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RE: War on women - 2/15/2015 9:46:54 PM   
slvemike4u


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I liked the mental picture I drew better .

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RE: War on women - 2/16/2015 6:59:56 AM   
hot4bondage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Some of us dont have our sons cut for those reasons......oh and find fgm to be more barbaric.



Fucking great.......... some people get their info from Hot4Bondages link...... Not only is it unbiased, much it is bullshit.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Circumcision/Pages/Advantages-and-disadvantages.aspx



Uh, our links seem to be on the same side of the debate. Here's a quote from yours...

"However, there are much more effective and less invasive ways of preventing these conditions. For example, practising good hygiene to prevent UTIs, or using a condom to prevent STIs. Read about when circumcision may be necessary for more details. Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision."

< Message edited by hot4bondage -- 2/16/2015 7:06:22 AM >

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RE: War on women - 2/16/2015 7:03:10 AM   
bounty44


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now there is an interesting question there---what happens when culture and law conflict?

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RE: War on women - 2/16/2015 8:33:29 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

now there is an interesting question there---what happens when culture and law conflict?

Apparently you have people trying to force women thru legislation to give birth.
You also have circumcision being legal.


More than 125 million girls and women alive today have been cut in the 29 countries in Africa and Middle East where FGM is concentrated.
Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types.
Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, or outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.

Oh and it predates Islam by several hundreds of years.
Antiquity
Spell 1117
But if a man wants to know how to live, he should recite it [a magical spell] every day, after his flesh has been rubbed with the b3d [unknown substance] of an uncircumcised girl ['m't] and the flakes of skin [šnft] of an uncircumcised bald man.
— Inscription on Egyptian sarcophagus, c. 1991–1786 BCE[140]
The origins of the practice are unknown.[141] Gerry Mackie has suggested that it began with the Meroite civilization in present-day Sudan; he writes that its east-west, north-south contiguous distribution in Africa intersects in Sudan, and speculates that infibulation originated there with imperial polygyny, before the rise of Islam, to increase confidence in paternity.[142] Historian Mary Knight writes that there may be a reference to an uncircumcised girl ('m't), written in hieroglyphs, in what is known as Spell 1117 of the Coffin Texts:

The spell was found on the sarcophagus of Sit-hedjhotep, now in the Egyptian Museum, and dates to Egypt's Middle Kingdom, c. 1991–1786 BCE. (Paul F. O'Rourke argues that 'm't probably refers instead to a menstruating woman.)[143] The proposed circumcision of an Egyptian girl, Tathemis, is mentioned on a Greek papyrus from 163 BCE in the British Museum:

Sometime after this, Nephoris [Tathemis's mother] defrauded me, being anxious that it was time for Tathemis to be circumcised, as is the custom among the Egyptians. She asked that I give her 1,300 drachmae ... to clothe her ... and to provide her with a marriage dowry ... if she didn't do each of these or if she did not circumcise Tathemis in the month of Mecheir, year 18 [163 BCE], she would repay me 2,400 drachmae on the spot.[144]

The examination of mummies has shown no evidence of FGM. Citing the Australian pathologist Grafton Elliot Smith, who examined hundreds of mummies in the early 20th century, Knight writes that the genital area may resemble Type III, because during mummification the skin of the outer labia was pulled toward the anus to cover the pudendal cleft, possibly to prevent sexual violation. It was similarly not possible to determine whether Types I or II had been performed, because soft tissues had been removed by the embalmers or had deteriorated.[145]

This is one of the customs most zealously pursued by them [the Egyptians]: to raise every child that is born and to circumcise [peritemnein] the males and excise [ektemnein] the females ...
— Strabo, Geographica, c. 25 BCE.[146]
The Greek geographer Strabo (c. 64 BCE – c. 23 CE) wrote about FGM after visiting Egypt around 25 BCE (right).[146] The philosopher Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – 50 CE) also made reference to it: "the Egyptians by the custom of their country circumcise the marriageable youth and maid in the fourteenth (year) of their age, when the male begins to get seed, and the female to have a menstrual flow."[147] It is mentioned briefly in a work attributed to the Greek physician Galen (129 – c. 200 CE): "When [the clitoris] sticks out to a great extent in their young women, Egyptians consider it appropriate to cut it out."[148]

