RE: What happened in Denmark? (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/15/2015 6:40:10 PM)

Look who you're talking to...I see a gun thread and it's like a red cape's been waved.
Maybe one day I'll share why




bounty44 -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/15/2015 6:47:50 PM)

feel invited to send me a private message to that effect anytime---our personal experiences go a long way in shaping who we are and what we believe...




slvemike4u -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/15/2015 7:16:55 PM)

I might take you upon that one day...of course anything gleaned from a private message must remain private,but that goes without saying,right [:)]




BamaD -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/15/2015 7:53:49 PM)

FR
While there seems to be little information coming out of Denmark the police currently say that they believe that it was the same shooter at both sites, that he was indeed a "copycat" as Kdsub suspected, and that he had just been released from prison two weeks ago having been convicted of several crimes including weapons charges.
Any one have any other information on this, either confirming or conflicting with this report.




Marini -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/15/2015 8:30:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I see it as nothing more than a copycat of the French Charlie Edbo episode.


Seems rather similar to me also.
I have an issue with sayiing, "nothing more" though.




tweakabelle -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:12:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

in the back and forth sniping, I think we've maybe missed this, which I like enough to post again:

what seems to be at the heart of the matter is the all too often violent response by muslims towards anyone who does a characterization of Muhammad.

which leads me to ask a deeper question---to what extent is it accurate to say that "islam is a religion of the sword?"


Asking questions is always good they say. Asking the right questions if you seek informative answers is a good policy. There are a few flaws in the questions you are posing that militate against productive answers.

Firstly, it's not "the all too often violent response by muslims" we are discussing here. It is the violent response by an individual Muslim in Denmark. If you want to broaden it, as you obviously do, then the way to go is to refer to "the all too often violent response by some muslims" or by "Muslim extremists". That's the difference between an accurate observation and an over the top generalisation.

Once that adjustment for accuracy is made, you then need to make the case that the violent Muslims in question are representative of their religion. Only when that connection has been established does the question "[Is] Islam is a religion of the sword?" become available for discussion (presuming of course that you wish to engage in a rational discussion. If you prefer not to engage in a rational discussion, then none of the above applies)




Kirata -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 1:15:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

you then need to make the case that the violent Muslims in question are representative of their religion. Only when that connection has been established does the question "[Is] Islam is a religion of the sword?" become available for discussion

Well there's no need to wait for that...

Rather obviously, some interpretations of Islam lead to a "religion of the sword." The lynchpin of these interpretations is the (unfortunately) canonical Doctrine of Abrogation -- "Whenever We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, we replace it by a better or similar one. Know you not that Allah has power over all things?" -- by which later verses on a subject "abrogate" or take precedence over earlier ones.

Since the Koran's most objectionable passages are the chronologically later "sword verses," a little abrogation goes a long way. There are disputes over how many verses, and which ones, are abrogated, but there is nothing un-Islamic about forms of Islam that practice a religion of the sword, and no reason to think that violent Muslims don't represent exactly the brand of Islam they proudly claim to represent.

K.




bounty44 -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 2:55:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

in the back and forth sniping, I think we've maybe missed this, which I like enough to post again:

what seems to be at the heart of the matter is the all too often violent response by muslims towards anyone who does a characterization of Muhammad.

which leads me to ask a deeper question---to what extent is it accurate to say that "islam is a religion of the sword?"


Asking questions is always good they say. Asking the right questions if you seek informative answers is a good policy. There are a few flaws in the questions you are posing that militate against productive answers.

Firstly, it's not "the all too often violent response by muslims" we are discussing here. It is the violent response by an individual Muslim in Denmark. If you want to broaden it, as you obviously do, then the way to go is to refer to "the all too often violent response by some muslims" or by "Muslim extremists". That's the difference between an accurate observation and an over the top generalisation.

Once that adjustment for accuracy is made, you then need to make the case that the violent Muslims in question are representative of their religion. Only when that connection has been established does the question "[Is] Islam is a religion of the sword?" become available for discussion (presuming of course that you wish to engage in a rational discussion. If you prefer not to engage in a rational discussion, then none of the above applies)


I agree with everything you just said, and while I wasn't really posing the questions with an intent to have actual conversation about them, I think kirata below you, and above this, did a good job starting...




bounty44 -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 4:11:07 AM)

a little bit long but to the very point:

"The new issue of Dabiq, the Islamic State English-language magazine, is officially out... One area where ISIS profoundly disagrees with Obama is his characterization of them as 100 percent non-Islamic, would-be extremist hijackers of a pastoral faith. “Islam is the Religion of the Sword, Not Pacifism,” one Dabiq article declares, helpfully including a picture of a sword, just in case anyone does not get the point... They are quite picky about the proper definition of “Islam” as meaning “submission,” not “peace.”"

