. I say, and I imagine most other conservative libertarian types here would say the same thing im about to say here, "so what?" better to die trying to save your life and others around you, than to die with a whimper. one is courageous, the other is cowardly.


Liar

The fact that you disagree does not make him a liar.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 20
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