Another Greek physician, Aëtius of Amida (mid-5th to mid-6th century CE), offered more detail in book 16 of his Sixteen Books on Medicine, citing the physician Philomenes. The procedure was performed in case the clitoris, or nymphê, grew too large or triggered sexual desire when rubbing against clothing. "On this account, it seemed proper to the Egyptians to remove it before it became greatly enlarged," Aëtius wrote, "especially at that time when the girls were about to be married":

The surgery is performed in this way: Have the girl sit on a chair while a muscled young man standing behind her places his arms below the girl's thighs. Have him separate and steady her legs and whole body. Standing in front and taking hold of the clitoris with a broad-mouthed forceps in his left hand, the surgeon stretches it outward, while with the right hand, he cuts it off at the point next to the pincers of the forceps.

It is proper to let a length remain from that cut off, about the size of the membrane that's between the nostrils, so as to take away the excess material only; as I have said, the part to be removed is at that point just above the pincers of the forceps. Because the clitoris is a skinlike structure and stretches out excessively, do not cut off too much, as a urinary fistula may result from cutting such large growths too deeply.[149]
The genital area was then cleaned with a sponge, frankincense powder and wine or cold water, and wrapped in linen bandages dipped in vinegar, until the seventh day when calamine, rose petals, date pits or a "genital powder made from baked clay" might be applied.[150]

Whatever the practice's origins, infibulation became linked to slavery. Mackie cites the Portuguese missionary João dos Santos, who in 1609 wrote of a group inland from Mogadishu who had a "custome to sew up their Females, especially their slaves being young to make them unable for conception, which makes these slaves sell dearer, both for their chastitie, and for better confidence which their Masters put in them." The English explorer William Browne wrote in 1799 that the Egyptians practised excision, and that slaves in that country were infibulated to prevent pregnancy.[151] Thus, Mackie argues, a "practice associated with shameful female slavery came to stand for honor."[152]
wikipedia history on FGM In antiquity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Antiquity

Unicef, WHO, UN and various other international parties have been fighting against this cultural practice since 1997
Britain stopped it happening in the UK in 85, but actually enforcing the law is practically impossible, a bit like finding a body mod artist who will declit your submissive or castrate your male sub.
A bit like sex trafficking children....its there, thriving, but catching it, is another issue.




Edited to add
Because of the federal law in the US prohibits FGM, citizens and refugees in the US take their daughters to their country of origin to have the procedure performed. In April 2010, legislation was introduced in congress to attempt to make transport of girls for FGM illegal, and still pending.

Individual US States with legislation against FGM

California- AB 2125 (Figueroa and Lunneen)
Delaware- SB 393 (Henry)
Illinois- HB 3572 (Mulligan-Deuchler)
Michigan- HB 6095
Minnesota- 144.3872
New Jersey- ACR 35
New York- A 5010
North Dakota- SB 2454
Rhode Island- S 2317 (Perry, Cicilline,Parella,Graziano and Gibbs)
Tennessee- SB 2394 (Crutchfield)
Texas- H.B. 91 (Giddings, Thompson, Chavez, Clark)
Wisconsin- 365

States whose anti-FGM bills did not pass:
Colorado- 96-031
New York- S 597 (Volker, Montgomery), S 510 (Volker, Montgomer)
South Carolina- 7769


< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 2/16/2015 9:00:34 AM >


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RE: War on women - 2/16/2015 8:53:45 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

now there is an interesting question there---what happens when culture and law conflict?