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/12/religion-of-the-sword-isis-magazine-heavy-on-crusades-propaganda/

"Islam: Religion of the sword?

"Unlike Christianity or Judaism, Islam's religious history is inseparable from its conquests -- which is why the concept of holy war lives on today.

"The unfortunate truth of the matter is that Muslim violence against the civilian populations of other religions goes right back to the origin of Islam in the 7th century A.D. According to Islamic holy texts, Muhammad himself presided over the extermination of the Jews of Khaybar in 629, an event that the Quran calls a “glorious victory” (48:1). (To be fair, some historians have questioned the historicity of this massacre.) In addition, despite the later evenhandedness of rulers like Saladdin, the original Islamic conquest of Jerusalem was a bloody affair, as was the introduction of Islam to North Africa and India.

"… jihad is historically and textually ambivalent. It could be interpreted as a simple struggle with oneself, like wrestling with your conscience. It could also, however, be interpreted as acts of physical violence against non-Muslims. There might be rules regarding civilian noncombatants — and then again, there might not be. The idea of jihad, like many ideas in the Quran, is a Janus-faced idea with two or more possible interpretations, all supported by scripture. Historically, numerous interpretations have been drawn from the Quran in relation to jihad by different groups with different agendas. A Rorschach test.

"To an extent, this ambivalence exists in many religions, including Judaism and Christianity. Muslims are not the only ones to have waged wars in the name of religion. So have Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. The validity of the comparison ends there, however. It seems plain that Islam is confronted by the problem of religious violence in ways that other religions are not. In the world today, the locus of most religious violence is the Muslim world. And Islam is the only religion that has spawned a wandering group of holy warriors, traveling from conflict to conflict fighting the enemies of Islam wherever they see them —

"There are some who say that the real antagonists are fundamentalism and modernity, that the real conflict is between a medieval mind-set and a modern one. In a recent New York Times Magazine article, Andrew Sullivan stated, “This surely is a religious war — but not of Islam versus Christianity and Judaism. Rather, it is a war of fundamentalism against faiths of all kinds that are at peace with freedom and modernity.”

"There is some truth to this, but it does not fully explain the situation. Fundamentalism, as a literal and nonhistoric approach to religious scripture, exists in every tradition, but only in Islam does it go hand in hand with widespread violence…

"The fact of Muslim military might is the rock on which the entire community of the faithful is erected. The Muslim state, with Muhammad at its head, predates the collection of the Hadith (narrations about the life of Muhammad) and the writing of the Quran itself. In Islam, it is not the religious message that promotes the faith into the halls of political power as in Judaism and Christianity, it is an original state of political and military strength that promotes the religious message.

"Looked at this way, jihad is not a secondary concept in the development of Islam — something grafted onto the original religious message — rather it is the very origin of Islam, the sine qua non of the faith."

http://www.salon.com/2001/10/11/sword/

the question of “is islam truly of god” is another question, but a very related and an absolutely essential one. or put another way, does the Koran have historicity? is it an historically authentic document?

put in an absurd way for illustration purposes, I can claim I have relevations from an angel, put them in writing, find some people to follow those writings, and 1400 yrs later, have a billion people believing it on faith alone. does that suffice?




Sanity -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 6:31:14 AM)


quote:

They are quite picky about the proper definition of “Islam” as meaning “submission,” not “peace.”"


This is a self evident truth, despite all of the far left talking points, disinformation and propaganda preaching the exact opposite to us. Some of it coming from the very top... Barack Obama himself.

Very good post. Goes straight to the heart of the matter.




slvemike4u -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 8:47:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

in the back and forth sniping, I think we've maybe missed this, which I like enough to post again:

what seems to be at the heart of the matter is the all too often violent response by muslims towards anyone who does a characterization of Muhammad.

which leads me to ask a deeper question---to what extent is it accurate to say that "islam is a religion of the sword?"


Asking questions is always good they say. Asking the right questions if you seek informative answers is a good policy. There are a few flaws in the questions you are posing that militate against productive answers.

Firstly, it's not "the all too often violent response by muslims" we are discussing here. It is the violent response by an individual Muslim in Denmark. If you want to broaden it, as you obviously do, then the way to go is to refer to "the all too often violent response by some muslims" or by "Muslim extremists". That's the difference between an accurate observation and an over the top generalisation.

Once that adjustment for accuracy is made, you then need to make the case that the violent Muslims in question are representative of their religion. Only when that connection has been established does the question "[Is] Islam is a religion of the sword?" become available for discussion (presuming of course that you wish to engage in a rational discussion. If you prefer not to engage in a rational discussion, then none of the above applies)

Or perhaps you could ask about the conditions in which these young men grow up that leave them so susceptible to the message of jihad.
Both here and in Paris what you had were essentially young punks,minor criminals headed towards long criminal records(rather than the petty criminal records that they possessed)till some radical message intervenes.
Maybe if society itself could find a way to intervene their budding criminal careers could be interrupted in a more positive mainstream way.Instead we throw them,while they are still young,into prisons where they are low hanging fruit for a radical message




Lucylastic -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 10:02:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

They are quite picky about the proper definition of “Islam” as meaning “submission,” not “peace.”"


This is a self evident truth, despite all of the far left talking points, disinformation and propaganda preaching the exact opposite to us. Some of it coming from the very top... Barack Obama himself.

Very good post. Goes straight to the heart of the matter.

OMG Obama is a muslim again, not only that but he is the head Cheese ....gawd bless his cotton socks.




Sanity -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 10:24:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

They are quite picky about the proper definition of “Islam” as meaning “submission,” not “peace.”"


This is a self evident truth, despite all of the far left talking points, disinformation and propaganda preaching the exact opposite to us. Some of it coming from the very top... Barack Obama himself.

Very good post. Goes straight to the heart of the matter.

OMG Obama is a muslim again, not only that but he is the head Cheese ....gawd bless his cotton socks.


Check your reading comprehension. Had I written anything like "Obama is a Muslim" you might have a point




lovmuffin -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 11:58:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Look who you're talking to...I see a gun thread and it's like a red cape's been waved.
Maybe one day I'll share why


Maybe you should share it. A bull and a red cape describes some of your emotional responses on gun threads quite well. I mean a veiled accusation feeding off Lucy's post that a member (Kirata and then supposedly a fuck up on the quote button, *twice*, that was meant for me) making some sort of suggestion that I would shoot someone's face off was way over the top.




slvemike4u -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:17:46 PM)

Lol,another poster trying to incite me to argue....
I'll pass,enough folks saw the post wherein you suggested a bullet to my head would "cure" me of my afflictions .
It's all good,I hold no grudges,as far as I was concerned it was par for the course when talking to responsible gun owners [:D]




lovmuffin -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:39:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lol,another poster trying to incite me to argue....
I'll pass,enough folks saw the post wherein you suggested a bullet to my head would "cure" me of my afflictions .
It's all good,I hold no grudges,as far as I was concerned it was par for the course when talking to responsible gun owners [:D]


That was another poster who said that. You responded with something about just inserting the bullet via surgery. After that I came in volunteering my service and also stating I'm a brain surgeon. I even used a sarcasm emoticon on the brain surgery thing if that didn't clue you in. I would never suggest such a thing as you're saying. You should go back to see who it really was now that you've made two wrong guesses.

ETA: Come to think of it, that post was removed as were all the ones relating to it. But it wasn't me. I can see now why you're always messing up with facts.




slvemike4u -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:44:55 PM)

Okay,you know what,I do owe you an apology....you did jump in and offer your surgical skills(I believe I said I'll pass)....I'm sorry,why I keep insisting it was you I have no idea .
My bad,thats twice,thrice I've made that claim....and even now while scratching my head I can't remember the actual poster
I'm really sorry,and a bit embarresed




slvemike4u -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:47:22 PM)

As far as going back to see who it was....it's not worth it...If it's never mentioned to me again I wouldn't mind.
I know I won't be revisiting it, if it's left to the dustbin I would appreciate it...


Again I'm sorry for identifying you with a post you never made




Moderator3 -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:56:58 PM)

FR

Okay, I have to do this publicly. This is not a correction, but more for information so that members understand a few of the guidelines.

Please don't post about moderator actions or posts/threads that have been removed. They were removed for a reason and the same reason applies to discussing them.

What sometimes plays into this is talking about a member that has been moderated. There are privacy concerns here.

I will need to lock and clean, but am in a meeting, so it may take a few or many. [:D]

Thank you





lovmuffin -> RE: What happened in Denmark? (2/16/2015 12:57:12 PM)

No problem though I'm curious as to what it was that makes you so emotional when it comes to this subject. I'm not saying I would stop refuting your logic of which there isn't much but I might stop poking a stick and drop the snark.




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