The offender gets arrested,the rest of the community sticks it's collective heads in the sand and carries on .At least here anyway

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: War on women - 2/16/2015 3:04:57 PM   
MariaB


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My sister works for "Daughters of Eve" and has campaigned tirelessly educating women about the consequences of female castration both in the UK and Somalia The Gambia and Senagal. She has witnessed first hand the barbaric procedures that go on in corrugated iron huts where young girls are held down and without anaesthetic, cut with old and often rusty razorblades. The spread of HIV amongst these young girls is huge because one blade is repeatedly used.

She's always said that its not pressure from the men but pressure from the older women in the tribes and its usually the mothers choice, not the fathers.

For those who say its often just a snip to the clitoral hood, I would argue that many African circumcisions are the entire inner and outer labia. Basically there is nothing left. But even if it was just a snipping of the clit, the clit has around 8,000 sensory nerve endings...pain from such an act causes a life time of trauma.

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RE: War on women - 2/16/2015 4:00:20 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Some of us dont have our sons cut for those reasons......oh and find fgm to be more barbaric.



Fucking great.......... some people get their info from Hot4Bondages link...... Not only is it unbiased, much it is bullshit.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Circumcision/Pages/Advantages-and-disadvantages.aspx



Uh, our links seem to be on the same side of the debate. Here's a quote from yours...

"However, there are much more effective and less invasive ways of preventing these conditions. For example, practising good hygiene to prevent UTIs, or using a condom to prevent STIs. Read about when circumcision may be necessary for more details. Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision."


If you think our links are from the same side of the debate, you should have gone to Specsavers. Your link is biased while the NHS one isnt.


< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 2/16/2015 4:02:03 PM >

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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 6:21:20 AM   
hot4bondage


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You're confusing advocacy with bullshit. When someone picks a side it doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong. Both links are well-documented and they come to the same conclusion.

My link: "Not one medical association in America, or anywhere else in the world, recommends infant circumcision; some even recommend against it. At no time in its 75 years has the American Academy of Pediatrics ever recommended infant circumcision."

Your link: "Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision."

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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 6:29:04 AM   
Lucylastic


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So its just a cruel cultural thing


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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 7:11:14 AM   
tweakabelle


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Actually clitordectomies were performed on women and girls in various parts of the West until the early part of the 20th century. It was 'indicated' where said women and girls were determined to be 'suffering' from the insidious syndrome called 'Masturbation Mania'.

It seems that projects to control the sexualities of females knows no boundaries.


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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 3:38:49 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

You're confusing advocacy with bullshit. When someone picks a side it doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong. Both links are well-documented and they come to the same conclusion.

My link: "Not one medical association in America, or anywhere else in the world, recommends infant circumcision; some even recommend against it. At no time in its 75 years has the American Academy of Pediatrics ever recommended infant circumcision."

Your link: "Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision."


Your link is still biased.........look the word up.

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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 4:54:52 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

You're confusing advocacy with bullshit. When someone picks a side it doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong. Both links are well-documented and they come to the same conclusion.

My link: "Not one medical association in America, or anywhere else in the world, recommends infant circumcision; some even recommend against it. At no time in its 75 years has the American Academy of Pediatrics ever recommended infant circumcision."

Your link: "Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision."


Your link is still biased.........look the word up.



it would be much better for all involved who are reading, and especially me too, if you would actually use the definition and clearly explain and illustrate exactly how her link is "biased"

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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 6:06:55 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Okay,I'll bite ...cause I would rather stay and agitate for change than leave my country to the collective wisdom of the....oops,we're right back here again

The wisdom of those who think that for all that's wrong with it, it's mainly right...And have differing ideas than you on how to fix what's wrong.

But the point of this thread was female genital mutilation. On the one hand, you have a group who defies the laws of the Western countries they live in and take their daughters where it's still allowed.

On the other hand, you have medical practitioners who advocated its and were supported by the law right up to the 60's. The practice, by one group, is to control the sexuality of women. The practice, by the other group, was to "cure" a whole host of "psych-sexual" ailments.

One group operates out of a twisted religious mindset. The other operates out of a mistaken scientific mindset. Biggest thing in common...they're both wrong.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 2/17/2015 6:56:58 PM >

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RE: War on women - 2/17/2015 7:41:07 PM   
Aylee


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Wow. The thread is dead until I go camping. And now look at it. Wow.

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RE: War on women - 2/18/2015 1:15:19 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

[....]
But the point of this thread was female genital mutilation. On the one hand, you have a group who defies the laws of the Western countries they live in and take their daughters where it's still allowed.

On the other hand, you have medical practitioners who advocated its and were supported by the law right up to the 60's. The practice, by one group, is to control the sexuality of women. The practice, by the other group, was to "cure" a whole host of "psych-sexual" ailments.

One group operates out of a twisted religious mindset. The other operates out of a mistaken scientific mindset. Biggest thing in common...they're both wrong.


Generally I agree with the points you have made in your post.

I was surprised to see that you declined to state that the medical approach to FGM was part of attempts to "control the sexuality of women". Perhaps this was an oversight on your behalf.

I would appreciate your clarifying your position on this question : Do you regard the FGM interventions by psychiatry and other medical professions were an attempt at controlling the sexualities of women, and should be seen in this context ? Your post seems to identify the motive as "a mistaken scientific mindset". While this perversion of science played a part, don't you agree that the driving force that created this scientific error was the perceived need to control the sexualities of women? If this is not your position could you please outline your thoughts and reasoning on this question?

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RE: War on women - 2/18/2015 7:17:57 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

[....]
But the point of this thread was female genital mutilation. On the one hand, you have a group who defies the laws of the Western countries they live in and take their daughters where it's still allowed.

On the other hand, you have medical practitioners who advocated its and were supported by the law right up to the 60's. The practice, by one group, is to control the sexuality of women. The practice, by the other group, was to "cure" a whole host of "psych-sexual" ailments.

One group operates out of a twisted religious mindset. The other operates out of a mistaken scientific mindset. Biggest thing in common...they're both wrong.


Generally I agree with the points you have made in your post.

I was surprised to see that you declined to state that the medical approach to FGM was part of attempts to "control the sexuality of women". Perhaps this was an oversight on your behalf.

I would appreciate your clarifying your position on this question : Do you regard the FGM interventions by psychiatry and other medical professions were an attempt at controlling the sexualities of women, and should be seen in this context ? Your post seems to identify the motive as "a mistaken scientific mindset". While this perversion of science played a part, don't you agree that the driving force that created this scientific error was the perceived need to control the sexualities of women? If this is not your position could you please outline your thoughts and reasoning on this question?

While I do agree that the need to control the sexuality of women was no doubt at the base of the introduction of this abominal procedure into medical "science", I also know...from my studies concerning medical "science" at various times throughout our history, this base would have been (and was) buried under and covered up by the medical belief that they were attempting to "cure" an "ailment". My real belief is the reason for the quotation marks used in the posts.


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RE: War on women - 2/18/2015 7:20:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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Thank you for that clarification. I'm glad we agree.

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RE: War on women - 2/18/2015 7:35:11 AM   
Lucylastic


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yes masturbation was an illness, and women lost their clitoris's because they were "nymphos" and masturbating excessively..
Oh the evils of women:)


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RE: War on women - 2/19/2015 9:31:46 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

it would be much better for all involved who are reading, and especially me too, if you would actually use the definition and clearly explain and illustrate exactly how her link is "biased"



No it wouldnt be better, since it would mean those that don`t get it wish to be spoon fed. The answer would be read the link and work it out for yourself.

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RE: War on women - 2/19/2015 9:33:30 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

yes masturbation was an illness, and women lost their clitoris's because they were "nymphos" and masturbating excessively..
Oh the evils of women:)

Yes. For shame...

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